waithanjan

Jump to: navigation, search

Could you check the dutch etymology of weiden to see if it's actually descended from *waithanjan? Thanks.

Victar (talk)03:02, 28 November 2012

I can't find anything about *waithanjan. It looks like a very strange word, too. I am finding weidon in Old High German, veiða in Old Norse and wǣþan in Old English. The meanings of the French verbs don't make much sense either... why would a verb meaning "graze" be borrowed as "win"? The double -a- seems suspicious too... But the form gaaignier reminds me of a very different verb that exists in Gothic, gaaiginōn, which actually means "to acquire, to take possession of". That matches the meaning much better. So I don't think the current etymology of gagner and varieties is really correct at all.

CodeCat03:29, 28 November 2012
Edited by author.
Last edit: 07:29, 28 November 2012

Yeah, it is a strange one. If you look at the Spanish guadañar (to mow), the root makes more sense. And then there is weidanōn (to hunt, chase), which also exhibits the odd ending. Could it be a merging of the two words?

Looks like weidanōn is from the Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary. http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P2112.html#OHG

Victar (talk)03:50, 28 November 2012

I think if you compare *waithanjan to PG *burþinjō (a burden) and OGH burdinōn (to burden), it actually isn't that strange. Although, *waithinjan may be a better reconstruction.

Victar (talk)06:24, 28 November 2012

It still begs the question why OHG has a class 2 weak verb, though. I mean, if that's what's actually attested, we should probably reconstruct it. Besides, French had no verb chass in -o- so it had to improvise on that.

CodeCat13:33, 28 November 2012

doesn't Old French turn ga- into ja- though (gamba > jambe)? so a form beginning with ga- would be an abnormal if not unlikely candidate (?) Leasnam (talk) 13:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Leasnam (talk)13:43, 28 November 2012

I don't know. That may be true in stressed syllables, but the prefix ga- was unstressed so it may have given a different outcome.

CodeCat13:45, 28 November 2012
 
Edited by another user.
Last edit: 20:05, 30 August 2013

If gaaiginōn came into Old French via Old Provençal, the hard /g/ could have survived.

Victar (talk)17:46, 28 November 2012

But how could it have entered Old Provençal without it being Frankish in origin? Old French is kind of... in the way between them. Of course it's possible that the word came from Alemannic instead. But is it not possible for the g- to have survived? After all if garir has g-, why can't this word?

CodeCat17:50, 28 November 2012

We're talking Gothic, not Frankish. There are plenty of Gothic words that entered Old Provençal and Spanish and not French. garir is from *warjan, so the /w/ > /g/ change is predictable.

Victar (talk)18:03, 28 November 2012

Ok, I see. But still... if w > g survived, then g itself could have survived too. Are there any examples Germanic words with g being borrowed into French with j?

CodeCat18:42, 28 November 2012

When I say /w/ > /g/, I actually mean /w/ > /gu/ > /gu/, /g/. A really good example is gay, which came into Old French from Frankish as jai, but was displaced by gai via Old Provençal, which was from Gothic gaheis (gaheis), both ultimately from the same PGm source.

Victar (talk)19:09, 28 November 2012
Edited by author.
Last edit: 22:26, 2 September 2013

additionally, an example of Germanic g- > j- in OFr is jardin Leasnam (talk) 19:57, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Another is jauge < *galga Leasnam (talk) 22:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Leasnam (talk)19:57, 28 November 2012

I'm guessing this is related to the oddities in the second paragraph of gain#Etymology 3? If French gagner > older gaaignier > Gothic gaaiginōn (gaaiginōn), then any /w/ > /g/ mutation seems irrelevant. And what of Spanish ganar?

Side question, what connection between Gothic gaaiginōn and 𐌲𐌰𐌲𐌴𐌹𐌲𐌰𐌽 (gageigan, to gain, profit)?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig23:29, 30 August 2013