Talk:お父さん

お父さん

(Moved from User talk:TAKASUGI Shinji — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC))

I just reworked the entry some, especially the etym. While おもうさま does have the same meaning, I'm confused about how it's relevant to the development of おとうさん -- that seems pretty clear from a couple different dictionaries I've looked at (Shogakukan, Daijirin, and Daijisen), which generally agree on a progression from おととさま to おとっさん to おとうさん. The only source I've seen so far that mentions おもうさん is the JA entry at ja:おとうさん, with that etym added in 2007 by ja:利用者:Mtodo.

Do you have any more detail about a possible おもうさま connection? Curious, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

It was okay to revert it. Actually I’m not sure whether おもうさま is relevant. However, I’m sure おとうさん is not from おとっさん; such phonological change is very unlikely to have happened. おとうさん was created as a class-neutral term in the beginning of the 20th century [1][2]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:27, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Aha, thank you again. FWIW, Shogakukan's entry for おとうさん notes:

• （明治末期以後、国定教科書により、それまでの「おとっさん」に代わって広く一般に用いられるようになった語）

then in おとっさん:

• （「おととさま」の変化）

Daijirin has a bit of a gap, as the おとうさん entry doesn't explicitly mention おとっさん:

• 〔明治末期以後「お母さん」とともに国定教科書で用いられ一般化した語〕

then in おとっさん:

• 〔「おととさま」の転〕

I can't read your first source, as unfortunately the content seems to be region-locked; at any rate, all I get is a message that I'm not allowed to see the content. The goo.ne source also mentions おとっさん and is pretty close to the Shogakukan and Daijirin explanations put together.

The おとっさん form is widely attested, and seems to have a role to play in the formation of modern おとうさん, so leaving that out of the etym entirely seems incomplete somehow. The おとっさん > おとうさん shift might not be a naturally-occurring sound shift, but it does still seem to be how the word evolved...

One of my Japanese teachers years ago was trying to explain more formal-style letter writing to me, and one thing she said was that geminate consonants were somehow gauche and should be avoided. Do you think a similar sense of class affected the Monbushō's wording decision in the late Meiji? Perhaps the おもうさま + おとっつぁん description at ja:おとうさん was intended to describe an intentional class-neutral coinage in the late Meiji era, using the general consontantal structure of おとっつぁん / おとっさん but with the longer vowel and avoidance of geminate consonants seen in おもうさま?

Thank you so much for your help! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

If geminates were more awkward than long vowels, おとっさん would naturally change to おとうさん, but that is probably not the case. There are rather phonological changes from a long vowel to a geminate, such as オーケー → オッケー, and long vowels are more easily lost, such as おてんとうさま → おてんとさま. Considering those tendencies, I think the long vowels in おとうさん and おかあさん were introduced by analogy of おもうさま and おたあさま. But I have no evidence now. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Ta, thanks once more. I'd noticed that long-to-short shift in borrowed words with long ending vowels, like コンデンサー > コンデンサ etc., but I hadn't been aware of the long-to-short + gemination trend.

I suppose it's fine to leave the etym as-is until any of us find out more details. Should we move/copy this thread to the お父さん talk page? Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I have moved the discussion here. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC)