User talk:Bgagaga

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to: navigation, search

Welcome!

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

  • Entry layout explained (ELE) is a detailed policy documenting how Wiktionary pages should be formatted. All entries should conform to this standard. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing page for a similar word, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
  • Our Criteria for inclusion (CFI) define exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary, though it may be a bit technical and longwinded. The most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
  • If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
  • The FAQ aims to answer most of your remaining questions, and there are several help pages that you can browse for more information.
  • A glossary of our technical jargon, and some hints for dealing with the more common communication issues.
  • If you have anything to ask about or suggest, we have several discussion rooms. Feel free to ask any other editors in person if you have any problems or question, by posting a message on their talk page.

You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage. This shows which languages you know, so other editors know which languages you'll be working on, and what they can ask you for help with.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! If you have any questions, bring them to the Wiktionary:Information desk, or ask me on my talk page. If you do so, please sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~ which automatically produces your username and the current date and time.

Again, welcome! --Vahagn Petrosyan 17:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

arrack[edit]

The etymology you added looks like a long shot. Tungusic is spoken far away from the Middle East/Mediterranean, where the use of this word seems concentrated, and connecting that with Japanese means you're using the Greater Altaic hypothesis, which is still not widely accepted. And Tibetan, too? What is your source for this? – Krun 08:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Words have been known for travelling further than that, the Silk Road is a plausible explanation for this.
Although I believe in the Greater Altaic hypothesis, this is irrelevant here, because the Japanese sake is also a loanword from Tungusic rak.
Here is my source: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/ordboksoek/ordbok.cgi?OPP=arak&nynorsk=S%F8k+i+Nynorskordboka&ordbok=begge&s=n
(it's an 'official' Dictionary).
Use http://translate.google.com/ if you don't believe me, the translation is of very poor quality, but you can see Tibetan and Tungusic there. Bgagaga 15:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
look at this as well http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/ordboksoek/ordbok.cgi?OPP=sake&nynorsk=S%F8k+i+Nynorskordboka&ordbok=nynorsk&s=n
  • Late update as I slowly work through older JA entries.
JA sake has no known connection with arrack. The presence of the ak in the middle of the Japanese word is entirely insufficient. Even more so once one starts reading about the etymology of the Japanese word.
Excerpted from http://gogen-allguide.com/sa/sake.html , readings added for reference, with additional glosses and my commentary in square brackets:

「さ」は接頭語「さ」で、「け」は酒の古名「き」の母音変化が有力とされる。
一説には、古名の「汁(しる)」と「食べ物」を意味する「食(け)」で、「汁食(しるけ)」から転じたとする説もあるが、有力とはされていない。
その他の説では、飲むと晴れ晴れすることから、「栄え水(さかえみず)」と呼ばれており、「栄え水」が転訛して「さけ」になったする説。
同様に「栄えのき(「き」は酒の古名)」が転訛し、「さけ」になったする説。

A likely theory is that the sa is a prefix, and that the ke is a change in vowel from ki, the ancient Japanese word for "sake".
In one line of thought, sake is a compound from the old Japanese words (shiru, [a juice, a drink]) and (ke) meaning "food", with the resulting shiruke changing over time to sake, but this theory is not considered very convincing.
Another theory is that sake may have been called 栄え (sakaemizu [sakae from sakaeru "to thrive, to flourish" + mizu "water", c.f. "water of life", "aqua vita", etc.]) from the way that drinking it makes one merry, and this sakaemizu changed over time to sake.
A related theory holds that sake may be derived as a change in pronunciation from 栄え (sakae no ki) (using the ancient Japanese word ki for "sake").

This makes no mention at all of arrack, and lays out a compelling line of reasoning that the incidental ak in the middle of sake is, in fact, not integral: the "a" and the "k" belong to different elements.
I have since removed the etymology previously given at sake.
(Incidentally, etymologies, pronunciations, and other such information should go on the lemma page, which for most JA entries is the page for the kanji spelling. Rōmaji and kana pages are generally used only as disambig pages, listing all relevant parts-of-speech with each Japanese word or morpheme of that reading listed accordingly, with glosses, and preceded by {{ja-def}} at the beginning of each numbered entry line to redirect users to the appropriate lemma page.)
-- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)