Talk:cold

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Tea room discussion[edit]

Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.

The UK pronunciation is listed as /kəʊld/, but I am pretty sure that most UK dialects don't use a schwa in the first half of the diphthong; instead using something more akin to ʌ, if I am right. Nwspel 21:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

In some SE dialects it's more like [ɐ], but [ʌ] seems to be pushing it – perhaps in Essex or Medway(!). But anyway, this is probably quibbling over allophones again – virtually everyone calls the phoneme /əʊ/ and it might seem weird for Wiktionary to be alone in redefining it. But feel free to join the discussion at Wiktionary talk:Pronunciation. Widsith 21:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The schwa is, I believe, the canonical representation of the first half of this diphthong in RP. It isn't necessarily representative of all UK accents, but it's not far off the way I pronounce it (and my accent is a fairly even mix of northern and southern). In contrast I don't hear [ʌʊ] as being at all familiar when I speak it. Thryduulf 22:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
RP pronunciation would use ɐ for the first vowel (not sure how you would transcribe the second); so they certainly don't use a schwa, which would be a rather odd sounding vowel to pass over like this. What I am struggling to understand however, is the difference between the sounds of these: ʌ, ɐ... and a... :S Nwspel 22:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
RP does NOT use [ɐ], it transcribes this diphthong as /əʊ/, which I agree seems weird when you first encounter it. The differences between the sounds you mention are not very big -- remember that IPA is to a greater or lesser extent a continuum, and the symbols are only really defined in relation to each other. But basically, [ʌ] is the sound in hut, but (it is not common in other European languages, and developed late in English...it wasn't part of Shakespeare's speech for example). [ɐ] is not usual in English dialects but might be part of some diphthongs....it's similar to schwa, and if you speak German it's the -er sound at the end of words like Wasser ("water"). [a] is a more open sound than the other two – it's the sound in UK-English man, bad, and in French la, and in Spanish casa etc etc. (In the US, and in received pronunciation, this sound is a more close [æ]). Widsith 09:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok that makes sense. But which diphthongs would use ɐ then? Nwspel 09:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Hang on... "a" isn't the IPA for the UK pronunciation of "man" O_o Nwspel 22:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
That depends where you look. The OED have certainly adopted it. Widsith 22:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
What's the one used in Estuary English? Nwspel 07:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
[a]. Widsith 07:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Is this conversation done? I have another one started below and would like the link. Please remove #Pronunciation to retain the link. DCDuring TALK 21:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Tea room discussion[edit]

Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.

"I knocked him out cold." I read this as an adverb, meaning "with finality". Several others have read this as an adjective.

"The steel was processed cold." also seems to have "cold" as an adverb.

"He read for the part cold." also. Thoughts? cold#adverb. DCDuring TALK 21:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about "out cold"; can you think of other examples where "out" is followed by an adverb that modifies it? I think it might be an idiom from which we can't easily infer part of speech. —RuakhTALK 00:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I read it as an adverb modifying the phrasal verb "knock out". Does "out like a light" fit the bill? DCDuring TALK 02:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I think "knock out" and "out cold" are both fixed idioms, here combined and sharing their "out". You can definitely say, "He's out cold; I've been trying to wake him for hours. I don't think that "out like a light", "out on the dance floor", "out in the cold", etc. don't say one way or the other, because prepositional phrases can be used both as adjectivals (or whatever the word is) and as adverbials. —RuakhTALK 03:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm guessing that in "the steel was processed cold", it's a delayed adjective; compare "Never go to bed angry" or the (admittedly nonsensical") "He went to bed hungry and in the morning woke up dead", for example. —RuakhTALK 00:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Most of the substitute wordings I would use for this seem adverbial to me: "while cold", "in a state of cold". Not that I trust my readings. It is not just that the steel was cold, it is that the process works in a "cold" state, not adding (much) heat to the steel. DCDuring TALK 02:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but "while cold" = "while it is cold". I agree that "cold" could describe the process, but I think that in this case it only describes the process insofar as it describes the steel undergoing it. (But it's really hard to tell, and semantic arguments aren't a great way to identify part of speech, anyway.) —RuakhTALK 03:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
w:steel-processing is divided into hot processing and cold processing. "Hot-rolled steel" and "cold-rolled steel" are the products. Not the combining forms, which clearly show modification of the participle. See w:Cold rolling. DCDuring TALK 03:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
To "cold press", "cold iron", "cold work", "cold draw", "cold process", "cold treat", and "cold form" are some instances of "cold" serving adverbially as I read it. I suppose you could say that all of these are idiomatic, .... DCDuring TALK 03:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I would think that some of those you've listed are set phrases or idiomatic compounds deserving their own entries, rather than the mere combination of a verb and cold. All the similar sorts of examples I come up with (where the "Verb" is second) turn out the same way, e.g. dry clean or deep freeze. It seems that the norm in English is that an adjective form is used ahead of the verb in these cases, at least so long as the following verb also has a noun sense to it. So, I'm not sure that any of these really help answer the question at hand. --EncycloPetey 04:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
If at half a dozen phrases (and I haven't really pushed the search) are constructed in the same way it seems like a helluva stretch to say they are all just idiomatic. Cold (and hot) + material-processing verbs form phrases this way. That seems like a grammatical rule to me. "Dry" and "wet" work the same way with other kinds of processing verbs. "Deep" and "shallow" might also with a different set. "Hard" and "soft" also. In all these cases, I think, it the process that is being differentiated. DCDuring TALK 05:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree about "He read for the part cold." —RuakhTALK 00:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean that you agree it is an adverb or agree it is a delayed adjective? You could say: "He read for the part unprepared." couldn't you? --EncycloPetey 04:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I mean that I agree it's an adverb; if I were "agreeing" it is a delayed adjective, who would I be agreeing with? :-)   In "He read for the part unprepared" that's probably an adjective — you can also say "He read for the part while unprepared", "He was unprepared when he read for the part", etc. — but "He read for the part while cold" or "He was cold when he read for the part" or the like would have a very different meaning. —RuakhTALK 22:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)