User talk:Alasdair

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Languages you don't know[edit]

Please do not edit languages that you don’t know very well. For instance, Swedish "kille" isn’t masculine, and "*fott in 'Hundsfott'" isn’t German. —Stephen 14:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I beg your pardon.


Kille is the Swedish slang form for a boy. It is used very frequent. It is almost replacing the standard word. Like 'tjej' for 'girl'.

It is used for a boy, but grammatical it is not masculine. Perhaps you mean common. Also, Russian is not written with the Roman alphabet, and we don’t have a language named Servo-Croatian. You probably mean Serbian, in which case you also need the Cyrillic spelling. Persian is now written with its own "ye", which is different from the Arabic "ye". I have heard "Hundsfott" in German, but never "Fott in 'Hundsfott'". It’s not any German that I have ever encountered in my life, and I do not believe it is any other language either. —Stephen 15:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Fott in 'Hundsfott' is German. I do not know if it can used on its own. Like 'vot' in Dutch 'hondsvot'. But the word 'Hundsfott' and 'hondsvot' are words you can find in the dictionary.

Hi Stephen,

Despite your arrogance *smile*, I like to work with you. Your contibutions and corrections are fine.

Illustrerad Svensk Ordbok, Bertil Molde, Stockholm, 1977, tredje upplagan: kille [k-] -en, -ar vardagspråk: pojke, grabb. [ A 'den' ord, so an utrum word (male/female). Etymology: probably from killing = 'young goat' like in English 'kid' ]

It seems to me interesting adding the Dutch and German words 'vot' and 'Fott' to the lemma 'cunt' to show the connexion (Dutch: verwantschap) between the Germanic languages. That is why I put an asterisk for the word to express that the word nowadays probably doesn't exist on its own. But it did in ancient times.

PLEASE, Alasdair! You don’t understand Swedish grammar. The word pojke is NOT masculine, it is common. Swedish is not like Dutch and German, it has no masculine gender. Although pojke refers to a boy, grammatically it is NOT masculine gender ... it is common gender. —Stephen 21:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Alasdair, the etymology goes FIRST. Please stop moving it. Also, don’t wikify words that are not in the correct alphabet. Hebrew has to be in Hebrew, Greek in Greek. Romanized Hebrew and Greek don’t get linked. Try to spend some time learning what we are doing here before you make such changes. —Stephen 22:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


Hi Stephen,

Did you read what I wrote? I do know that both Dutch as the Swedish language just have two genders: utrum (the common (male/female) gender) and neutrum (the neutral gender). Grammatically Dutch knows three gender, but the male and female gender overlaps. So grammatically two articles: 'de' and 'het'. The German language does know three grammatical gender: der (m), die (f) and das (n). In Dutch: de man (the man, m), de vrouw (the woman, f) [utrum, m and f], het boek (the book, n) [neutrum]. Swedish has two articles: 'en' and 'ett'. In Swedish normally they use the term: den-ord and det-ord for resp. utrum words and neutrum words. The natural gender of 'pojke' and 'kille' is utrum, so 'den'. En pojke, pojken, pojkar, pojkarna. En kille, killen, killar, killarna. The reason that in Dutch the grammatical gender of the word 'meisje' is not utrum but neutrum is because 'meisje' is a diminutive. From Old Dutch 'maagdenkyn' (English maiden)

My answer to your second remark: Yes, I do as I can. I am learning. In my humble opinion: the meaning goes first, than the etymology. What about alphabets: I can read and write in 8 alphabets: Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, Sanskrit, Armenian, Georgian.

For Swedish, we use c here; it is unacceptable that you should change it to m. As for the order of the various parts on a page, it has all been discussed very thoroughly and already voted on, and the order we have established is with etymology first. You should read the page Wiktionary:Entry layout explained. As for alphabets, words have to be in the correct alphabet and properly spelt. Your Arabic spelling is terrible. I don’t know how you are managing to type it, but you are typing it wrong, and the Arabic you are putting in Abdullah is unacceptable. I am trying to get some work done here, but you are introducing so many errors that I can’t make any progress —Stephen 01:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

hello[edit]

Hello,

Please do not enter more than one language per language heading, even if identical. Duplicating the section for identical meanings is sometimes OK. But multiple languages in the identifying heading is not.

Here is the standard welcome template, to help you find your way around here. --Connel MacKenzie 03:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wiktionary. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:


I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk (discussion) and vote pages using four tildes, like this: ~~~~, which automatically produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the beer parlour or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Connel MacKenzie 03:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Editing hint[edit]

If you use "Show preview" first, and only use "Save page" when you are happy, then you won't make so many needless edits, and Wiki won't have to remember such a long edit history. SemperBlotto 15:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Frisian names[edit]

What is your source for information about Frisian names? I've been looking for a good book on Frisian names for a long time and have found only a few slender books that are long out of print. --EncycloPetey 23:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


Dear EncycloPetey,


My source is 'Fryske foarnammen/ Friese voornamen' by Rienk de Haan. Friese Pers Boekerij, Leeuwarden/Ljouwert, 2002 Fryske Akademynûmer 941 ISBN 90 330 1150 6 (160 pages)

about EUR 15,00

www.friesepersboekerij.nl and www.fryskeakademy.nl

See also http://www.friesenamen.nl/


Excuse me, www.fryskeakademy.nl should be http://www.fa.knaw.nl


You can buy it on-line. I don't know if they send it also abroad. If not, you must contact me again and I will help you receiving such a copy.

Regards, Sanne van den Eijnde (alasdair)

I currently have a friend studying in Amsterdam, so I have a contact if I need to buy the book. Thanks a lot for the info! --00:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Appendix:Names female-S[edit]

Hi Alasdair, can you tell me why some names in Appendix:Names female-S are in bold? --Merope 00:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


Hi Merope,


Yes, I can tell you. The names in bold will be the reference to the etymology and translations in other language of that name. I choose the main English form. The non bold names are a) non English names or variants and/or pet forms of the main name.

When there are a lot of forms of a non English name, than I 'bolden' the most common form of that name.


Bets regards, Sanne van den Eijnde (Alasdair)

We are not Wikipedia[edit]

Please roll back the template subst:s you did to the Names: pages. --Connel MacKenzie 04:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What are you up to?[edit]

Why have you dammaged so many of the Appendix:Names pages, and what is the point of those not-even-stub stub pages you are spamming? --Connel MacKenzie 04:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Connel,


I am sorry. You have right that I shouldn't make much more categories, but I thought Animal pet names could be a category that suits here, because it contents so many human personal names. After reading your demand to stop making more categories I delete the Geographical name category. That last named category was complete empty.

I don't understand your remark: ... and what is the point of those not-even-stub stub pages you are spamming? ... I do not know what you mean by not-even-stub pages. Can you please explain that? My native tongue is Dutch.

Regards, Sanne van den Eijnde (Alasdair)


PS : How you regard my effort to make a complete name list as possible? After and while I fill the Name Appendix I will link the entries and complete the description and meaning of the names.

I'm sorry, but your edits do look very suspicious. The pet names, I would assume, would fit on a single page. The pre-made breakdown suggests you are working from another list, without attribution/references. And I am upset that you subst:'ed the templates (why?) in the Appendix:Names * pages. --Connel MacKenzie 04:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Maria[edit]

Yes, I sort of figured you would notice in time. I thought about that for a few days before actually doing anything. The reason I took your list down was that it does not belong in a dictionary. It is an excellent list, but it has little to do with the word Maria. Keep in mind that the list is still in the history of the page, and can be easily accessed, should you ever want to. I suggest you write a Wikipedia article, on Spanish naming conventions, or whatever that list pertained to (I must admit I didn't fully get it, but it was pretty impressive). Then you can pull the list up from the history, copy it, and insert it into the new article, where it belongs. Any further questions or comments, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks. Cerealkiller13 20:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

Thank you for your answer. I must agree your point of view and I moved the Maria list to the Appendices of Given names. I was glad I found it again. All the labour it took to create it. Well, it is on its place I guess.

Best regards, Alasdair

Finnish given names[edit]

Thanks for the encoragement. I did all Finnish female names strating with S, but I think I'll continue. Hekaheka 09:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

More Finnish names[edit]

Hello, I came across Pirjo and Pirkko and you had edited them a little wrong. I'm a native Finn and I'll take care of Finnish names. Since you are a native speaker of Dutch, couldn't you do articles on Dutch names? They are fascinating but I'm not qualified to do anything about them.Makaokalani 10:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Question about Appendix:Names[edit]

Hi there, seeing as you seem to be the resident Appendix:Names guru, Is there a reason that so much information is hidden in the HTML comments. Would it not make more sense to show that information to people who look at the pages? Conrad.Irwin 12:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Source of names[edit]

Do we already have the names list published by the US Census Bureau? (My understanding is that it's in the public domain.) URLs: [1], [2], [3].—msh210 20:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Rainer and Reinhard[edit]

Rainer and Reinhard are two different names. Your edits to them were full of mistakes. For example, translations are only given to English words. A German word cannot be an English or Flemish surname. Austrian (German) has no ISO code; where did take "au" - just guessing? inventing ISO codes all on your own? Swiss is not a language. ISO code for Swiss German is gsw. ch means Chamorro. Your translation templates are wrong etc. and you shouldn't give translations in languages you don't know. I refuse to believe that you know Austrian or Swiss German. Ragnarök has no place in the etymology of Rainer. It's like adding "compare Yorkshire pudding" to the etymology of New York.

I know I sound like a prig but you have been here over two years. You shouldn't make awful edits like this. It's not fair to other editors. I'm tired of cleaning up after you. Why don't you just edit the name appendixes? It doesn't matter if you make mistakes there because it's just a list and they are hidden anyway. The list is quite useful. You have made many good edits too but the proportion of bad edits is too high, so I always have to check after you.--Makaokalani 11:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Clasical Roman name elements[edit]

I can't remember now whether it was you who had asked me about the categories for Classical Roman name elements. If so, then I've redone the names for all of them now. They are:

I may create subcategories for Category:Latin masculine praenomina and Category:Latin feminine praenomina, but haven't decided whether I'm happy with that terminology, or whether I should just create the feminine one (since there were so few, and all the others are masculine by default). --EncycloPetey 03:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

harjaR[edit]

Hi Alasdair. Is this spelling correct with a capital R at the end? --Jackofclubs 06:52, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

harjaR[edit]

Hi Alasdair, there is something wrong with this article harjaR. It says that harjaR is Old Norse but it looks like Proto-Norse. And the etymology section says that it comes from Proto-Germanic harjaR but Proto-Germanic had no -R endings. --MaEr 06:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Dear MaEr,

You are completely right when you state that 'harjaR rather looks like Proto-Norse instead of Old Norse. I will alter it as soon as possible. Thank you for mention it. In te future I will be more careful. I must say that it is pretty difficult to use all the standardised formulas (I do fully understand it: it is for integrity sake).

Dear Alasdair,
I reverted the Proto-Norse/Germanic ( from the etymology of Alvar.--Makaokalani 14:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)) since it was needless and still badly formatted. Why are you adding secret information in brackets to André, Armando, etc? Please don't do it. I'll remove it. If you don't know the format, ask in the Wiktionary:Information desk - don't guess. --Makaokalani 14:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

anthroponym[edit]

Would it be worth having a separate Category:Onomastics for technical terms used in the study of names? Or, should those terms just be in Category:Names? --EncycloPetey 21:45, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you are right: the creation of a seperate category Onomastics. Thank you. Regards, Alasdair

I've created the category. --EncycloPetey 21:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 Thank you!

Quesion: Why shouldn't Category:Given names be listed in Category:Names? Is it a specific kind of name. --EncycloPetey 22:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Names should not be in Category:Given names, since the latter is a subst of the former. That is, "names" is more inclusive. --EncycloPetey 23:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I don't understand the repeated and contradictory edits you are making to the categories. Please stop. If you don't know what you want to do, then please think it through first. I am protecting the categories in the meantime. --EncycloPetey 23:31, 28 June 2009 (UTC) OK, I am sorry. I guess now there is a logical sequence.

Shraddha[edit]

This can't be placed in an "hi:" category because the entry is not Hindi. All Hindi entries are entered using Devenagari script. --EncycloPetey 01:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I see, sorry.

maincat[edit]

It's not necessary to place two identical category links next to each other at the bottom of each appendix. The templates {{main}}, {{mainapp}}, {{maincat}}, etc. were meant to work like {{also}}: at the top of the page, when linking to pages directly related to the whole appendix in question. --Daniel. 17:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Jo, Johanna, Maria, Anders etc[edit]

There is no gender at all in Finnish, no f gender in Danish, no m gender in Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish - like Stephen explained to you three years ago. WHY do you keep adding nonsense? A dictionary should be accurate. You are not helping by adding nonexistent genders, or spelling names "almost" right (Ápran, Aleixandre etc). Please stop guessing. It's better to have no information than wrong information. I'm glad you're adding Dutch names now. You wouldn't make such mistakes in you mother tongue, now...or would you?

You are also adding appendices in several languages. But a good appendix should give sources. A list of names is pretty useless otherwise. Could you add some explanation? For example, you add pronunciations to Appendix:Irish given names, but they seem to be copied from somewhere. Could you add the source? Copying without references might be a copyright violation.--Makaokalani 14:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Makaokalani, I am sorry to add gender information to languages that, like in Dutch, only use utrum and neutrum gender. Given names have a distinct natural gender, hence I won't add gender information to names anymore. But you should be careful when you state that names like Aleixandre and Ápram are "almost" right names. I have books from those countries with that information. The normal form of Alexander in Portuguese is, like French, Alexandre, but a variant form is Aleixandre and Ápram is the Faroese form of Abraham (source: Fólkanøvn í Føroyum by Jákup í Jákupsstovn, Tórshavn, 1974). I don't like your attitude as you write 'You wouldn't make such mistakes in you mother tongue, now...or would you?' Is that the gratitude for my efforts and my many hours of editing?

What about your statement in the second paragraph: First I will uniform the present lists of given names, add my own information to those lists and then make good references so that there will be no names in "red". Concerning the Irish list with names: your colleague Connel MacKenzie corrupted the list in 2007 and I copied a version before the corruption. I don't mess me in pronunciation stuff. That is not my cup of tea. That information was already present. Finally the information I extract from books about given names is in my humble opinion not copy protected. The author did his field work, like I do mine. I just edit his and my information to one greater and better source. I could do all the listings on my own computer, but now everybody can directly profit from my efforts, my knowledge and my immense library of books about given names. Best regards, Sanne van den Eijnde (Alasdair)

Alasdair, you work hard, you mean well, and you remain civil in spite of receiving nothing but criticism. But you are careless and you keep editing in languages you don't know. The world is full of bad books and websites about names. The authors copy each other and errors get repeated. If you don't know the language, you cannot judge the source. Even reputable books make mistakes with foreign names. What you try is impossible - no one can make reliable entries on all the names of the world on his own. Be a realist. We need a joint effort. We have many fine editors here adding names in languages they do know - Hungarian, Icelandic, Faroese, etc. Atelaes adds fine Greek etymologies, several editors know Hebrew, and so on. You might be a valuable contributor if you concentrated on Dutch names. Maybe Afrikaans and West Frisian too? But when you say that you'll turn all the red links blue in the appendices, I get a shiver of horror down my spine.
Yes, Ápram is Faroese, but you spelled it Ápran, and Krun had to move it and clean it up. What is your source for Aleixandre? You say you don't understand pronunciations, and yet you restored the Irish ones deleted by Connel MacKenzieBot. That was irresponsible. You should have checked why they had been deleted. (I'll ask in the Beer Parlour.) And you called it a minor edit. Please, have you restored other deleted material without an edit summary? That's called an edit conflict. You absolutely must start using edit summaries now, just like everybody else.
Thank you for adding references to some of the appendices. Now others can see your sources and judge for themselves. Please go on. It's not only for copyright, but also credibility. You obviously cannot add references to Appendix:Names and Appendix:Surnames, but they are your thing. I have no time to watch what you're doing there. We are all doing unpaid work here because it's fun. No one can ask for gratitude. Suppose I said, "Be grateful for all the hours I've spent cleaning up your mistakes" :-) Alasdair, do you put the names you've edited to your watchlist? I've found it's the best way to learn from my mistakes. And do sign your comments, like this:~~~~. Or click a little square above the edit window, second from right, "your signature with timestamp". Try it in the sandbox. Good luck!--Makaokalani 12:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Makaokalani,

Thank you for your reply. It is a good feed-back. About the Irish list: a lot of names in the list were disappeared by a deletion action (deletion of the pronunciation addings ?). Only the meanings of the names remain. It was horrible to see that. I will add my comments to the bigger edit actions. I had already started with that.

Dear Makaokalani, of course my mother tongue (Dutch) is the language I do know most of. Nevertheless I have studied Scandinavian languages at the University of Amsterdam with Swedish as major. My hobby is etymology and languages and I know a lot of all the languages in the world. I am not just copying names out of books. I collect them and eveluate them. When I see mistakes in the books I don't copy them blind. No, I will correct them first before adding to my lists. Furthermore I am very accurate in my work. Of course I also make typos, but when I notice an error I directly correct it.

When I made acquaintance with Wikipedia I was immediately in love with it and I do like add my knowledge, spend my hours and give my efforts (and money) to it. My intention remains: make in Wikipedia a easy to handle, reliable and well documented dictionary of given names. Wikipedia is made by us all and it must be accessible to us all. The knowledge bank of the world, like the Library of Alexandria in ancient times.

Please do correct me when I make errors. I am still learning.

Best regards, Alasdair

PS : what is your nickname meaning?

I want to cry. Didn't you understand anything I was trying to say?--Makaokalani 14:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Help[edit]

Hi Alasdair. I'm wondering if you can help me with Frisian translations of given names. It's very difficult to find reliable data about them and I've red that you have some good sources. I'm the creator of this page in Italian Wikipedia: [4] (and also [5], [6], [7], [8]) and I'd love to add a Frisian column between Basso-tedesco (Nederduits) and Olandese (Nederlands)! It would also be great if you could check the Dutch column too. :-) --151.51.21.36 13:58, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi 151.51.21.36, I just see your lists and they are very interesting. I will certainly check them and if I find any errors I will discuss with you how to correct them. And yes, of course you can ask me for help with the Frisian translations. But it will be hard to find them. The Frisian given names are often from the children's language and are unreadible truncated. The main names are often just the Dutch forms. Nevertheless I like to help you.

Best regards, Sanne van den Eijnde

  • Thank you very much for your contributions in the germanic page! Of course your corrections (in every language) are more than welcome! Speaking of Abelardo-Adelhard, you're almost surely right. My own sources say that Abelardo is composed by the germanic roots adhara, discendant (and not athala, nobility), and hardhu, hard, strong (or maybe walda, powerfull) and was adapted in medieval Latin as Abaelardus. Adelhard has even an Italian form: Adelardo (not very common).
    You'll surely find a lot of other inaccuracies (the estonian section is a sore). For example I'm quite unsure about the correspondence between Bruna and Brynja. When possible, I usually try to add name translations with a shared origin, avoiding sheer similarities of meaning (Theophilus-Amadeus-Gottlieb-Bohumil) or folk-correspondences (Sorcha-Sarah, Fearganainm-Ferdinand).
    As regards Hogan, are you sure about its relationship with Hagen/Hakon/Haakon...? I'm not very experienced with scandinavian names-etymologies but, searching online, I have found that Hogan would be of Irish and Gaelic origin and its meaning is "youth", while Hakon is of scandinavian origin (a composition of , high, and konr, son).
    Another coriosity is the Uwe/Ove - Aage/Åke relationship. Do you think they should be unified or kept separated? I'm asking this beacuse their common etymology doesn't seem to be firmly established. :-) --151.51.22.210 14:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi there (can I have your name, please. That is somewhat comfortable to address.), First, I like to correspond with another name lover/scientist. I hope we'll have a fruitful cooperation. What about Abélard - Abelardo: the first name element could be from French abeille (= bee) and about the second element there is no discussion: -hard or -ward. My Estonian source is also sore, but a friendly Estonian add a lot of Estonian names to (my) index: Appendix:Names. I will soon copy them to the section Estonian given names. Then you or me can fill the gaps in the lists. You are right concerning English Hogan and Scandinavian Hakon. Those names are not completely the identical, but they are adapted for translation. There is a correspondance between the German Hagen, Dutch hagen and the English Hogan. I am not sure Hogan is from Celtic origin. I'll have to find that out. Hakon is indeed of Scandinavian origin (a composition of , high, and konr, kin like 'king' < Germanic 'kunja' = 'kin, kinship', 'family'; In Dutch the noun 'kunne' < 'sex'.) The meaning 'son' is in my opinion not likely. Also that I have to find out. The Old Scandinavian (Swedish) form for Aage/Åke is Ághi, the Old Norse form is Áki. The Danish equivalent of Swedish Åke is Åge (in Old Danish (1800-1950) written as Aage) is pronounced as /Owe/ (long O + w + Schwa). The pronounciation of Swedish Ove is /Uwe/ (long U + w + Schwa) a loan from (Low) German Uwe. I am not quite sure if both names have the same relationship. That is also something I have to check out. A question: Would you like fill a column with Low German forms or make a new column with Frisian forms? You know that Frisian is an independent language. The Low German (a dialect of German) name forms and Frisian are often similar. Hope to hear from you soon. Best regards, Sanne van den Eijnde

  • Sorry, I'm really impolite. My name is Umberto (:-)). My estonian sources are: [9], which list the name days and is quite reliable (I hope), and [10], which provides a some historical scenario but it's not so great in name harvesting.
    As regards the infamous Low German and Frisian columns, I've always had the feeling that is somewhat frustrating, yet inevitable, to have a half-empty column. Almost certainly it would never be possible to fill completely such languages' space. I also thought about the possibility of putting two or more "onomastically under-developed" languages in the same column, marking them in the same fashion of the Danish-Norwegian-Swedish one, which was once separated (but they were unified because of the uncanny similarity of their names, not because of the lacking of name translations). The main problem about this solution is that I'm actually unable to find an umbrella-term suitable to include West Frisian, Saterland Frisian, North Frisian (they seem to be closer to English than Dutch itself!), varieties of Low German and maybe others willing languages. Honestly, I'm not very competent about Germanic language classification (though I find it very interesting). Surely, it's possible to just create a list called BTe-Fr similar to the Da-No-Sv one. Or just create a new column for Frisian dialects. I think it depends also on the actual bouquet of Frisian names: are they similar in number to the Low German ones (which means very Low!) or are substantially more numerous?
    P.S. The paucity of traceable Sorbian names (21 males and 18 females), united with the bulkiness of the slavic table, was the main reason of my decision to not list them for now.
    P.P.S. I've never heard about a relationship between Abélard and abeille. It's indeed very strange! Ah, before I forgot, I have a question: the Dutch name Joris is etymologically closer to George or to Gregory? Umberto (a.k.a. --151.51.22.210 16:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)) (;-))

Hi Umberto,

To begin with you last question: Joris is one of the main forms/translations of the Greek name Georgios. In Holland Saint George is called Sint Joris. (a variant rare form is Goris). Jurriaan/Jurjen is also a main form as well as George and its pronounced written form Sjors. Like Maikel for the English Michael or Sjuul for the French name Jules. Another form for George in Holland is Jurgen. There are surnames Jurgens, Jurriaans and Jorisse, Jorissen, Goris, Gorissen, so these forms must be rather old. George is undoubtedly a loan from a later period: The French period (Napoleon) in Holland around 1800 when the upper class spoke French. Gregory is in Dutch: Gregorius, Gregoor and the loan names Gregory, Gregor and Grégoire.

  • smile* What a plastic and well found word is 'name harvesting'. That is what you and I are doing, I think.

Did you already visit Appendix:Names in Wiktionary or URL http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Names. When you press the Edit button, you'll find 'my' 'name harvesting' efforts gathered. But this is just a beginning. I have almost 30 meters of books about first names on my book shelves that must be entered in these lists and beside that I have typed lists with 'name harvesting' form a earlier period. I have a lot to do, but it is a pleasure doing it.

Thank you for answering my question. Now I know what you search exactly. I guess you can better rename the column to Frisian (Frisco ?) and not Low German (Tedesco basso). Frisian is in my opion a umbrella term for all the names that are given in the Dutch Nordsea coast provinces Friesland and Groningen and the northern German parts (East Friesland).

I also have a list of Sorbian names. It is still in machine typed form, but it is more than 21 males and 18 females. It gives the forms of the main names. I will soon publish them (especially for you) and make a new category Sorbian given names in Wikionary Given name envronment.

Best regards, Sanne van den Eijnde


  • 30 meters? Really? Do you have an Italian subsection? I'm urging you to found a public library!
    Speaking about tle name section of Wiktionary, it really need some onomastic love.
    Returning to our topic, I've done some research in the obscene world of Germanic languages classification. I went through hundreds of contradicting articles with confusing linguistic nomenclature (low german has at the very least 12.000 meanings). The links are from some websites I found. If the following table doesn’t work I swear I’m going on a killing spree (;-p).
  • 1) West Germanic
    • 1a) Low German (Nederduits-Basso tedesco) (also an umbrella-term for all West germanic languages)
      • 1aa) West Low German (Nedersaksisch-Basso sassone) [11] (the first set of names)
      • 1ab) East Low German (Oost-nederduits-Basso sassone orientale)
      • 1ac) Dutch Low Saxon (Nederland Nedersaksisch-?) [12] (covering all the following dialects)
        • 1aca) Drèents (Drents-?)
        • 1acb) Stellingwarfs (Stellingwerfs-?)
        • 1acc) Sallans (Sallands-?)
        • 1acd) Groningan Low Saxon (Gronings -?)
        • 1ace) Veluws (Veluws-?)
        • 1acf) Tweants (Twents-?)
      • 1ad) Low Franconian (Nederfrankisch-Basso francone)
        • 1ada) Limburgish (Limburgs-Limburghese)
        • 1adb) West Flemish (West-vlaams-Fiammingo occidentale)
        • 1adc) East Flemish (Oost-vlaams-Fiammingo orientale)
        • 1add) Brabantian (Brabants-Brabantino)
        • 1ade) Hollandic (Hollands-Olandese! lazy Italians)
        • 1adf) Zeelandic (Zeeuws-Zelandese)
        • 1adg) South Guelderish (Zuid-gelders-Zuid-gelders)
  • 1b) Anglo-Frisian
    • 1ba) North Frisian (Noord-fries-Frisone settentrionale) [13] (third set of names)
    • 1bb) Saterland Frisian (Saterfries-Frisone orientale) [14] (the second set of names)
    • 1bc) West Frisian (Westerlauwers Fries-Frisone occidentale)
  • 1c) High German
    • 1ca) Luxembourgish (Luxemburgs-Lussemburghese) [15] (not very usefull, I fear)

Now, my hope is to create a column collecting names from these families (at least Low German and Anglo-Frisian, I have very few hopes about Luxembourgish). I'm resigned to find a collective term including Low G. and Frisian, but I'm pretty positive they could be harmoniously merged despite their relative linguistic distance. It seems that they shared a lot of history, have similar areas of diffusion and have pretty similar name forms. So, this is an attempt of what I mean:

Italiano Inglese Tedesco Basso-T., Frisco Frisone Olandese
/ Eckhard(t), Eckhart, Ekkehard Eggertb, Eggerickb, Edzardf, Esdertf Eggert, Ekkehard
Gualtiero Walter Walt(h)er, Wolter Wöltjeb, Wooltrb, Wousb, Wolterb Wouter
Nicola Nicholas, Nick Nikolaus, Klaus Nickelb, Klaas b, Nikelsf Nicolaas
/ Maynard Meinhard Meinertb, Meenhardf Meinhard
Anna Anne Anna, Anne Antje, Ankeb, Amkaf Anna, Anne

Exclusive Low German names are marked with a b (Basso Tedesco), exclusive Frisian names with a f, while common names don't have any. The problem is that I'm not really able find who's who.
P.S. I'll very appreciate a good list of Sorbian names. There're so many languages with unexplored name fields to harvest... Umberto (aka --151.51.46.33 12:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC))

Sorbian[edit]

You should explicitely name the language Lower Sorbian in headings, categories, and the like, to avoid confusion with Upper Sorbian. -- Prince Kassad 15:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

You are right. Thank you. -- 15:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Names[edit]

I appreciate the massive effort you're making to improve these appendices, however when making bug changes, could you fill in the edit summary? You just delete over 9,000 octets without explaining what it was you deleted. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I will. What I did was changing the language assignments to their abbreviated forms (used on cars, like German --> D). I also removed the gender assignment (male/female) and I changed 'short of' into 'dim. of'. Regards, Alasdair -- 08:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Prince K that you can't just recategorise and/or blank pages without any discussion, we have WT:BP for that. I'm not seing many edit summaries either. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

STOP[edit]

Don't make any more changes in any name categories, and don't create new ones. You don't understand the system. Name categories are parts of speech; they cannot be listed in topic categories like es:Names, etc. Categories beginning with en: are prohibited. Names in Roman script cannot be placed in any Russian/Bulgarian/Tibetan/Moroccan Arabic etc. categories. Indridason is not a surname, it's a patronymic, and the status of patronymics has not been settled (WT:CFI). Appendix:Surnames-A,B, etc don't belong in Category:Surnames by language, and you cannot write "Appendix:Names" on top of categories; that's reserved for a description of the category.

You were blocked for just this kind of behavior but you just go on. Do you want to get blocked for good?

Also: add an edit summary to every edit. Don't click the "Save" button so many times; use "Preview", like SemperBlotto asked you years ago. This statement looks funny to me: "I could do all the listings on my own computer, but now everybody can directly profit from my efforts, my knowledge and my immense library of books about given names." Nobody wants half-done work. Please do the work in you own computer, and add it in one "Save" click, with a proper edit summary. And where are your sources for the appendices?

I wanted to do work of my own, but now I'll have to use an hour at least of my weekly six hours, playing charwoman to you once again.--Makaokalani 11:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I am sad and disappointed. Never a friendly word and thank. I wonder if I will go on and get the joy of working here. I shall do what you ask. You don't seem to see the corrections and addings I made. *sight* --Alasdair 11:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this merits a WT:BP discussion, it needs more input that just us three. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
What I meant by sources for the appendices is, "How did you choose this particular list of names? What is the purpose of this appendix?" Nobody seems to understand it. Are you following the Beer Parlour discussion? Adding links to the statistics websites (copied from my user page) doesn't explain anything. Pet names are not recorded in statistics, for example. And there are linguistic minorities in every country, so not all the names in Swedish/Danish/Norwegian state birth statistics reflect those languages. The website Nordic Names looks a bit suspect - the Finnish welcome message talks about place names, Lulu/Lula are defined as "accusative/dative/genitive form", pet forms are mixed up with official given names. If you just want to make lists of names that "look right" to you, make a website of your own. It's not dictionary material.
What is your source for Enobakhare as an Igbo name? If that's true, the language statement should be Igbo; but you need to add a good reference. I use Category:Surnames for names of uncertain origin, or when a suitable category does not exist yet because there's controversy about the wording. --Makaokalani 09:52, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Central Europe is not a country, neither is it a political subdivision. Central Europe is not only not a political area at all (it is geographical), it's also not a subdivision of anything (except the equally geographical Europe). I'm not saying you edit in bad faith or you do it on purpose, but you do seem to have serious problems understanding the category system we use. -- Prince Kassad 11:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Central Europe is not a place name (that was its original category), it is a region. --Alasdair 12:05, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
But a region is a place. -- Prince Kassad 21:29, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
You are right, generally spoken, but when there are subcategories as cities, countries, villages etc. it is not likely to categorise it as place name.

Mereon[edit]

Fine, you have started using you watchlist and writing edit summaries. What is your source for Mereon as a form of Marion? The Ancestry.com link is useful but this data was already mentioned in the discussion. The rfv can only be removed by consensus, usually by the person who put it in, or by the admin in charge of the discussion page.--Makaokalani 14:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

A request for references[edit]

Whenever you make entries for rare names, or for any names in a rare language - Albanian, Basque, Catalan, Faroese, etc - could you please add a reference? Preferably a paper book by a linguist, with publisher, date and page. See the examples I made for Adelar and Adenot. No need to use those books, naturally - you have 30 meters of name books so you can choose a good one! It's to help others to clean up your entries because, even though your recent edits are getting better, there's still a lot of confusion.

  • Transliterations with accent marks are not wanted - actually some users oppose all transliterations, so it's best not to put in any. Several of your recent entries were rfd'd - do you see it in your watchlist?
  • Misspellings are not wanted. We have some old ones - Francois, Zoltan, etc, but they were put in by newcomers who didn't know better.
  • Diminutives are defined and categorized as diminutives since January 2009. A diminutive or hypocorism means something that is used today - e.g. English Bob; but English Robin is not a diminutive, it's a full given name. Your French names didn't look like diminutives either, they're surnames. If you maintain they are diminutives please add some proof.

Every time you make an erratic entry (Indridason, harjaR, Adólfos) somebody has to rfv/rfd it, there must be discussion and decision, and someone must push the delete button. It's a waste of everybody's time, and it doesn't create goodwill towards you ... Please think very hard before pressing the save button:"Does this meet the CFI? Is the spelling correct? Did I give valid references?" Many items in your Appendix:Names don't meet the CFI. There's no harm in listing them - it might even be useful - but some links must remain red for good. We are not trying to have more names than any babyname website. We want correct information about real names.

Adding good references will relieve other editors from the job of cleaning up after you. It might also make you respected. Following the CFI and using edit summaries is basic courtesy towards others.( I'm good at making sermons, see?:-) --Makaokalani 15:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Dear Makaokalani,

Thank you for your sermon again. I try to fulfill your requests as good as possible. In my opinion are diminutives, hypocorismes and even nicknames also regular given names. I know there are seperate lists for such names and I use them already. Omitting them in the regular lists is against my 'religion'. Most dictionaries only describe the formal forms and often give less or no attention to the informal speech. I like to register the (raw) reality and I dislike to see the spoken and written language through a sterile, laboratory glasses. I do can find me in your statement that transliterated names should not have diacronical characters. I will omit them. As you can see I start adding references and I will continue with that. Best regards, --Alasdair 14:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Diminutives and formal given names partly overlap in some languages, like English and Dutch. "A diminutive of Mary, also used as a female given name" is fine for those, provided you have data to prove it. In other languages like Hungarian and Czech there is a clear difference. There may even be laws against entering pet forms on birth certificates. Miki was correctly defined by a native speaker. A dictionary is a cold, scholarly effort, not a place to express personal views.
Could you please add references to all the entries you made for Albanian given names? We have one native speaker of Albanian here, but she's busy and hard to reach. --Makaokalani 14:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Moving appendices to you own user space[edit]

Please see Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Others#Appendix:Spanish_names_for_Mar.C3.ADa. --Makaokalani 13:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I was gonna say the same thing. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Can't you focus to someone else, please? I am getting tired off your negative critism. Everytime I tried to ameliorate my contributions and this is the result. Gnagg, gnagg ... I have 2 hands, 10 fingers, 8 hours a day, one life and a lot of enthusiasm, but the latter is getting less and less.
You could have ask me what function some appendices have and what are my goals with others. I would have explained to you.
The title 'Spanish names for Maria' is indeed not correct. Better is: Spanish Marian names or Spanish epithets for the Virgin Mary. Typical for mediterranian, catholic countries are girl names which are contracted forms of epithets for biblical Mary, the mother of Jesus, like Dolores from María de los Dolores. You find those names also in Italy, Portugal, Basque land, Catalonia and France (and in a lot of other catholic European countries). I made that list in the same time as 'The 99 names for Allah' with the same idea to try make a list as complete as possible for such names. When you don't like Onomastica then you can't see the purpose of it.
Please help me to ameliorate my contributions and give me also some positive critism. That would make life worth living. --Alasdair, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Warning[edit]

This is a last warning to actually listen to what people say to you. The Wiktionary is not a place for you to indulge in your own projects despite of other people's opinions. I just had to speedy delete something you made because it was a copyright violation. Either engage in discussion when people talk to you, or you will be blocked (again). Mglovesfun (talk) 13:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

With the best help in the world I do not know where you talking about. What did I do wrong now?

The last three weeks I just added names to Appendix:Names and to the Given name appendices. What did I do that was a copyright violation? You Administrators make me uncertain and are killing my enthusiasm to work for the Wiktionary.--Alasdair 14:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Try reading this page, and WT:RFDO. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Please be clear and don't make me puzzling if you want a change.--Alasdair 14:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Now I see you had a discussion in WT:RFDO today. I did not know about that discussion, so Mglovesfun's warning puzzled me. Now it makes me more sense. I am still puzzling about the copyright violation.--Alasdair 14:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Copy-pasting without explanation is forbidden. A parable: you have been driving a car for three years ignoring all traffic rules, and you complain that everybody is nagging you and spoiling your fun. See also Wiktionary:Beer parlour:Category:Given name appendices. All appendices should begin with a definition about their purpose and sources. I have just checked all the given name appendices. Here is something for you to do:

  • Appendix:Albanian given names - what is your source? (And what about the given names?)
  • Appendix:Armenian given names - are you adding names -from where? why? These are mere transliterations. We have an excellent Armenian contributor, making entries in Armenian script.
  • Appendix:Dutch given names. Where from? Are all those names really Dutch, not Old Dutch for ex.? Looks too huge.
  • Appendix:Faroese given names - clean up the format. Define how the names were chosen. (It could be a good appendix if you tried)
  • Appendix:Flemish given names - write a definition. Are all the names from 1902?
  • Appendix:Icelandic given names - "uncertain" names? Delete them, what nonsense.
  • Appendix:Swedish given names - I'm planning to replace this with a frequency report, unless you quickly define and explain your sources.
  • Appendix:Turkish given names - dividing into male and female is fine, but finish it!

Explain all this in the appendices. Please don't make appendices look like categories. An alphabetical list is not an end in itself. Why are you duplicating old appendices - see how silly it looks to a visitor!--Makaokalani 13:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Appendix:Given names with a certain meaning[edit]

As we're still voting on this, no need to move it to your page. But I'll do it later if there's some sort of agreement. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you --Alasdair 11:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The purpose of given name appendices[edit]

Here are some purposes for a given name appendix: A preliminary list of names when a category doesn't exist or is very small. An additional list of names missing from a big category. A frequency report. Information about nicknames, regional and dialectal usage.

Imagine a visitor to this website who is interested in French names. He looks up Category:French given names. It makes sense - he can follow blue links to every given name entry. Then he sees Appendix:French given names. The way you left it, there was a long list of names and, rolling down the page, a third list, both without any explanation. "What a stupid dictionary!" he thinks. "Why repeat the same old names three times?"

I have edited the French appendix so now there are two different lists: a frequency report and an additional list. I have also edited (as an UIP,oops,sorry) Albanian appendix to show how to clean up a preliminary list started by others. Whatever you mean by "the official Albanian name list", be exact about it! Don't make a new list, start from the old one, with asteriskes, italics, whatever. All the remarks must be visible. Those secret remarks in Appendix:Names are bad enough, don't fill up the language appendices with them! They don't help anyone else and this isn't your own website. Today you have added secret remarks to the Norwegian appendix, without an edit summary again. I'll wipe out all your secret messages if you go on.

Your appendices can be very useful if you do them in a scholarly way and adjust your plans to serve this dictionary. It's no good copying all the speculations and mistakes from Appendix:Names. Appendices specified by language are more demanding. Try to see this dictionary as a whole. Read the discussion and policy pages, and watch what other people are doing. The rules and formatting keep changing. It's every editor's duty to be aware of them.

Finns have borrowed Swedish names, but not the other way around. The Finnish names in Sweden are mostly post-WWII immigrants. Finland was separated from Sweden in 1809, not 1916. I wish you would stop guessing. You had added many misspellings to the Latvian appendix. You still have't cleaned up the Turkish and Faroese appendices.The Romanian appendix is full of half-done links. Why start a job if you don't mean to finish it? Where from did you copy Appendix:Hypocoristics for French names and the first part of Appendix:English given names ?--Makaokalani 13:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Appendix:Swedish given names[edit]

Please don't put back names that have entries already. See the header :"Names outside given names categories".--Makaokalani 14:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand you. Why did you remove a name as by example Albert or Claes? Just because they already have entries in the Swedish given name category? That means everytime when an entry is added in that category it should deleted in this appendix? This list I made came from very reliable sources (see my references). I am very sorry that they are removed. Not in the least for all my efforts. The present list now gives a twisted reality in my opinion. It is clear our points of view differ. You are interested in frequencies and my interest is in form and writing (and etymology). Those different interests don't have to collapse; they can exist perfectly together. --Alasdair 14:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, every time an entry is added the name is removed from the appendix. An additional appendix need not "reflect reality". It's just a little aid to categories. All preliminary appendices will be turned into additional appendices in time. Did you think the appendices were eternal? It may have made sense in 2005, before the category system was created. If you want to turn appendices into a copy of the category system, start a discussion in the Beer parlour.
Appendix:Names and Appendix:Surnames might become permanent, as a index to categories. But you are truly wasting your time, copying category names into any other appendices.--Makaokalani 14:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for informing me. I will paying attention to it. Now I understand you better. But please inform me before you erase entries or lists. Thank you. --Alasdair 14:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I cannot inform you every time I edit an appendix! Nobody does that in this dictionary. Put your appendices in your watchlist; you will see it there.--Makaokalani 14:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

good job[edit]

Hello, this is your yearly pat on the back. You're doing a great job here, keep it up, and it's great having this mysterious guy, Alasdair, who keeps hanging around the place. Something of continuity, you know. --Itkilledthecat (talk) 22:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:English male given names from India[edit]

Hey Alasdair, seeing as I know you've worked on our name appendices a lot I was wondering if you could sort through this disaster of a category lol. The thing is, Wiktionary is only categorising names by language of origin, not country of origin so this category is not valid. Deleting it is kinda pointless until all the entries in it are altered to state exactly what "Indian" language they have come from. User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 22:50, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Given names appendices[edit]

Hi there,

(1) We are adding names in different languages and scripts to Appendix:Male/Female given names. I think we should separate them by language.

(2) Currently these appendices are just a raw list, without any additional information about each given name. You have put many information as comments, but I think they should be visible to readers, as they are quite useful to them as well.

I suggest to change these lists to a table like this:

Given name variants In native language/script meaning Used in Comments [Related names]
<[Transliteration of] name> <alt forms> <link to the original name if the given name is just a transliteration> <literal meaning> <name or code of countries and regions> <blah blah> <etymologically related names, e.g. Sergius for Sergey>

There would little demand from a reader of a list like this for other info such as etymology and perhaps pronunciation, so we should omit them (they should be added to the entries instead). By the way, such table can be processed by machine, so we can even write a code to automatically mass produce entries for these name. --Z 21:47, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Z: You are very welcome to remove mistakes from Appendix:Names and to make a valid separate appendix for (e.g.) Persian given names. Alasdair's attempts to create separate appendices by language ended in protests of inaccuracy. In my opinion Appendix:Names should be kept as a raw list, but the remarks should be made visible to everyone. For example: a bot could turn :[[Aad]] <!-- NL, UK, dim. of Adriaan, André, Aad Nuis, Aad Stoeltie, ! --> into :[[Aad]] <small> NL, UK, dim. of Adriaan, André, Aad Nuis, Aad Stoeltie, </small> , making it display
Aad NL, UK, dim. of Adriaan, André, Aad Nuis, Aad Stoeltie, . This would encourage any reader to add info and correct the mistakes. --Makaokalani (talk) 09:44, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Your new edits in main namespace[edit]

You are adding entries in the main namespace again, with the same old problems. Take your edits of Abelone: no definitions (!), no lines between languages, English pronunciations of Abby (!) in parentheses, wrong etymology (<Abel ?), very suspect language statement as a French name, and no references or citations to support your claims. From previous conversations, you seem to think that we have a system of checking and cleaning up all your edits. We don't. Newcomers' edits are patrolled, but you have been on the Whitelist for years. You are not supposed to make major mistakes any more. In Wiktionary:Blocking policy one of the reasons for blocking is

  • Persistently wasting other editors’ time by making many edits that have to be undone, cleaned up, or otherwise modified to make them correct.

So, please, Alasdair: If you cannot learn, for some reason, to make accurate edits, stick to editing Appendix:Names only. It is a good and useful raw list, and you are a tireless worker. I never check your edits there. Nobody expects it to be perfect. I have often used it to get a general idea about some name, to know where to look. Why not do the work you are good at, instead of creating tiresome work for others and risking your own status here?--Makaokalani (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

this time again[edit]

Hey. Time for your annual "hi, well done, mysterious Alasdair" again. Keep it up! -WF

Faroese given names[edit]

Hi. I have just been correcting some of the names on the page: Appendix:Faroese given names - which you have created and contributed to. I am Faroese, and I must say that this list looks more like a list of Icelandic names. Where did you find these names? Many of them are not approved for use in the Faroe Islands. Some of the names includ the Icelandic letter þ like in the name Eyþór. We don't have the letter þ in the Faroese alphabet and the name is Eyðtór. EileenSanda (talk) 13:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)