Talk:positive

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Copied from an out-of-date Websters? Needs formatting.

From WT:RFC[edit]

needs formatting Where was this taken from? Looks like Websters, but is it a copyright violation? — Paul G 16:40, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC) I have attempted to initiate this process; the page was an absolute mess. Some of the content has been temporarily relocated to the Discussion page and the senses have been reordered to better reflect common usage. The latter will necessitate reordering of the Finnish analogues. Continuation will proceed later. Velociped 17:18, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have made an entry at positive law for the law stuff and have removed that from the talk page. Andrew massyn 12:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

relocation for reformatting[edit]

Scratch Pad[edit]

relocated from article to facilitate reformatting

positive law Created an article for positive law and removed the query here regarding this. and linked to article page.
  1. (Photog.) Corresponding with the original in respect to the position of lights and shades, instead of having the lights and shades reversed; as, a positive picture. <-- this is a misapplication of the noun sense.
It appears in Websters as an adjective. I have shown the sense and re-added as an adjectival definition. Andrew massyn 16:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
  1. (Chem.) <-- this is a duplicate of the noun sense.
    • Electro-positive.
    • Hence, basic; metallic; not acid; -- opposed to negative, and said of metals, bases, and basic radicals.

Changed the def from chemistry to physics and given an example as per SB.

  1. (Vehicles) Designating a method of steering or turning in which the steering wheels move so that they describe concentric arcs in making a turn, to insure freedom from side slip or harmful resistance. <-- this is a specific application of the fourth sense in the article. The fourth sense is "Progressing in a circular manner; motion similar to that of a clock." which has been deleted as per discussion Engineer See rfv page to be appended later. Andrew massyn 18:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Are these not all derivatives and thus populating their own entries?

{Positive electricity} (Elec), the kind of electricity which is developed when glass is rubbed with silk, or which appears at that pole of a voltaic battery attached to the plate that is not attacked by the exciting liquid; -- formerly called vitreous electricity; -- opposed to negative electricity.

Put it under "see also" Andrew massyn 07:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

{Positive eyepiece}. See under Eyepiece.

{Positive motion} (Mach.), motion which is derived from a driver through unyielding intermediate pieces, or by direct contact, and not through elastic connections, nor by means of friction, gravity, etc.; definite motion.

{Positive philosophy}. See w:Positivism.

{Positive pole}.

  • (Elec) The pole of a battery or pile which yields positive or vitreous electricity; -- opposed to negative pole.
  • (Magnetism) The north pole. [R.]

{Positive quantity} (Alg.), an affirmative quantity, or one affected by the sign plus [+].

{Positive rotation} (Mech.), left-handed rotation.

{Positive sign} (Math.), the sign [+] denoting plus, or more, or addition.

Full discussion from rfc[edit]

This page has been on WT:RFC for two years. Time to clean it up. I think it is an adjective as it would describe for e.g. a battery or electricity itself. Regrettably I failed science at school, and that was a 30 years ago! So would someone with more nous than me please help. Ta Andrew massyn 16:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

  1. (Chem.) # (Chem.) <-- this is a duplicate of the noun sense.
    • Electro-positive. Having more protons than electrons.
    • {Positive electricity} (Elec), the kind of electricity which is developed when glass is rubbed with silk, or which appears at that pole of a voltaic battery attached to the plate that is not attacked by the exciting liquid; -- formerly called vitreous electricity; -- opposed to negative electricity.
    • Hence, basic; metallic; not acid; -- opposed to negative, and said of metals, bases, and basic radicals.
  • The noun sense is:
  1. Denoting an excess of protons; alkaline; charged. Not negative or neutral.
  • Well, a cation is a "positive ion" - because it has more protons than electrons and therefore has a positive electric charge. "electropositive" has a different chemical meaning (tending to become positively charged). Rubbing with silk - I know nothing about! Hence, basic etc - this just seems wrong. The last line is either wrong, or adds nothing. SemperBlotto 16:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the definition to physics rather than chemistry, put positive electricity as a ""see also"" to be developed later and struck the last nonsense base metals and basic radicals section for now. Thanks for the feedback.

Andrew massyn 07:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The next question is # (Vehicles) Designating a method of steering or turning in which the steering wheels move so that they describe concentric arcs in making a turn, to insure freedom from side slip or harmful resistance. <-- this is a specific application of the fourth sense in the article. The fourth sense is # Progressing in a circular manner; motion similar to that of a clock. Andrew massyn 07:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the vehicular def is a bit wide of the mark: if a car is described as having positive steering, it means that it feels responsive and precise rather than soggy or indefinite. As such, it is an extension of sense 7, or it may be worth adding a new sense, for mechanisms etc: appropriate, definite, effective. I'll look for some cites, but not today.
Positive steering does not mean that the wheels are all pointing exactly in the right direction. In fact it usually feels best when the outer wheels are set to point in a slightly tighter circle than is actually required. Also, it is not the steering system which makes the wheels describe concentric arcs. Euclidean geometry ensures that any wheels attached to a rigid chassis must do so. They may or may not side slip to achieve this, but while they are attached to the chassis, the arcs must be concentric!
Positive is used in a number of expressions related to steering geometry, in particular, positive camber, positive caster, positive toe (or toe in) and perhaps positive lock or positive steer (more commonly oversteer). However, the camber and caster give no information re whether the wheels are being steered to follow concentric arcs, while positive toe, and arguably positive lock, imply that the wheels are actually being steered to deviate from the intended route, so that they can only follow the arcs which the rigid chassis actually constrains them to follow by side slipping and/or flexing their rubber tyres.
Also, positive feedback, occasionally suffered in front wheel drive cars when accelerating in reverse, or if there is a fault in power-assisted steering or there is negative caster, actually tries to pull the steering wheel to tighten the turn, so cannot be what is defined.
As for the more general sense 4 Progressing in a circular manner, I have never heard it. If an object is circulating, then in many cases, eg clocks, compass bearings, clockwise would be taken as the positive direction, and anticlockwise as the negative, but that is far from universal (eg it is not relevant to the defs of the angles for positive camber, etc above). OED does not mention any sense of progressing in a circular manner, so unless someone else can find it used, I would omit it. --Enginear 17:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the comprehensive response. I will delete the 4th sense for cars and the clock sense.(for now). Perhaps if you are feeling strong, you can add a vehicular def at a later stage? This really helped. Andrew massyn 18:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


The Third (& last) question Are the below-mentioned not derivitive and therefore needing their own entries?

I have added this as a "see also" as per discussion with SB above. Andrew massyn 18:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I personally dont think so. Andrew massyn 18:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
    • In bateries and things. ?
  • Positive quantity (Alg.), an affirmative quantity, or one affected by the sign plus [+].
  • Positive sign (Math.), the sign [+] denoting plus, or more, or addition.
  • Positive rotation (Mech.), left-handed rotation.
I've expanded and cleaned this quite a bit. Widsith 16:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk moved to article. Andrew massyn 07:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)