Talk:they

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Singular They, and disputation of incorrectness[edit]

I would dispute that the usage notes section, and the use of the adverb "incorrectly" in describing its use as a third person gender-neutral singular. This is by no means indisputedly incorrect.
While the authors of grammar books and English teachers may call the use of "they" as a third person singular "incorrect," English is not a regulated language. As such, such persons have no right to try to define "proper grammar," simply as a result of disagreement in colloquial usage.
Certainly where I live, "they" as a third person singular is quite common.
It makes as much sense, in my mind, for one to dispute the use of "You" as a second person singular as inaccurate, as well as its use as the nominative. "Proper usage," after all once dictated that Ye/You as the plural, and Thou/Thee as the singular.
Languages do change, to the delight of linguists and horror of grammarians. Wictionary, I might also note, is an internet dictionary, and the internet is most surely a source of new words and uses, more than an obstruction to them.

I have checked the page history, and found that both of these items were [added] by a single anonymous user. For the reasons that I have set forth, I shall be bold and remove these items. I post this here as an explanation, and should anybody wish to dispute, post here and I shall most gladly debate the point.

--Quintucket 22:49, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • it may be noted that it is used as such, but it has not yet been widely accepted. In PROPER (as opposed to spoken English) they is only a third person plural. There is no well edited scholarly work that uses the word they in place of he or she or him or her. It is the equivalent of saying that ain't is proper. While it is used regularly, that doesn't make it part of widely accepted standard English, except when noted as slang.--Torourkeus 19:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • another thing I thought of: see usage notes on the singular "they" still using plural verbs.--Torourkeus 08:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I know this is four years later, but I still feel obliged to give a response. As for the scholarly works, you're mistaken: see "everyone had their" Google scholar search for a quick look. And singular they is only singular in the sense that its antecedent is singular. It is semantically singular but inflectionally plural. There is nothing inherently contradictory about this. —Internoob (DiscCont) 01:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
You're wrong on two counts. First, there is no 'PROPER' English. Second, the third person singular 'they' isn't slang like "ain't", and is in fact quite common and unremarked upon in England at least. I'm guessing you're American? I vote to remove the 'disputed' - it is disputed, but I don't think we need to draw attention to the fact because the disputers are wrong! :-P 155.198.65.73 15:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
While I agree that singular they is acceptable usage, we still need the disputed tag for completeness (to explain to the readers what the fuss is about) and for WT:NPOV because it still goes against the grammar sensibilities of many individuals, whether we think they're wrong or not. —Internoob (DiscCont) 00:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

"improved" pronunciation[edit]

How exactly is it an improvement to remove the identifiers of what kind of pronunciation is given? Nohat 16:43, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Basically because this way reduces clutter, keeps the various representations of one prounciation together on one line, freeing other lines to be useful for alternate pronunciations, each accompanied by any homophones and rhymes they might have. With the 3-on-1-line format becoming more common, it becomes a standard and thus not as shocking as the first time you see it.
On this article it's not clear that it helps much. But compare an article which has multiple pronunciations, homophones, and rhymes - such as trait. I hope you can see the improvement a little. — Hippietrail 02:25, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Usage note[edit]

The usage note was inaccurate; many style guides approve of the singular they, especially when the antecedent is something like anyone or everyone. I think we should only briefly touch on the usage, and refer the reader to Wikipedia's article, which has a deeper discussion. Colin 05:07, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

  • I'd note that anyone and everyone are both plurals. --Torourkeus 19:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyone and everyone are singulars. Nobody would think of saying "Everyone are here", or "Are anyone hurt?", would they? (or would he?) —Stephen 19:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You have a point. I did think of something else earlier today though, one problem with using they as a singluar pronoun in formal english is that verbs are still plural. While you are right that nobody would say "Everyone are here," it is similarly unlikely that anyone would say "They is here."--Torourkeus 08:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

translation singular they[edit]

While the use of a "singular they" may be acceptable in English, it seems to me that many of the translations for it are not quite the exact same thing (I can only say so for sure about the French and German ones, but I suspect the same goes for several others).

Paul Willocx 10:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

They as impersonal[edit]

I am not sure, but it seems to me that they is also used as impersonal pronoun not only in cases described in point 3 (They should do something about this.). What about this:

Another essential domain in Russification policy was atheism. They tried to shape the minds of the youth to believe in god-denying and scientific concept of the world.

In this sentence, they would mean not somebody or everybody but those who tried to do it. Is this a correct usage?80.235.62.84 18:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Known-gender they[edit]

The second part of the usage note should be made less prescriptive; the use of "they" with known-gender referents goes back at least to Shakespeare and the King James Bible and is just as common as the any other use. —This unsigned comment was added by 68.180.45.200 (talk) at 2007-08-31T02:54:56.

Thank you for that note. It would really help the article if you could point out a quote from Shakespeare or from the King James Bible. Do you happen to have any available? Rod (A. Smith) 05:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Bad translations for singular?[edit]

I'm not positive, but if I'm not mistaken, on and man (for French and German respectively) don't convey the same meaning as singular they. I have only ever seen on or man used for a generic "you". For example, I couldn't imagine seeing On peut faire... translated as They can do..., only as One can do.... My main point is, as far as I know, on and man (although I'm more sure about on) are only used to refer to generic persons, whereas they is a specific person, except their gender is unknown/irrelevant. If I'm not mistaken, in French, you follow (the rule previously used in English) the rule of using masculine-dominant (as you do if there are multiple objects, at least one of which is masculine, you use the masculine plural, even if the feminine objects are more plentiful) making a person of indefinite gender, il. - Estoy Aquí 00:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In English, we don’t use the construction "one does" or "one doesn’t" very often. It’s very formal and very stiff. Instead, we use "you" (you’re not supposed to do that), "we" (we don’t do that here), or "people" (people don’t write it that way...usually they write it like this), or "they" (they say it’s very good for you). The word they is not so often used in this sense, and, unlike "you" and "we", they usually (but not always) is used after first using people (as I did in the preceding example). Spanish handles these situations with se or with the third-person plural of the verb; Russian uses the third-person plural of the verb; German uses man and the 3rd-person singular of the verb; French likes to use on and the 3rd-person singular. —Stephen 01:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... I don't think the examples you've used there are the best. Both of your examples could be easily construed to be plural for one thing (e.g.: They all say it's very...). Maybe you didn't intend to, but it looks like you were trying to say that they, one and you are interchangeable, while the article explicitly says they aren't (with which I would agree). I know that using they to refer to people in general is correct to translate as on or man because you could recast that usage as one or you. Also, try recasting your example in a true singular and it doesn't make sense (which singular they always should be possible to do with). For example: He says it's very good for you. Then you're talking about a specific person, which you clearly weren't before. I think a better example of what I mean is:
Whoever it was, they're gone now.
While this unknown person, could be multiple persons, it can be recast in the singular without looking strange. If we knew it was one person, and that that person was male, it wouldn't look at all strange (to me) to write:
Whoever it was, he's gone now.
Now, if you try to recast that as one or generic you, I think you'd find it quite difficult. Also my German dictionary (Collins Gem) lists the following German translations for they (not limited to the following, just they are all that's relevant):
(people in general) man (unidentified person) er/sie
As I said, I wasn't disputing the former of those two. The latter is what I was disputing, which my dictionary confirms was the correct thing to do ;). - Estoy Aquí 11:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Inanimate objects[edit]

Doesn't "they" also refer to inanimate objects? A sort of plural of "it" I suppose. As in "I have some apples, they are tasty". --91.110.65.56 01:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they is the plural of he, she and it. They may be masculine, feminine or neither, and may be animate or inanimate. It is a comprehensive 3rd-person plural. —Stephen 01:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

AAVE they=their[edit]

We need the AAVE sense meaning "their", e.g. "my boys never met they daddy". Equinox 13:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems attestable. DCDuring TALK 23:42, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
So now poor grammar gets an entry? Shall we call is a plural form of "to be" since we can attest folks saying you is? --AnWulf ... Ferþu Hal! (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
This isn't bad grammar even; AAVE is non-rhotic like many British dialects. That is the final 'r" is not pronounced. So they are still saying "their" not "they"

201.89.137.95 04:31, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't matter if it is also spelled "they" in works written in AAVE. By contrast, British dialects tend to use standard English spellings, even including r's in words in which they do not pronounce that sound. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:11, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Not a Determiner[edit]

They is a subject (nominative) pronoun. It is NOT a determiner any more than you is a determiner in you two. They are subject pronouns. The byspels that are posted are poor grammar rather proper examples of it being a determiner. Darn'd if they Cockney Chaps can zee there worn't nort but lie in him. Really? How about claiming that worn't is a past tense of "to be"? It would be like posting you is and claiming that is is a valid 2nd person plural verb form and I could eathly find byspels of you is in books. Further, claiming it is a determiner could be befuddling. In "they both", the determiner is "both" not they. I am far from a prescriptist but even I have limits. --AnWulf ... Ferþu Hal! (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree that the citations are both poor. I can't tell if the first one is an intentional use of "they" or a simple spelling error or typo (in the original work) for "the", and the second one is dialectal. But google books:"they people" does get a lot of hits. - -sche (discuss) 21:29, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Singular senses[edit]

I'm not sure if it makes sense to split the singular pronoun into two senses. This became especially noticeable to me after I changed the first definition from "but of unknown irrelevant gender" to "especially if of unknown or irrelevant gender" to reflect the IME fairly common use of they in reference to people of known (even known binary) gender. I wonder if a single sense à la what Timeraner suggested on Stephen's talk page would be best; for example, "A single person, previously mentioned, especially if of unknown, irrelevant or non-binary/genderqueer gender."
Separately, I notice that the plural sense includes "people or objects" while the first sense only includes "a single person". The plural sense can certainly also include animals (which are neither people nor objects), so its wording may need to be tweaked. And I think it would be informative to investigate whether the singular can also be found with an animal or an object as its referent; if it can, I think that might strengthen the case for having just one plural sense "a group previously mentioned..." and one singular sense "a single entity previously mentioned..." (plus the indefinite pronoun sense).
- -sche (discuss) 11:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I notice you changed the definition to say "especially" partly based on the Shakespeare quote—but I don't think the Shakespeare quote is such clear evidence. Rather, I think Shakespeare is using sense 3 of man ("a person of either gender"). It's hard for me to think of a situation where I would use "they" for a single person of known, relevant binary gender—are there any other quotations that support that change to the definition?
I think the reason I prefer to have them as separate senses is that a speaker's idiolect can easily include one but not the other. I naturally use singular they for people of unknown gender all the time, but I still have to consciously remind myself to use "they" for an acquaintance of mine who's genderqueer. (I don't feel too strongly, though—maybe a single sense would be better.)
I would also be interested to see if citations can be found for singular they applied to an animal or object. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:12, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I brought this up in the tea room. Timeraner (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I suppose things partially hinge on what "relevant" / "irrelevant" means in the definition. (The easiest interpretation might be "if a speaker used they to refer to a known-gender person, the speaker must've deemed the person's gender irrelevant", but that'd be circular / self-fulfilling.) Here are two citations of "their dick" where the "them" in question is one "guy", explicitly so labelled (by the context and in one case by the title of the citations). And here is one citation of "their pussy" with a singular referent.
Also, in the Community citation, the gender of the referent is known to the speaker, the speaker is simply choosing not to disclose it, which is another common use of they — think of closeted gay people playing the pronoun game.
I'm not sure if the fact that you have to remind yourself to use "they" of a certain person in indicates different sense, as opposed to a tendency to parse the person a certain way (namely, as a male or female, who would be appropriately described as "he" or "she") and then have to remind yourself "oh, but that's not it". (Kudos to you for making an effort to use the right pronoun!) I've seen people struggle in the same way to correctly refer to a trans woman as "she", a "woman", a "girl", a "waitress" (rather than "waiter"), etc, but that's not a sign we should split all those words into "cis" and "trans" senses.
- -sche (discuss) 21:26, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Good point—the "their dick"/"their pussy" examples convince me that the word "especially" was a good addition.
As for whether to have one or two singular senses—the trans woman example makes it seem that my difficulty with my acquaintance's pronouns doesn't really prove much. The two meanings still feel different to me somehow—in one, you're omitting the person's gender, whereas in the other, you're acknowledging it. But that's probably not enough of a difference to merit two separate senses. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Ah, the pronoun game! I played that in high school without consciously realizing it.. it was something ingrained to avoid harassment. Timeraner (talk - contribs) 13:53, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Re omitting gender vs acknowledging gender: that's a good point, but the phenomenon is "language-wide" (extends to all gendered words, not just pronouns), which is why I tend to think the pronoun only has one singular sense. For example, I might refer to a laconic man by saying "he's a man of few words"; I'd refer to a genderqueer person by saying "they're a person of few words", the same thing I'd remark if I didn't know the gender of e.g. the author of some overly-short instruction manual.
Also, it's worth noting that the other non-he/she third-person pronouns can be used the same way. The 2011 citation of sie has someone self-identifying (and being identified by someone else) using it, while in the 1993 citation it refers to 'any child, of whatever gender'. And the 1997 citation of ey is 'any mobile user', while I could probably find people on [non-durable] Tumblr (and possibly on durable Usenet) who self-identified with it, if the need arose. I think both kinds of use represent the same underlying phenomenon of not gendering the referent (whether because one doesn't know which if any binary way of gendering the referent would be correct, or because one knows that neither way would be correct).
I've taken a stab at rewriting the definitions, including the plural one, which needed to acknowledge the frequent and AFAIK standard use in reference to animals. They may need to be modified further. - -sche (discuss) 20:08, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
As to the question of whether "they" can refer to a single animal, it seems so, although I imagine prescriptivists' heads will explode upon seeing the citations ("but... why not use it's...?! ggaacckk"). google:"bird their beak" has some more examples, though they're not "durable". - -sche (discuss) 23:35, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Pets are frequently discussed in terms of binary gender roles and with gendered pronouns, but they're still animals and cannot have a gender. I support singular "they" because animals are living beings that should be treated humanely. Timeraner (talk - contribs) 13:53, 17 January 2015 (UTC)