Talk:بارود
Info for posterity[edit]
Martirosyan tentatively says that Armenian վառոդ (vaṙod) may reflect an earlier form of bārūt/d with a v-, but that more research is needed to confirm. For the alternation he compares վաճառ (vačaṙ) vs բազար (bazar), վատթար (vattʻar) vs բեթար (betʻar). --Vahag (talk) 07:35, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Plausibility of برود origin[edit]
I don't have a formal citation for this (although a published dialectical-Arabic dictionary could do the job), but the a>ā change occurs on a much wider basis and can be observed in the following cross-dialectical words.
(I'm recalling them from my Lebanese dialect, but the first three alterations are absolutely present outside Lebanon -- not positive about the last, but it's at least there in Lebanese)
- خاروف /xaːruːf/ lamb
- from خروف /xaruːf/
- عامود /ʕaːmuːd/ pole
- from عمود /ʕamuːd/
- يانسون /jaːnsuːn/ anise (in Lebanon /je̞ːnsuːn/)
- from ينسون /jansuːn/
- ياهود /jaːhuːd/ Jews (in Lebanon /je̞ːhuːd/, although I think less common overall than the below "original" pronunciation)
- from يهود /jahuːd/
The clear pattern here's that Classical Arabic CaC(C)ūC words have by-and-large shifted to CāC(C)ūC — I noticed this pattern myself and in fact came to the بارود page to check whether it was a result thereof. For this reason I'm inclined to believe the برود etymology.
If we could additionally get definitions going for غاسول and فاسوخ, plus their (presumable) original forms غسول and فسوخ, that'd be great (I asked a Maghrebi acquaintance but have yet to hear back, although in any case he isn't exactly a citable source) 174.254.195.120 04:42, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- For the record's sake I'll mention that this was my message, way back before I started using my account. Extra notes:
- يَانْسُون (yānsūn) is also semi-standardized, which I hadn't realized at the time.
- The validity of the first two shifts is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the existence of the plurals خَوَارِيف (ḵawarīf, ḵwārīf, “goats”) and عَوَامِيد (ʕawamīd, ʕwāmīd, “poles”).
- Along with Persian جنوب (jonub, not janub), this is one of the things that helps show that Arabic جَنُوب (janūb, “south”) probably developed an alternate form جُنُوب (junūb) at some point or another. The Levantine word for "south" is جنُوب (jnūb), not janūb & jānūb. M. I. Wright (talk) 09:25, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
- I know that, but the reverse also happens, that a pattern KāLūM ends up being KaLūM, this is in Egyptian Arabic most prominent, فَانُوس (fānūs) becoming فَنُوس (fanūs) and the like everywhere, hence the reverse change would also be hypercorrection (it’s multicausal). In Egyptian Arabic one isn’t able to distinguish the endings ـَة (-a), ـَا (-ā), ـَاء (-āʔ) either. I see a general phenomenon here, hence I wrote these sounds merging in unstressed position in dialects. Can’t think of other patterns now, long unstressed vowels do hardly occur in Arabic pattern – KāLūM is neither one originally but borrowed from Aramaic and because of the huge number of Aramaic borrowings with this pattern it went into use in the Arabic dialects already in the Early Middle Ages, you might have observed that formations with it are more common dialectally. Hence it is difficult to know that غَسُول (ḡasūl) is the original and غَاسُول (ḡāsūl) is all a corruption of it; and the pattern غَاسُول (ḡāsūl) is early too, occurring in what has been edited from an 11th century manuscript by Christian F. Seybold 1900 as Glossarium latino-arabicum ex unico qui exstat codice Leidensi undecimo in Hispania saeculo conscripto (1991 published by Corriente as El léxico árabe estándar y andalusí del “Glosario de Leiden”, who glosses it in his Dictionary of Andalusi Arabic as “potash, glasswort”), used by botanists like Ibn al-Bayṭār, and this is only what I can find with ease. I see one غَسُول (ḡasūl) in Muwaṭṭaʾ ʾimām Mālik but I don’t know if the formations from the root aren’t independent. The Classical dictionaries also tend to overclassicize the forms: “KāLūM is boo, hence we have it KaLūM” (as they do for غ س ل (ḡ-s-l). Fay Freak (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2019 (UTC)