User talk:Borovi4ok

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Again, welcome! --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 01:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Welcome[edit]

One of our administrations, Metaknowledge noticed you have been adding Bashkir content over the past few months and suggested I say hello.

I am glad to learn about Bashkortostan and the Bashkir language. Unfortunately, I do not read Cyrillic letters, so I must do that so I can read your entries!

I would like to repeat Lo Ximiendo's request to add a Babel box to your user page. The code for your Babel box should look something like this:

{{Babel|ba|en|ru-4}}

  • "ba" means "native speaker of Bashkir."
  • "en" means "native speaker of English."
  • "ru-4" means "almost native speaker of Russian."

If you have any questions, you can ask here or click "community portal" at the left to find our discussion rooms.

I hope you will keep adding Bashkir words and thank you for making Wiktionary better! --BB12 (talk) 08:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi BB12,
I've added a Babel box to my page.
I'm spending my time mostly on the Russian Wiktionary, adding Bashkir word pages there. I thought it could be a good idea to add Bashkir stuff more actively on enWikt too.
Currently, there are some 600+ pages on the RusWikt. Do you think there might be any way to automatically create enWict pages, using the RuWikt entries as a basis? Would be great if I could talk to somebody in your community about deteals, like creating inflection templates.
Cheers, Borovi4ok (talk) 08:55, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Great, thank you! The Bashkir template does not work correctly, so I looked at it. I think if you can edit Category:User_ba-N to include the following, but with translations to Bashkir, it should work. ("Category" and "User" should be left in English.)
{{User lang|ba|This user is a '''[[:Category:User ba-N|native]]''' speaker of '''[[:Category:User ba|башҡорт теле]]'''.}}<noinclude> {{documentation}} </noinclude>
If you are interested, we also need Template:User ba-1, Template:User ba-2, Template:User ba-3 and Template:User ba-4. :: The English versions are:
  1. This user is able to contribute with a basic level of English.
  2. This user is able to contribute with an intermediate level of English.
  3. This user is able to contribute with an advanced level of English.
  4. This user speaks English at a near-native level.
I will ask Metaknowledge to respond here about automatically creating pages and templates. --BB12 (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi! I'll be your friendly technical helper for today. To answer your two questions: Extracting content from other Wiktionaries is not an easy thing, because to be a fully automated process, it needs to be done by bot. That requires more programming knowledge than I have. Do you know any programming languages, and if so, which ones? There is a second option for extracting data. I can build a template that transforms ru.wikt formatting into en.wikt formatting. However, it will require you to copy-paste manually from ru.wikt to en.wikt, and you will have to type in the definition in English. That would be pretty fast, but you need to be sure that you would make good use of it before I build it, because that would take a lot of work. As for inflection templates, I have a lot of experience with them. All you need to do is verify that w:Bashkir language#Grammar is correct and I'll build a template that can cover all those nouns. If there are nouns that aren't covered there, please explain their declension here. Thanks --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
(By the way, I just met a guy from Уфа (yes, I know Cyrillic), but he didn't know any Bashkir. Ah well.) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:19, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Μετάknowledge! Thanks for your help!
I don't know any programming languages, so let's go with the second option.
Yes, I'm sure I will make good use of the template that would transform ru.wikt formatting into en.wikt formatting once you make it.
I have just checked w:Bashkir language#Grammar. The declension data there is correct, but incomplete. For simple (1-word) nouns, there are 16 declension types in Bashkir. I have actually found that some of them are already here in en.wikt.I will continue the discussion of Bashkir declension below, under a separate header. Borovi4ok (talk) 10:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Declension of Bashkir nouns[edit]

Again, there are 16 types in Bashkir. For now, I will stick to the declension codes I've used in ru.wikt.

Declensions 1a-1d apply to nouns with stems ending in vowels.

  • 1a. Noun stems ending in -а, -ы. Already exists in en.wikt, see ҡала.
  • 1b. Noun stems ending in -ә, -е. Already exists in en.wikt, see бүҙәнә.
  • 1c. Noun stems ending in . Already exists in en.wikt, see опто.
  • 1d. Noun stems ending in . Haven't found in en.wikt. Needed e.g. in төлкө. An example declension available at ru.wikt at [1]

Before we continue, please tell if this format of discussion is confortable. Regards, Borovi4ok (talk) 10:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

This is great. I'll add 1d to {{ba-noun-v}}. Please explain the rest (you don't need to number them, since they'll be input by the last letter anyway). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Great! Here is more:

  • Noun stems ending in -ай, -ау, -аҙ, -ар, -ый, -ыу, -ыҙ, -ыр, -уй, -уҙ, -ур, -яй, -яу, -яҙ, -яр, -оу have the declension as in [2]
  • Noun stems ending in -әй, -әү, -әҙ, -әр, -эй, -эү, -эҙ, -эр, -үй, -үҙ, -үр, -ей, -еү, -еҙ, -ер, -өү have the declension as in [3]
  • Noun stems ending in -ой, -оҙ, -ор have the declension as in [4]
  • Noun stems ending in -өй, -өҙ, -өр have the declension as in [5].

There is problem with nouns in -ир: they may follow either the declension of -ай etc, or -әй etc. This depends on the vowel in the penultimate syllable. Please advise whether this can be done automatically. If so, I will give the details.

We're halfway done with simple nouns. I will explain more a bit later.Borovi4ok (talk) 11:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

We have a problem. There are more than 100 Bashkir nouns here, but they all use a template system that is not making sense to me, and which has no documentation. My hope is that after learning all the Bashkir declensions, I will recognize them in the templates and figure out how to merge them. Also, about the -ир nouns, there are limitations on string manipulation that don't allow the code to "figure it out", so you'll need to type an extra parameter for them. That parameter should probably be just an а or a ә. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Please keep me posted about how it goes. Tell me if I can be of any help in making the Bashkir declensions work automatically.
Here is the last bit of the declension types:
  • Noun stems ending in -ым, -ын, -ың, -ыл, -ам, -ан, -аң, -ал, -ум, -ун, -уң, -ул, -юм, -юн, -юң, -юл, -ям, -ян, -яң, -ял have the declension as in [6].
  • Noun stems ending in -ем, -ен, -ең, -ел, -эм, -эн, -эң, -эл, -әм, -ән, -әң, -әл, have the declension as in [7].
  • Noun stems ending in -им, -ин, -иң, -ил normally belong to the latter declension type, but there are a few exceptions, depending with the penultimate vowel. Looks like we need to introduce an extra parameter for this case too.
  • Noun stems ending in -ом, -он, -оң, -ол have the declension as in [8].
  • Noun stems ending in -өм, -өн, -өң, -өл have the declension as in [9].
  • Noun stems ending in -ыҡ, -ыт, -ыш, -ып, -ыс, -ыҫ, -ыф, -аҡ, -ат, -аш, -ап, -ас, -аҫ, -аф, -яҡ, -ят, -яш, -яп, -яс, -яҫ, -яф, -уҡ, -ут, -уш, -уп, -ус, -уҫ, -уф, -арт, -ырт, have the declension as in [10]
  • Noun stems ending in -эк, -эт, -эш, -эп, -эс, -эҫ, -эф, -ек, -ет, -еш, -еп, -ес, -еҫ, -еф, -әк, -әт, -әш, -әп, -әс, -әҫ, -әф, -үҡ, -үт, -үш, -үп, -үс, -үҫ, -үф, -әрт, -үрт, have the declension as in [11]
  • Noun stems ending in -ик, -иҡ, -ит, -иш, -ип, -ис, -иҫ, -иф normally belong to the latter declension type, but there are a few exceptions, depending with the penultimate vowel. An extra parameter needed.
  • Noun stems ending in -ош, -оҡ, -от, -оп, -ос, -оҫ, -оф, -орт have the declension as in [12].
  • Noun stems ending in -өш, -өк, -өт, -өп, -өс, -өҫ, -өф, -өрт have the declension as in [13].

Last but not least, there are cases when the noun stem is not the same as the nominative case.Borovi4ok (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, {{ba-noun-v}} and {{ba-noun-c}} now cover most (if not all) of those stems. Could you please test them out at WT:Sandbox and make sure they are correct? (Click on the links for explanations on how to use them.) If you find any nouns that these templates do not cover, or cover incorrectly, please tell me. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Metaknowledge, thanks a lot,
{{ba-noun-v}} works fine. However, {{ba-noun-c}} displays only the nominative form in all fields, no endings. Am I doing anything wrong?
Also, we need to be able to inflect words that are in singularia tantum, like дөгө (no plural forms exist). Borovi4ok (talk) 14:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Metaknowledge,
are you in this discussion? Borovi4ok (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh, sorry about that. Well, here are your updates on what I've done.
Firstly, try {{ba-noun-c}} again (but click on the link, because the instructions are different now). I think it's fine now.
Secondly, I created {{ba-noun-c-sing}} and {{ba-noun-v-sing}} for singularia tanta. Please test them and tell me if they work correctly.
Thirdly, I can still create the ru.wikt→en.wikt formatting converter, but I did some research into it and it looks like it won't be very easy to input (you'll have to manually type in the vertical pipe ( | ) a lot for it to work). I can still make it, but I'm starting to think it might be faster for you to just copy-paste and modify it as is. If you think that ru.wikt formatting is way too different from ours for that to be very easy for you, then I can still create it. What do you think? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi Metaknowledge,
Sorry I've been away traveling for a while.
I'll write you when I've looked at the new declension templates.
At this moment, I don't think that ru.wikt→en.wikt converter would be a very practical tool. I'll create the English articles manually.
Meanwhile, can you please have a look at тәҙрә and see if it looks right? I need one complete article, so I can use it as a master.
Please have a special look at the "Etymology" section. I will need categories for Bashkir words derived from:
  • Proto-Turkic;
  • Arabic;
  • Persian;
  • Russian;
  • Mongolian;
  • Chinese;
  • Turkish.

Here ([14]) is the ru.wikt page "Bashkir words derived from other languages". Borovi4ok (talk) 10:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

For the most part, [[тәҙрә]] is excellent. However, please see these changes that Ruakh made: [15]. I will make your categories right away, if they don't exist already. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:11, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

аҡса[edit]

Whoops, thanks for fixing that! —RuakhTALK 14:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Ҡазаҡстан[edit]

Folks, this article needs to be renamed into Ҡаҙағстан. Here is its counterpart at ru.wikt: [16] Thanx, Borovi4ok (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

There is a dropdown tab just to the left of the search bar that allows you to move it yourself. Just remember to go back to the old page title and replace the content with {{d}} so an administrator notices that it needs to be deleted. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanx! Borovi4ok (talk) 13:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:ba-noun-v-sing[edit]

Metaknowledge,

This template doesn't work right for дөгө. The dative should be: дөгөгә.

This template doesn't work right for кәбеҫтә. The dative should be: кәбеҫтәгә.

Also, please correct the "usage" section for this template, namely the part: " This template is only for nouns ending in a consonant when they are in the absolute that only exist in the singular. It takes two arguments, which are just the final vowel, one in each argument".

As I understand, it should read: " This template is only for nouns ending in a vowel when they are in the absolute that only exist in the singular. It takes one argument, which is just the final vowel".

Cheers, Borovi4ok (talk) 14:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the documentation (it was a copy-paste error, I think). Just so you know, you could have done it yourself, by clicking [edit]. I'm not sure why those pages are getting faulty datives, but try them now with a second argument (like {{ba-noun-v-sing|ә|1}}) and see if it works. (But if that breaks something else, tell me.) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:00, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Metaknowledge,
Adding a second argument doesn't help :( The dative is still faulty.
BTW, there's the same problem with Австралия. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:00, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Same problem in Төркиә: dative is shown as identical to absolute, in black type. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:ba-noun-c[edit]

Metaknowledge,

this template doesn't work properly for дуҫ. Please see the required declenion at [17].

this template doesn't work properly for күҙ. Please see the required declenion at [18].

this template doesn't work properly for сүл. Please see the required declenion at [19].

this template doesn't work properly for ҡанун.

Thanks,Borovi4ok (talk) 15:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Borovi4ok. I'm glad to see things are progressing, though it's too bad about some of the template problems. MK told me he's super busy at the moment and it might take him longer than usual to respond to issues on Wiktionary. I'm sure he'll take a look at these templates as soon as he gets a chance :) --BB12 (talk) 16:28, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi BB12,
thanks for telling. Hope MK is back soon. Meanwhile, I'll coninue inserting declension templates into the Bashkir articles. There are not so many left. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Can you please get me a link to the correct declension of ҡанун (or just tell me which forms are wrong and what they should be)? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi Metaknowledge,
The declension of ҡанун is available here: [20].
For now, I see absolute sing. form in all fields. Borovi4ok (talk) 12:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

ҫупайҙы[edit]

This entry is a very loxalized dialect term - just checked in the Bashkir Dialects database. The standard (and the most widespread) term is һупайҙы.

I most probably know where this term comes from (Bashkir Wikipedia [21] - there it is stated as one of the numerous local terms), and I don't think we need to keep this entry in this project. Borovi4ok (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

What we usually do with that kind of entry around here is to replace the definition line with {{alternative form of|һупайҙы|lang=ba}}. Then you can add a section called ===Alternatives forms=== at the very top of the entry at һупайҙы and put in that section * [[ҫупайҙы]] {{qualifier|dialectal}}. If you can mark exactly what dialect says ҫупайҙы, that's even better. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:ba-noun-c-sing[edit]

Hi Metaknowledge, I've just discovered this template doesn't work right for кукуруз. Probably, I didn't tell you from the start that this template also has to handle nouns ending in .

Could you please modify the template so this word can be declined? The declension has to be as in [22]. Regards, Borovi4ok (talk) 15:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

мышар[edit]

What language is "sty"? DTLHS (talk) 01:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Making a three-letter judgement via the Edit button, I presume that's for the Mansi language, perhaps? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 01:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry guys,
that was meant to be "Siberian Tatar". Looks like no universal code exists for it. Borovi4ok (talk) 07:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

ice cream, majlis[edit]

Привет,

Добавь, пожалуйста переводы на башкирский и другие из Category:Translation requests (Bashkir) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Обрати внимание на мое исправление перевода на уйгурский @doll. :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Добрый день, Анатолий, спасибо за фидбэк.
Напомню, что уйгурский официально имеет две системы письма - на арабской основе и кириллицей. В этой связи, не считаю лучшей идеей удалять для уйг. слова кириллическое написание и оставлять один лишь арабский спеллинг.

1:Искренне ваш, Borovi4ok (talk) 08:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Спасибо. Трудно подтвердить "қочақ", тем более, что должно быть "қорчақ". Я добавил перевод на кириллице:
* Uyghur: {{t|ug|قورچاق|sc=Cyrl}}
*: Cyrillic: {{t|ug|қорчақ|tr=qorchak|sc=Cyrl}}
Вы так и не ответили на мою просьбу выше :). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Анатолий,
Как вы понимаете, я опираюсь на те словари, которые у меня есть.
"қочақ" вместо ожидаемого "қорчақ" - это не ошибка, а закономерное для уйгурского явление. Загляните в другие словари - и, возможно, сможете "подтвердить".
Вашу просьбу я принял к сведению. Этот список я видел. Borovi4ok (talk) 12:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Словари, где встречается "қочақ" не вызывают доверия, и подтвердить его использование невозможно в Google books. Если у вас есть надежный источник, добавьте альтернативную форму. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Анатолий, я уже понял, что что-либо вам доказать практически невозможно - вы в любом случае всё знаете лучше.
Буду очень благодарен, если мы с вами сможем поменьше пересекаться в данном проекте.
Искренне ваш, Borovi4ok (talk) 11:50, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Мне очень жаль, что я вызвал у вас такую реакцию. Поверьте, я ничего не делал, чтобы кому-то насолить или тем более доказать, что я знаю больше вас. Пересекаться может быть и придется, я оставляю за собой право редактировать везде, где это может быть уместно и правильно, даже, если вы тоже участвуете в редактировании той же статьи. Просто у меня широкий круг интересов в лингвистике, возможно неорганизованный. Избегать я столкновения с вами не собираюсь, даже если я вам так неприятен. Всего доброго. Можете не отвечать. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)