Category talk:Japanese particles

Romaji

Should the romaji version of particles be here or should they only be listed under [[Category:Romaji]]? Rodasmith 04:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The last I heard, the transliterations don't meet our CFI. --Connel MacKenzie T C 04:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that CFI note. It corrects my misinterpretation of the following recommendation in Wiktionary:About Japanese#Hiragana, Romaji, English translation:

[A]ny phrase or term expressed in Japanese should also contain a hiragana version (for people that haven't developed much knowledge of Japanese kanji, but know the alphabets), romaji version (for people who don't know any [J]apanese, but wish to be able to pronounce the word), and English language translation[...].

I had misinterpreted that to mean that we should create a romaji entry and a hiragana entry for each kanji entry, but I now see that it only recommends to show romaji and hiragana within each existing Japanese entry. After I edit my recent entries so that the hiragana and romaji text links to the kanji entries instead of to the newly created hiragana and romaji entries, I would like to delete my new romaji and hiragana entries en masse. Is there an easy way for me to do that? Rodasmith 17:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Particle positions

Each particle seems to be able to follow only certain types of words. For example, ばかり (bakari) can follow nouns and both the perfective (た, -ta) form and the conjunctive (て, te) form of verbs. ほど (hodo), on the other hand, follows both nouns and adjectives. Should particle entries list the parts of speech that the particle can follow? If so, how should we format that information? Rodasmith 05:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

ほど can also follow verbs, as illustrated by this Google search.

Looking at the ほど entry as an example, I would recommend the following:

• Change the === Hiragana === heading to === Particle === instead to clearly indicate the part of speech. As I've argued over at Wiktionary_talk:About_Japanese#Hiragana and romaji in entries and more succinctly at Talk:on'yomi#That dreaded "rōmaji" heading, labeling an entry as Hiragana adds no useful information, and obscures the proper part of speech.
• Before the sample sentences, add a ==== Usage notes ==== subheading. Write some boiler-plate (perhaps a template?) like All Japanese particles are post-positional. This particle is used as follows:, and then a list of bullet points, such as * After verbs:, with the relevant sample sentence(s) indented directly below the bullet point.

Incidentally, this structure (POS and then Usage) is suggested by the "Expert blank template". I often search for a non-existant word and click the "Expert blank template" button when I can't remember what headings and what order to use. Of course, sometimes we need to deviate from this given the special considerations due to the structure of Japanese (the template suggests that Usage notes should come after the sample sentences, for instance), but it's a good starting point nonetheless. Have a look around the template itself if you'd like. Just be sure not to hit [Save page] by mistake! :)

By way of example, I just created a revised version of the ほど entry over at User:Eirikr/Scratchpad. Give a look and see if that helps flesh out what you're thinking. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 20:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I definitely support changing the POS for particles to "Particle", per the discussions you mention above. BTW, are all particles 和語 (wago)?

I like the clarity of your usage notes, but it seems that it would be nice to associate the POS that the particle modifies with the definitions. I'm not sure how best to show that, but here is an attempt. I'm not a big fan of how indented the examples become, but what do you think? Rodasmith 21:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

So far as I know, yes, all particles are 和語. They are integral to the very nature of the Japanese language, and are not likely to be exchanged for any borrowings from another tongue.

Looking at your example, I like it. This also fixes a problem I saw with my layout proposal, which is what to do if there are multiple kanji / meanings for a single particle -- it would be difficult to correlate the usage example sentences with the relevant kanji / meaning, especially with a subheading stuck between them.

The one suggestion I can think to tweak your layout before going live is to change the intro sentence about particles. Instead of what you have now:

Like all other Japanese particles, ほど (hodo) is post-positional.

I'd suggest:

Like all other Japanese particles, ほど is post-positional.

This is more for technical reasons and ease of implementation than anything -- if we drop the romaji (which is already included in the line just above), we can make a simpler template:

Like all other Japanese particles, '''{{PAGENAME}}''' is post-positional.

This would require no parameter input, making it easier for editors to use. Does this work for you? Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 22:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that works fine, because the romaji will always be shown immediately above the template. Rodasmith 22:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)