Talk:dried fruit

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dried fruit

Am I being unreasonable to say that this is just dried + fruit? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:56, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

  • I think that you are. For instance, a recipe for Christmas Cake says "a pound of dried fruit" - you would add a mixture of currants, raisins and sultanas but not a dried watermelon. SemperBlotto (talk) 19:05, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
    Or even drought-desiccated currants. Also, see dried fruit at OneLook Dictionary Search. DCDuring TALK 19:10, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
A recipe calling for "large eggs" does not mean fish eggs. Entry, anyone? Equinox 19:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
See large eggs at OneLook Dictionary Search. There seems to be something different about adjectives that are about size, color, and similar attributes that makes them much less likely to lead to lexical compounds. DCDuring TALK 19:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep. This is precisely the same argument I made (and lost) to keep my entry of mixed fruit. While mixed and dried can apply to any fruit, this entry is about specific list of ingredients prepared in a specific way. There's lots of other culinary names that could be judged to be sum of parts, but it's the style and preparation method that makes them specific.--Dmol (talk) 19:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep as presently defined, with the kind of fruit being "small" and the purpose being "preservation" (presumably to be eaten later). Obviously if there is a question as to the correctness of this definition, RfV is the place to answer it. bd2412 T 22:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know what's meant by small, but "dried fruit" packages I've seen have included pieces of pineapple, mango, papaya, and apple. So I think the current definition ("Small fruit that have been preserved by drying") is wrong: it'd have to be "Fruit that have been preserved by drying". This seems not to be SOP if it's accurate. I wonder though whether grapes with black rot (current redlink), for example, are called dried fruit. But, yeah, if not then keep.​—msh210 (talk) 07:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Delete. Failing that, RFV to prove that any dried fruit is dried fruit, then re-RFD. - -sche (discuss) 09:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Delete. I would believe that dried banana slices or bits of papaya are dried fruit, aren't they? --Hekaheka (talk) 18:47, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
It's a type of product, to me it's like "pickle". Yes, any fruit that is dried and is used as food can be called "dried fruit" but it's still a distinct dish. Noteably, German, Russian, Chinese and Japanese have separate words for "dried fruits". German Trockenobst (not "trockenes Obst"), Russian "сухофрукт" (although "сушёный фрукт" is also OK) is another proof that "dried fruit" is a word, not a free collocation. The Japanese have borrowed "ドライフルーツ" (doraifurūtsu) as one word. Can we keep it at least as a translation target? Don't forget dried fruit at OneLook Dictionary Search, per DCDuring. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:20, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
re Trockenobst: German makes compounds of a lot of things that aren't idiomatic in English; even Trockensand (dry sand) is attested. - -sche (discuss) 04:51, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, if you wish to take German out of this, although there are some subtle differences between collocations like "kaltes Wasser" and words "Kaltwasser" but that difference is already escaping me, as I'm not actively learning or using German. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Show me that it's a distinct dish. Just like mixed fruit, I see no evidence that "dried fruit" has any established meaning beyond provincial interpretations of what fruits you dry. I think we could do this with almost any culinary terms; you don't pickle that (well some people do), you don't make bread out of those grains (here's a recipe).--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:30, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep. This is a specific food - it just happens to be two words in English. Deleting it would not make our dictionary any more useful. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:46, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Delete Understanding Food: Principles and Preparation has a column on the subject that starts "Drying has been used as a method of preserving fruit for thousands of years. Commonly dried fruits, in descending order of popularity, include raisins, processed fruit snacks, prunes, and apricots." I don't see anything in that sentence that implies that certain fruits, if dried, would not be dried fruit. The Big Book of Self-Reliant Living has a section on "Reconstituting Dried Foods" that starts with "Dried fruits and vegetables may be reconstituted..." as part of a larger section on drying food; again, I don't see anything that implies that only certain fruits, once dried are dried fruits. US Import schedules uses the phrase "dried fruit" and looking at the whole of it, I'm pretty sure that it means "fruit that has been dried". Hindustani Kitchen: Recipes for Non-Vegetarian and Vegetarian Indian Dishes lists "melon seeds" under dried fruit. Putting Down Roots: Gardening Insights from Wisconsin's Early Settlers tells us that "The Citron Melon or Citron Watermelon is an early ancestor of the watermelon. The very firm white flesh can be cut into pieces and cooked in sugar syrup to make the American version of candied citron, which is used as a dried fruit.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:03, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't that source itself indicate that "dried fruit" is fruit that has been dried intentionally, for purposes of preservation (and later consumption), rather than fruit that was left out and go dried up so as to be inedible? In other words, not all "fruit that is dried"? bd2412 T 12:10, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
I suppose a fried egg is implicitly one that's been fried on purpose, not by accident. Your scenario is more likely but not linguistically any different, is it? Mglovesfun (talk) 17:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
And a painted house is one that has been painted intentionally, not one that has had paint spilled upon it. In any case, that doesn't support this definition.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:30, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
We would keep fried egg; as for a house that has had paint spilled on it, that would be the case if this was merely "fruit" which is "dried", but it the definition as stated is fruit that has been "preserved" by drying. I suppose this could apply without an intentional act, as with insects being preserved in amber, but that could be remedied by tweaking the definition to make explicit the fact that preservation is the purpose for which drying is carried out. bd2412 T 03:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't get why? I see evidence that dried fruit generally comes from a certain group of fruits and is intentionally preserved. I don't see evidence that the phrase dried fruit means that, merely that that is the most common context of dried fruit.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I doubt that any recipe which called for "dried fruit" without further elucidation would be satisfied by fruit that had just gotten dried out through some non-preservative means. bd2412 T 04:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I doubt most recipes that call for milk would be satisfied by milk that had been left out in the sun all day. Or that most recipes that call for eggs would be satisfied by fertilized, almost hatched eggs. Or that salt means finely ground salt, not chucks of salt. The recipe for banana bread just says "3 or 4 ripe bananas, smashed" and doesn't mention peeling them. Should we add another definition for banana for that?--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I doubt that milk that had been left out in the sun all day would be called "milk", since it would no longer be a recognizable liquid, but would instead be a stain where that liquid had once been. bd2412 T 03:00, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm having trouble finding a recipe that calls for "dried fruit" without immediately clarifying the kind of fruit it wants. (Since all of the recipes I've looked at do clarify, it may interest you to know that apricots were mentioned by 5, raisins by 4, cranberries by 3, apples, cherries and pears by 2, and bananas, currants, dates, figs, lemons, mangos and plums/prunes by 1.) Nonetheless, I'll accept that someone could write a recipe for fruitcake that called for "dried fruit" without clarification, and that they would then be horrified (as bd says) if someone used "fruit that had just gotten dried out through some non-preservative means". So what? If a recipe called for a cup of frozen blueberries, its author would probably be bewildered if I took a cup out into a snowstorm and filled it with wild blueberries; does that make [[frozen blueberry]] idiomatic? Like the recipe Prosfilaes looked at, the recipe I looked at that called for bananas failed to specify that they should be peeled before use, so I repeat Prosfilaes' question: must we add a sense to [[banana]]? - -sche (discuss) 04:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
You can leave milk in the sun without it evaporating away, just like any other liquid. It's clearly milk, just spoiled.--Prosfilaes (talk) 08:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Keep. At least usefull as a translation target. Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 15:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
Generally unsure, but there seems to be 'reasonable doubt' about this term, in which case we should keep it. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:05, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Weak keep, per Mgl. However, I wonder if the definition at dried should be tweaked. Or do we include dried meat, dried fish? We don't have smoked fish, because smoked has an adequate definition. -- ALGRIF talk 15:53, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep per Tooironic. I don' understand so much reasoning for something which is clearly a term of the language. The same applies to fruits secs in French. Lmaltier (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know about the French entry, but really, the definition in this entry is wrong (as mentioned above), because any fruit (big, small, even nuts) preserved by drying (in the sun, in an oven, whatever method) is "dried fruit" . So really, it is very, very SoP, except that we don't have the definition "means of preservation" under the entry at dried. -- ALGRIF talk 16:17, 1 March 2013 (UTC) Also, I wouldn't really recommend it as a translation target either, looking at the definitions in French and Spanish.

Kept. There's, at the worst, no consensus here.​—msh210 (talk) 18:10, 22 April 2013 (UTC)