Template talk:borrowing

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Discussion[edit]

So is it Category:hu:Loanwords or Category:Hungarian loanwords. Actually the first one looks better to my eyes. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The latter in mine. It's a lexical cat, not a topical.​—msh210 (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Move debate[edit]

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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, though feel free to discuss its conclusions.


Template:loanword[edit]

Since my request move of Category:English borrowed words (now Category:English borrowed terms) failed, I'd like to move to this to {{borrowing}} and display borrowing instead of loanword. Anyone object? --Mglovesfun (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't object. (Provided, of course, that the old template is kept as a redirect.) ----Daniel 16:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Why do you want to?​—msh210 (talk) 17:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
I have no problems with that at all. I thought it was strange as well when I first saw it. —CodeCat 17:34, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
In reply to msh210, because it seems confusing to have a template where the template name and its category are totally different. Obviously keep the redirect. Plus, loanword isn't always accurate. There are phrases like idée reçue and crème brûlée which are loans but not really loanwords. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:18, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Passed. Nobody objected. Mglovesfun implemented the proposal today. --Daniel 02:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

t1 parameter[edit]

Can we add a t1= or similar parameter here, with the functionality of {{compound}} or {{suffix}}. This would make things a lot easier. --The Evil IP address 15:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Done. I've called it t and have also added support for the other parameters {{term}} takes: see the documentation.​—msh210 (talk) 16:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Trailing period[edit]

I am thinking of editing this template so that the display ends with a period (the fragments look a little messy in etymology sections; see for example métier#Etymology). Any objections? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I've no objection provided you check all transclusions to make sure adding the period doesn't ruin anything (e.g., {{borrowing|sq|foo}} or {{unk.|title=possibly}} {{term|lang=sq|bar}}. or even {{borrowing|sq|foo}}.). Otherwise, yes, I object strongly.​—msh210 (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
So, basically, you do object. I don't have the ability to check (I've no idea if you do), so it appears this is dead for now. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:11, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
There are only 622 transclusions (I think). A bot can list the ones that don't appear at the end of a paragraph, and if that's few then they can be edited manually.​—msh210 (talk) 07:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't quite have a bot nor AWB access... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I misspoke. You don't need a bot: just someone to scan the dump. Perhaps ask in the GP or at TODO?​—msh210 (talk) 19:29, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I do object. It's much easier to type a period in the etymology, than it is to add extra code to the template to remove it. —CodeCat 19:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
That's also a good point. (No pun intended.)​—msh210 (talk) 21:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

{{{t}}} and {{{4}}}[edit]

{{{t}}} and {{{4}}} do different things:

{{borrowing|eu|lang=sq|foo|t=bar|tr=baz|lit=xyzzy|pos=v}}

displays

Borrowing from Basque foo (baz, bar, verb, literally xyzzy)

whereas

{{borrowing|eu|lang=sq|foo|4=bar|tr=baz|lit=xyzzy|pos=v}}

displays

Borrowing from Basque foo (baz, verb, literally xyzzy) ("bar")

Compare {{term}}, where the positional (unnamed) parameter does the same as {{borrowing}}'s {{{t}}}: shows the word in the parentheses with the other info. I suggest we get rid of {{{4}}} and reinstate it as an alias for {{{t}}}. Thoughts?​—msh210 (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

New idea[edit]

(From borrow#Etymology):

From {{etyl|enm|en}} {{term|borwen|lang=enm}}, {{term|borȝien|sc=Latinx|lang=enm}},
from {{etyl|ang|en}} {{term|borgian||to borrow, lend, pledge surety for|lang=ang}},
from {{etyl|gem-pro|en}} {{recons|burgōną||to pledge, take care of|lang=gem-pro}},
from {{etyl|ine-pro|en}} {{recons|bhergh-||to take care|lang=ine-pro}}.

Lets create two new similar templates, {{From}} and {{from}}. It will be much more flexible:

{{From|enm|[[borwen]], [[borȝien]]|sc=Latinx}},
{{from|ang|borgian||to borrow, lend, pledge surety for}},
{{from|gem-pro|*burgōną||to pledge, take care of}},
{{from|ine-pro|*bhergh-||to take care}}.

The two links at the first line and the reconstructed terms can be handled with Lua (compare Template:l/beta, Lua-ized version of {{l}}).

We can create {{Cognate}}/{{cognate}} similarly. --Z 17:37, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think our current set of templates is ready for that just yet. But I do think it would be good to have different templates for different types of foreign derivation. It's possible to borrow from Latin but the Romance languages also inherited from it, and sometimes there are two words with the same origin, one borrowed and the other inherited. —CodeCat 17:51, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
"sometimes there are two words with the same origin, one borrowed and the other inherited" would you give me an example? By the way, what would be the difference here, in categorization I suppose? --Z 18:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Example: By sound change alone, the word for ´iron´ in Spanish should be hierro (and it is) but as a prefix in scientific terms it has become ferro- instead, due to borrowing. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Oh. So when it is borrowed, the output should be "Borrowing from", otherwise (inherited, derived) "From". It's not cool though when it is repeatedly borrowed: "Borrowing from ..., borrowing from ..., borrowing from ..", we usually use other phrases in the middle, say "itself borrowed from". Since they all have "from" ("borrowing from", "derived from", "from" [inherited from]), so maybe the output of all of these templates (i.e. {{borrowed from}}, {{derived from}}, {{from}}) should be "from" and the user may add whatever s/he wants before it. I'll start working on the templates and the Lua module if more people comment on this. --Z 07:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
But wait, I don't think it's a good idea to mention "borrowing" etc. everywhere, unless when we want to emphasize on it (e.g. in the ferro-#Spanish case). --Z 16:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

What is the purpose of this template?[edit]

This template has been recently used in automated edits replacing the sequence of characters:

From {{etyl|xx|yy}} {{term|...|lang=yy}}...

into this:

{{borrowing|xx|...|lang=yy}}

Additional usages of {{etyl}} in the borrowing chain have been left unaffected. Furthermore, if the etymology section diverges in syntax from the supposed usage, e.g.

Borrowed from either {{etyl|xx|yy}} {{term|...|lang=yy}} or {{etyl|xx|zz}} {{term|...|lang=zz}} (i.e. the case with an indeterminate etymology)

..the template becomes inapplicable. Under the hood it seems to invoke {{term}} by cloning/redirecting its parameters.

If the purpose of this template were to introduce a distinction between loanwords and inherited words, this could've been easily achieved by rewriting {{etyl}} to compare the language donor and the language receiver, and categorize accordingly. Overall, it seems to be a very bad idea to generate by means of templates any kind of multi-word strings to be used in running text. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 09:40, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Automated edits by who? I answered this (incidentally) on User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan where I said that it was originally called {{loanword}} which is a slightly different concept, but my proposal to move Category:English borrowed terms to Category:English loanwords failed, so I moved the template instead. So it's now slightly different to what I originally had in mind when I created it, but that's wikis for you. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:44, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
What exactly is the difference between a loanword and a borrowing? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 09:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Switch to term/t[edit]

That's it, really. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:08, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Why exactly? It's just an alias for {{term}} that has the parameters in a different order. —CodeCat 12:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Imprecise categorization[edit]

Why this template isn't specifying the source language in its categories, like into {{etyl}}? For example, we only got Category:English borrowed terms instead of Category:English borrowed terms from French, like on fr:Catégorie:Gallicismes en anglais. JackPotte (talk) 17:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

We could replace Category:English terms derived from French with Category:English terms borrowed from French, but this could only be done in the long term. And people on Wiktionary tend to not like changes. —CodeCat 19:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
PS: I can do this category improvement 100% myself and it wouldn't change the template utilization, I would just need a consensus. JackPotte (talk) 21:08, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that if it's agreed to do this, then to maintain consistency we'd have to make much larger changes to the category structure. I think this is ok but not everyone might, we have some people here who oppose just about any change. —CodeCat 22:02, 14 December 2014 (UTC)