Talk:автобус

change

1. What's wrong with using the example the template? Why did you remove it? Is there a discussion somewhere about that? Please explain yourself.
2. According to the rules of Russian National Corpus, you MUST refer to it if you're using its materials. You removed the reference, that's a violation.

-- Wesha 19:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The Russian examples have to be translated. There was nothing that I saw that explained to me where the material came from. If you borrowed it from some source, you have to reference it in English. The only part that can be in Russian is the example itself, and it has to be translated. If these are copyrighted examples, it might be a good idea to write your own examples. After all, there is nothing special about the examples, and you could probably write them yourself faster than you could make a reference. —Stephen 19:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

False on most of the counts:

• There was nothing that I saw that explained to me where the material came from

Лы́жники во́зле университе́та сади́лись в авто́бус.Д. А. Гранин|Месяц вверх ногами (1966, NCRL) -- don't you see it says "as quoted per..."?

• If you borrowed it from some source, you have to reference it in English.

Don't you see I AM referencing it in English?

• The only part that can be in Russian is the example itself, and it has to be translated.

1. Is there such a rule? Link please?
2. For all I know, the name of the book/author is supposed to be in the same language as the quote. Especially if there's no established English translation.

• there is nothing special about the examples

There is something special; they're coming from the scientifically recognized corpus, rather than out of my humble mind.

-- Wesha 19:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

This is English Wiktionary. Everything must be understandable to an English-speaker who knows little or no Russian. You would have to be able to read Russian well in order to be able to understand your examples as you put them.

No, there is NOTHING special about them. They are just ordinary language, and do not really even illustrate the meaning or usage of the word. The examples are intended for Russian speakers, but we require examples that are crafted for English-speakers who probably do not know Russian very well. —Stephen 19:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

No, they are not ordinary. Out of thousands in the corpus, we specifically select those that are most illustrative. Here, I I selected the ones that show that: a) the bus can be boarded (садились в автобус) and can be driven (автобус подъехал). Still, if you think they're so poor, why did you keep them and not provide something LESS poor? -- Wesha 19:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

For the same reason, we do not italicize Russian here. Only the English can be italicized. Too many people cannot read italicized Cyrillic, so we don’t use it. When we make examples, we just make them up ourselves. There are only a few special cases of antiquated terms that would benefit from a quotation from a literary piece. Most things need to be on the order of "My name is John. I have a red pencil."

If you want to use these examples, you need to make them without italics, using the {{Cyrl}} template, and you will need to do something with the part that goes "Месяц вверх ногами by Д. А. Гранин" to make it understandable to a reader who doesn’t know much Russian. Also, instead of the diamond bullets, we use #: for our examples. —Stephen 20:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. That's why I made it a template, so if you do not like how it looks, you can modify the template so it conforms to what you want. I'm going to make that change right now. -- Wesha 20:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

How's this? -- Wesha 20:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

That won’t do. I don’t know HML or whatever language you use for templates. You need to translate "Месяц вверх ногами by Д. А. ГранинМесяц вверх ногами by Д. А. Гранин" into English, and you still have to show the English translation of the example. You still need the {{Cyrl}} template to make it look reasonable to most of us. If you can’t make an acceptable example, you may need to take this to the Beer Parlour. Someone there will be able to modify your templates. —Stephen 20:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Wesha, we already have an established format for literary quotes: please look at 𐎠𐎼𐎷𐎡𐎴 (a-r-mi-i-n) or Ἀρμενία or Վահագն (Vahagn). There is no need for additional template. --Vahagn Petrosyan 20:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. I see. Quite possible. I don't see why you didn't templateize it to date. -- Wesha 20:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess because we don’t use quotes that often here. Instead, we prefer short usage examples, collocations and phrases you can see in хуй or собака. --Vahagn Petrosyan 20:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I certainly cannot downplay the importance of short and clear examples, but then again, look at Վահագն (Vahagn)... I believe that both approaches have their merit. -- Wesha 23:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

We do want quotes here, but we also want clear simple examples that don't require so much knowledge of the language to interpret. Take a look at Latin ūnus for an example of another non-English quote. For all quotations, we always want the first line to identify the source material, the second line to provide the quotations, and for non-English quotations the third line provides an English translation. This is standard quotation format for all entries here. --EncycloPetey 23:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)