Talk:ちょうだい

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Classification[edit]

I'm a bit surprised to find ちょうだい is classified as a verb. Yes, that's right, it's a verb. But I can hardly find a reference, at least in Japanese... — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:11, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Hmm, it's used functionally the same as 下さい (​kudasai), with the only real difference being one of register. As a cut-and-dried verb, it can take する, but on its own, I wouldn't class this as a verb. That doesn't correct. All verbs in Japanese have inflectional endings; this (minus the する) doesn't.
Shogakukan calls this a noun that can take する. When used at the end of a phrase and without any inflectional ending, they describe this as a kind of command-form verb. In that sense, it could be viewed as 頂戴しろ, abbreviated or contracted to drop out the しろ bit. しろ itself is very brusque, so this might be parsed as a way of softening the command.
I'll rework this to add in the する form, and add a usage note to that to explain that this can be used as a soft command by dropping the する. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:21, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Arrowred.png Also, there are numerous other terms written in hiragana as ちょうだい but with very different kanji spellings and meanings, so the request ちょうだい information really belongs on the kanji page as the lemma form. I'll move it there. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:22, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
It is a common misunderstanding to view ちょうだい as an abbreviation of 頂戴する. ちょうだい means "give me", where the implicit subject is the addressee, and 頂戴する means "I receive". You say 私それをちょうだい ("give it to me") and 私それを頂戴した ("I received it"). In addition, ちょうだい can be an auxiliary as in 教えてちょうだい while 頂戴する cannot. They must be separate entries. As for the classification, ちょうだい is clearly a verb in a point of view of function, but I know Wiktionary follows the traditional grammar and you can classify it as a noun, like デジタル大辞泉 does. Your merger of ちょうだい with 頂戴する is just wrong. There are some words that are morphologically invariable but are syntactically verbs, such as ごらん and おいで. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to change it. You might be a bit confused though, as I did actually list it as a verb over on the 頂戴 page. It looks pretty clear that the etymology of this usage of 頂戴 is derived semantically from 頂戴する. C.f. http://www.fleapedia.com/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E9%9F%B3%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83%87%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9/%E3%81%A1/%E9%A0%82%E6%88%B4%E3%81%A8%E3%81%AF%E4%BD%95%E3%81%8B/ among others. If you can shed any further light on this, such as when this usage might have first appeared, it would be most appreciated.
That said, organizationally speaking, I think the main entry should still be over at 頂戴 with a usage note about the spelling -- there are so many other terms read as ちょうだい, it makes more sense to keep the hiragana spelling as a disambig page. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I’m not against moving the entry to 頂戴. I’d just like to separate 頂戴する and 頂戴. I’m not sure whether my edits are easy to understand ([1], [2]). — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks, I'll take a closer look tomorrow. My initial impression is that classing this as a noun, but with a definition that uses verbs, doesn't quite fit somehow. That said, I understand your reservations about listing this directly under the する form. I'll also see what more I can find about the history of this usage. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:08, 24 February 2014 (UTC)