Talk:trap

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Comment[edit]

re "comment out supposed adj def"
It was in the 1913 dictionary. Perhaps marking it (obsolete) is better than deleting it?

Question: insnare or ensnare?[edit]

insnare or ensnare? TableTop 28 June 2005 10:42 (UTC)

ensnare is normal, insnare is a variant SemperBlotto 28 June 2005 10:44 (UTC)

Traps--The Police[edit]

In Polanski's Oliver Twist, the characters--especially Bill Sykes--use a word which sounds like "traps" to refer to the Police. As I have not found any other reference to it, nor have I found it in a dictionary, I would be grateful for enlightenment offered by anyone who can! Thank you.--PeadarMaguidhir 13:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Trans slang[edit]

While initially used as a pejorative, I believe we should also recognize that the slang has come to have a positive meaning as well. Much like other terms which have been appropriated for usage by those who do not dislike what the slang refers to. For example, the Guilty Gear character 'Bridget' is often fondly referred to as a trap by many fans. The very idea of 'trap' is that the trans person 'passes' so well that the person believes they are genetically what they appear as physically. For those who are not outraged by this, and when the person acquires extreme attractiveness (like with Bridget, or many trans models in the orient) it is used as an endearing inside joke for those who would like to refer to it, but in a casual fashion which indicates awareness of the normal person's hostile reaction to it. Ty 06:10, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

It is STILL pejorative, because the name implies transsexuals are tricking people.--Voidkom (talk) 16:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

RFV 1[edit]

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Rfv-sense: "An arguably convincing crossdresser, transvestite or transsexual, a person born with male genitalia that one engages in a relationship with, believing that person to have been born with female genitalia."

A definition more fitting an attempt at attestation is "crossdresser, transvestite or transsexual"; the rest seems dubious even before an attempt at attestation has been made.

Edits leading to the current definition (probably incomplete): diff, diff, diff, diff, diff.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 12:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

RFV-failed. Deleted. - -sche (discuss) 18:51, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
I've restored part of the definition per Dan's comments. This new definition should be easily verified, I think. —CodeCat 20:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)


RFV 2 - stepladder[edit]

The following sense failed RFV: "A kind of movable stepladder." - -sche (discuss) 18:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

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Rfv-sense: movable stepladder. This seems like it is probably the same as the Dutch word trap, but I've never heard this word being used in English. —CodeCat 14:39, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

"American Mechanical Dictionary" 1884 [1] Also in an 1826 dictionary [2]. Non-dictionary usages of "trap ladder" abound including [3] from 1832 etc. Appears to refer either to a foldable or moveable ladder, especially one leading to an attic. Collect (talk) 15:08, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "section" is supposed to accomplish, but clicking on the above link just took me to the top of the page. DCDuring TALK 16:39, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I know, but it works the other way around. We currently have two senses of trap for RFV, so to make the RFV link on the entry point to this discussion, I added a section link to distinguish the two. —CodeCat 16:43, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
I see. DCDuring TALK 21:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
My understanding is that uses of "trap ladder" don't verify "trap", so I've removed the sense. If you disagree, let's discuss... - -sche (discuss) 18:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


Deletion discussion[edit]

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trap

Previous discussion: Talk:trap#RFV_1

Rfv-sense: (slang, pejorative) A female crossdresser, transvestite or transsexual.

Added in diff by CodeCat (talkcontribs) on 2 December 2012. I request attesting quotations, at least by means of links to them. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I am very much familiar with this sense, if it helps any. -- Liliana 13:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd like the entry to clarify whether a shemale or a female-bodied person is meant by "female crossdresser". - -sche (discuss) 17:10, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
I think it's more like a genetically male person dressed up as a female for whatever reason. -- Liliana 17:25, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
it's only a crossdressing boy. shemale is shemale (or newhalf in Japanese). Minirop (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I have seen it used in reference to any convincingly feminine individual with a Y chromosome, whether there is hormone modification or not.69.198.206.106
A trap is an idealized young homosexual boy: biologically male (with a penis) but otherwise androgynous, foppishly dressed, possibly prepubescent but definitely under the age of consent. (The word "trap" was used with the same meaning as "jail bait".) This was the original meaning several years ago when it was used for internet drawings. It is now used for any type of a fictional twink. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 14:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. In the realm of erotic Internet drawings, a trap is an underage boy (anatomically male at any rate; one can't tell anything about psychological gender from a drawing of an imaginary person) dressed as a girl. A twink dressed as a male (or completely undressed, for that matter) is not a trap. —Angr 15:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree; my use of twink was misleading. Do you know of any other use except for drawings? I'm thinking of changing the definition to:
(slang) An idealized underage boy, anatomically male but dressed as a female, used primarily in Internet drawings.
--RoyGoldsmith (talk) 06:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd say "used primarily in shotacon manga" or something like that. I don't know enough about the genre to know for sure that such drawings also appear in print, but I'd be surprised if they didn't. —Angr 10:03, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I've seen it online in connection with photographs of people.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:25, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
First of all, this is a 4chan thing, so association with erotic drawings is purely circumstantial and meaningless on a semantical level.
Second of all, the whole point of the term is that the person described with it appears to be a member of the opposite sex that he (or she, for reverse traps) actually is a member of. It not only does not cover all instances of crossdressing, since a male dressed in stereotypically female clothes can still be instantly recognizable as male, it does not even necessarily imply a crossdressing is taking place. I've noticed the earlier definition that mentions this crucial detail has been struck down for whatever reason ("seems dubious", apparently).
Third of all, while I'm not exactly convinced archived 4chan posts are a reliable enough source, they nevertheless exist and contain plenty of uses of the word, including ones that prove my second point above. Let me choose three examples just from today (plus a bonus one from the earliest archives):
"I'm like 50kg, but my face is too manly for trap without tons of make-up." [4]
"Traps don't necessarily identify as not-men either. In fact it implies they are a "trap" (i.e. male and thus not suitable for a hetero relationship), so it's really inappropriate to lump them in with people who are transgender." [5]
"I like trap and don't consider myself gay, science agrees, it's not denial because I don't care if it's gay or not in the first place." [6]
"So I'm organizing my images and I found this, I got it from /a/ but I don't remember, is that a girl or trap?"[7]
So there you have it. Please revert the definition to its earlier version, at the very least. Squeal (talk) 21:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
There are still no citations after two RFVs and several months of discussion, so I have deleted the sense as RFV-failed. Do not re-add it without valid citations. - -sche (discuss) 21:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


RFV discussion[edit]

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trap (verb)

RFV-sense "To crossdress convincingly as a female." I'm not sure how to search for examples of this. See also the old RFV of the noun, above. - -sche (discuss) 21:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Googling for "crossdress trap" gives many results. More if you turn off SafeSearch. (Many more, and very NSFW.) Is the request specifically for the verb sense? I would note that the noun definition is kind of messed up right now: Sense 12 gives a sporting definition, but an example for the otherwise missing crossdressing sense. Which sense is still listed amongst the translations. —Catsidhe (verba, facta) 21:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for catching that. - -sche (discuss) 22:12, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
I suspect that it's not that no-one could find attestations, but that no-one looked. (It does basically come down to googling transvestitism and recording that you did so.) From what I can see, "trap" as a noun meaning specifically "a crossdresser or pre-operative transexual who passes as female" is widespread and common (in the appropriate circles).
Here: have some links from the first page of the google results (SafeSearch on):
More examples are available for the searching. —Catsidhe (verba, facta) 22:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
None of those citations are durably-archived, though. I did try searching for examples in Google Books, but found nothing. There might be citations on Usenet, though. - -sche (discuss) 22:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Also those aren't for the verb trap, these are clearly for the noun. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:36, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
If this passes, how are we going to explain the lack of a noun sense? That'd be a rather glaring omission. —CodeCat 22:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
Too hypothetical for me to answer. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I suspect this usage is new (within the last couple of years), and hasn't had time to get into enough printed works for it to show up on Google Books. And that Usenet is of diminishing use for this sort of thing these days. (The cool kids are all on web fora now.)
Yes, the examples are all for the noun sense: I submit that the noun sense is, despite no-one proving so here, well understood and widely used. As a verb, I suspect only as a back formation from the noun. —Catsidhe (verba, facta) 22:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
I checked Usenet for "trap" and all its inflected forms + crossdresser and crossdress and all their inflected forms. All the uses I found were of other senses of "trap". I have previously checked books. Neither the noun nor the verb seems to be used outside of a few web fora. It seems to be simply too rare to be includable. - -sche (discuss) 23:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. It appears to be widely used and understood in the LGBTQ scene. It is not showing up in books because it is too new. It is not showing up in Usenet because Usenet is simply not useful any more for newer words -- it has over the last few years become largely moribund. When you say "a few" fora, they are fora for crossdressers, transvestites and transexuals. I submit that this term is a known term of art in these communities, and is known outside of it. And no, I'm not going to do more searching on this topic while I'm at work. I'll have another look this evening, and try and get a better handle on what the concept "permanently recorded media" means when the definition excludes precisely those locations where this term is found. I presume you're not claiming that the term is not widely used in the relevant communities, much less that it is not used at all, just that it's not in the predefined allowed references? –Catsidhe (verba, facta) 00:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
I am indeed stating that the term is apparently not used in the sorts of durably-archived media that are allowed by Wiktionary rules (books, magazines, journals, Usenet, songs, films)... and efforts to revisit our rules to allow web fora have been opposed by people who note that it would open the floodgates to all kinds of spelling and other errors. - -sche (discuss) 00:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
... in a way which allowing Usenet does not. (My irony meter just exploded.) I'll have another look when doing so won't get me fired or arrested. –Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
2008 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/transgender-news/WOPR0F3ZomE/discussion
  • "The disturbance started over the word trap. Until recently, I was completely unfamiliar with any use of this word to mean transgender or transsexual people." ... "A couple of younger people in my twitterverse have used the word trap in this way. One trans woman self-identifies as a trap."
That's all I could find in Google Groups, which I must say is a pale shadow of what it was. And I'm surprised to have found so much, because, like I said, this term gained currency since greater Usenet became moribund.
I dunno if this is any common. Usually one would say pass, the respective sense of which I added a while ago. -- Liliana 21:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
From what I've seen, it does not appear as a verb. trap appears as a noun, with a number of qualities, one of which is the ability to pass. So all the above is less a defence of the verb sense (which I think does not apply and can safely be deleted), and more of a "hey, I didn't even realise this sense was going to be deleted from the noun until it had been!" –Catsidhe (verba, facta) 05:06, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Failed. — Ungoliant (Falai) 16:12, 4 October 2013 (UTC)