User talk:CodeCat

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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
User:CodeCat/lookup language519:54, 24 August 2014
mewbot mistake315:53, 24 August 2014
Status of the Finnish templates1116:20, 23 August 2014
Proto-Finnic declension301:29, 23 August 2014
Module:category tree/topic cat/Etymology522:48, 20 August 2014
Category:Norwegian Bokmål past participles111:33, 20 August 2014
Category:Ice cream322:07, 19 August 2014
Latin ''iecur'' genitive ''iocineris'' not so much ''iecineris''209:05, 18 August 2014
Undoing pedialite changes in mainspace420:28, 17 August 2014
Using unregistered transliteration modules1114:51, 16 August 2014
{{temp|diminutive of}}319:40, 15 August 2014
Appendix:Proto-Germanic/kelþan503:46, 14 August 2014
Disappeared categories120:57, 13 August 2014
Category:head tracking/no pos315:35, 12 August 2014
Template:pedia1407:33, 12 August 2014
Provinces of Tajikstan and Malay infinitive parameters519:44, 11 August 2014
Wikipedia template bug219:36, 11 August 2014
Hi117:17, 11 August 2014
supermaan112:33, 11 August 2014
Category:head tracking/singular category512:32, 9 August 2014
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User:CodeCat/lookup language

Since you asked for feedback, some nitpicks in no particular order:

  • You will be better off enabling JSHint options that I recommended. Especially undef.
  • You declared a dependency on LegacyScripts, but you are not using it anywhere. LegacyScripts should not be depended upon anyway. Having (new) scripts depend upon it defeats its only purpose: to make it possible to be disabled.
  • The callback function could be integrated straight into the .done() handler; well, unless you plan to call it from somewhere else.
  • I tend to keep one long-lived mw.Api object instead of creating a new one every time I need to call the API. Repeatedly constructing and destroying objects costs some time.
  • { 'a': 'b', } may not work in some IEs IIRC, some of which we might want to support. I do not really remember which.
  • If you had the form as a raw DOM node instead of a jQuery wrapper, you could access fields like: langcode = form.inputName.value (where inputName is the name property of the field). Though see below for an alternative, I think a less fragile one.
  • Some error handling would be nice. And more features, like looking up scripts, and reverse lookup (i.e. by name). And why force people to navigate to a specific page to use this? Though I realise this is just a prototype. Right?
  • xte has a similar feature already, implemented a bit differently.
  • I think Module:languages/JSON repacking one abstraction into another abstraction shows how the whole object-orientation business imposed upon Lua is silly.
  • Placement of {. Nearly every serious JS library (and some non-serious libraries) follows (Crockford's variant of) K&R here.
  • I really dislike jQuery. This may be just my taste, but I find that library too bloated, and I avoid using it unless 1) MediaWiki forces me to, or 2) I think I would end up writing a half-hearted reimplementation of something jQuery does already anyway if I avoided using it. I never use jQuery for constructing DOM — I tend to use the el function I copy everywhere (I really need to put it in a library), which is similar to newNode we have in LegacyScripts. You give it arguments describing a DOM element, and it returns a fully-formed node. The main advantage comes when you combine that with assignment-expressions:
var target = document.getElementById('mw-content-text'); // or sth
var input, button;
 
target.appendChild(el('form', [
	el('fieldset', [
		input = el('input', null, { type: 'text', value: 'boo' }),
		button = el('input', null, { type: 'submit', value: 'doit' }, {
			click: function (ev) {
				ev.preventDefault();
				alert(input.value.toUpperCase());				
			}
		}),
	])
], { 'action': 'javascript:void document.validity;' }));
 
// now input points to the input node, and button points to the button node, so callbacks work correctly
The code can be written quickly, executes quickly (almost at the speed of calling DOM methods directly; no string parsing voodoo like jQuery does), and when you get a bit used to it, is quite readable.
  • Also, if you use jQuery anyway, please be consistent — either use jQuery or $.
Keφr07:57, 24 August 2014

I used the newNode function before, but then I switched to just writing out the HTML directly and didn't need it anymore, but I forgot to remove it.

I used { 'a' : ... because the key is named "class" which is a keyword. I assumed that would mean I couldn't use it.

I didn't add error handling for now because it seemed to work fine even without it. It was only a simple prototype anyway, more of a proof of concept that could be worked out and improved further. I am hoping that it could eventually become a fully fledged search engine for our data, allowing you to query and pattern match against it. I don't know if I will have the time or motivation to finish it, but even in this simple form it may be useful to some people?

And I don't really have a problem with jQuery, so I'll keep using it until I find out what reason I should have to dislike it.

CodeCat17:28, 24 August 2014

You want to use jQuery — fine. Just use it sensibly. Building DOM is actually more direct — HTML has to be parsed, and parsing is costly. DOM nodes can be put into variables to be later used directly (instead of going through a jQuery wrapper object, often completely unnecessary), like I showed; putting everything into one long string and later plucking out interesting fragments complicates things. Also, carelessly manipulating the markup instead of DOM can lead to problems, like it did at MediaWiki:Gadget-FastRevert.js.

Time to start building a library, it seems. Rather easy to start: just create a gadget in MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition, and set the |skins=none option to hide it from Special:Preferences. Then use it just like you did with LegacyScripts.

About the fifth point, I was referring to the comma, not the apostrophes. (Quoting keys is actually necessary for compatibility.)

Keφr18:35, 24 August 2014

What would I use instead of the comma then?

CodeCat18:53, 24 August 2014

Nothing? Comma is a separator, not a terminator.

Keφr19:49, 24 August 2014

Oh I see now. Some languages allow a comma at the end of the list, I know both Python and Lua do. Since I prefer to place the actual terminator of the list on the next line by itself, putting a comma after the last element looks a bit more consistent. It's more a matter of code style than it really being useful for anything. If not all browsers support it I won't do it for JS.

CodeCat19:54, 24 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 

mewbot mistake

diff, not sure how many other pages there are.

DTLHS (talk)02:23, 24 August 2014

That's certainly annoying. I don't know how many other pages there are either. Would you know of a way to find out?

CodeCat12:52, 24 August 2014

Looked for lines starting with "=" and ending with "}": faccia, torni, liberi, veda, liberate, adori, viva, figli, celi, voglia, capitate, disputi, venite, levitate, levi, cremate, vada, dori, rida, desista, distingua, germinate, resista, conservate, rubate, dorma, rompete, rada, capisca, dica, trasporti, interessi, falsi, modelli, validi, impari, canzoni, limiti, abiti, lavori, accusi, ricompia

From the 8-19 dump, so some may be missing depending on when you ran your bot.

DTLHS (talk)15:45, 24 August 2014

Thank you for making the list, that saves me a lot of trouble. I'll work on fixing them.

CodeCat15:53, 24 August 2014
 
 
 

Status of the Finnish templates

You asked recently whether everything is Ok with the nominal templates. Well, I have a suggestion for further development. It would be good if there was a feature which would check that the inflection template produces a correct form in nominative singular. Currently it only checks that the editor has added a correct number of parameters, but it basically accepts any set of parameters. Thus, there is a risk that a typo goes unnoticed. Another useful feature would be a check of inclusion of the pos=adj definition in an adjective entry. In order to facilitate inclusion of exceptional cases, these features could only warn the editor.

Hekaheka (talk)05:30, 20 August 2014

I could do your first request, but not your second. Templates and modules can't "see" the rest of the page that they are included on. So they can't check if they are in a noun or adjective entry.

CodeCat11:31, 20 August 2014

OK. Another possible approach is that a suspicious inflection would result in a notification on the "Finnish terms needing attention" -page. If the editor finds that the inflection is correct after all, he could circumvent the notification procedure by adding parameter nocheck=1 to the template. Which ever is easier to program will do.

Hekaheka (talk)13:48, 20 August 2014

But what is suspicious? I think simply checking that the lemma of the template matches the page name is more effective at least in many cases.

CodeCat13:52, 20 August 2014

By "suspicious" I meant a case where the nominative singular and pagename do not match, i.e. the same that I wrote of in the opening comment of this chain. The difference between the two possible approaches is in what happens after a mismatch has been detected.

Hekaheka (talk)14:12, 20 August 2014

I've created Category:Finnish entries with inflection not matching pagename. But I haven't got it working right quite yet, so right now it contains many pages that don't belong there. I'm trying to find out what's wrong.

CodeCat14:13, 20 August 2014
 

I think I fixed it now, but I do have a question. Are there any nominals in Finnish that don't have a nominative form? Or verbs that have no first infinitive?

CodeCat14:20, 20 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Proto-Finnic declension

In reply to your comments at Wikipedia:

  1. Yes, *s : *h is not attested in radical gradation at all. It only applies as suffixal gradation, i.e. regardless of syllable closure (hence essive forms such as *hambas : *hambahe-na > Fi. hampaana). I believe this had at the PF level already been analogically extended to trisyllabic forms like *kuniŋgas. OTOH *mees-nä > miessä has been attested for "man", so this root seems to have remained non-gradating for some time.
  2. Chronologically *-t- has been proposed to be more original, but per Lauri Hakulinen in Suomen kielen rakenne ja kehitys, also *-tt- must've existed in Proto-Finnic already. He mentions a derivation based on forms where *-tt- is segmentable, with the 1st *-t- being from the stem.
    (The causatives with *-tt- are not related — these are either from PU *-pta, or from stacking two instances of PU *-ta, as in Fi. mätä ('rotten') → mädätä ('to rot', itr.) → mädättää ('to rot', tr.))
  3. An interesting idea. Hakulinen reports some similar effects from the plural genitives of *k-stems, such as *estek-ten > estetten (modern Fi has *estek-i-ten > esteiden, and the analogical esteitten). This is well into OR territory though, and it's a problem that stem-medial *-kt- > *-tt- in South Estonian does gradate (*vakto-n > vatu, vs. Fi. vaahdon).
    (I think this would even fit well into an article I am working on. It's not likely to come out in a few years, but I'll take a mental note to credit you if this turns out to not have been noticed before!)
  4. It's possible that we might need to still reconstruct *-sna for (Middle) Proto-Finnic, yes — especially since the variant *-hna is also attested from the Southern Ostrobothnian dialect of Finnish (alongside *-ssa there). I'd want to see some sources for this though, since I don't know what South Estonian does for the potentials and essives of *s-stems (as in Fi. pestä : *pes-ne-(pi) > pessee; *tois-na > toissa). It's possible that rather than a cluster simplification, this involved the influence of the gradation *s : *h, perhaps via a contamination with the illative (*-zen, *-sna > *-zen, *-zna > *-hen, *-hna).
  5. The conditional is a relatively complicated issue, as one needs to account for the Samic languages having the supposedly innovative form with *-ńćə- (and not *-k-ńćə-). I don't think though that an imperfect conditional has been attested anywhere in Finnic.
    — OTOH yes, Hakulinen reports that 1PP -meˣ and 2PP -eˣ (and even -maˣ and -aˣ with an open vowel!) in the imperfect and conditional are attested from Finnish dialects.

Other comments that come to my mind:

  • The present passive originally ended in *-k-sen (according to Hakulinen, per Estonian, Votic and Veps), with *-(t)ta-hen in Finnish being a later innovation formed after the imperfect and the participles.
  • Marking half-long consonants with an apostrophe seems confusing. I suggest either sticking with traditional t̆t or IPA /tˑ/.
  • You'll probably need to add consonant-stem partitives for words like *hooneh 'room' (> *hoonehta). The Finnish forms like huonetta are remodelled after the *-k-stems, as are many other parts of the *-h-stems' inflection.
  • If we're working with Middle Proto-Finnic, the abessive ought to still be *-ktA.

Cheers!

Tropylium (talk)23:44, 21 August 2014

If *s : *h gradation is suffixal rather than radical, then that means the rule is that it weakens at the beginning of every non-initial odd-numbered syllable, right? But then, as you say, it was analogically extended to trisyllabic forms, and it apparently was extended to *mees as well. On the other hand, when I applied the older radical gradation rule for *s, out rolled the illatives *kuninkasehen and *kuninkasihen, which explain -s- of the Finnish forms kuninkaaseen and kuninkaisiin very well indeed. So in this case, the *-s- cannot have been gradated and must have remained. If that's true, then it begs the question why *s was analogically gradated to *h in all the other cases but not in this one. I really wonder what rules, if any, applied to *s : *h gradation in Proto-Finnic times.

I've now added alternative forms of the passives with both *t and *tt in the ending, and applied syncope to the former one as usual. But the present passive connegative is a bit tricky. If the regular present passive was *-ksen, then the expected equivalent form of the connegative would be *-ktAk. Is this right?

As for gradation of tt < *kt in South Estonian, that could very easily be analogical. After all, *ht : *hd in Finnish is analogical as well, isn't it? I don't think you can put too much weight on that.

I don't know a lot about the inflections of other Finnic languages than Finnish and Estonian. I know that Finnish has a potential, but I thought it was a typically northern feature, so is it attested in South Estonian at all? Also, was contraction of *-sen- > *-sn- > *-ss- regular in the inessive? Given that it was regular in the potential, I assume so.

When I created the conditional forms, I assumed that the sibilant in the mood marker was *c and that it may have formed through assibilation. But I did that because otherwise, with the radical gradation of *s, it would end up as *h more often than not. If *s was not subject to radical gradation after all, then *s could of course be the real phoneme here, rather than *c. But Sami has what seems to be a precursor to *c, so is *c right after all?

I've now adjusted the non-present 1pl and 2pl ending to have a single consonant instead of a geminate. But of course, the single *t in the 2pl would have triggered syncope of a preceding *e. This would include at least the optative *-tedek > *-t'ek, and the potential *-nedek > *-ndek. But of course if the *-n- of the potential marker also contracts with the preceding consonant in some cases, so what would happen in this case? *-lndek, *-nndek, *-sndek don't seem like allowable combinations, so they must have either simplified, or contraction of one syllable must have blocked the other from doing the same. What do you think is most likely here?

How regular was contraction of *-het- (< *-šet-) and *-ket-? In Finnish it rarely appears at all, only clearly affecting tehdä and nähdä. Is it safe to assume that contraction of at least *-het- > *-ht- was regular?

CodeCat00:31, 22 August 2014

The illatives of *s-stems are actually from forms like †kuninkaasen < *kuninkahe-sen with the stem in the weak grade as expected, and hence the ending in the strong grade. The long-vocalic endings -seen, -siin are by analogy to diminutives like punaiseen < *punaise-hen.

The sibilant in the conditionals has certainly been *-c-, yes. The mood marker ,has been explained to have developed from the continuative verbal suffix *-ice-, as in ilo 'joy' : iloitse- 'to revel'.

On syncope:

  • I'm not sure what you mean by "contraction in the inessive". We have no evidence of any former vowel between *s and *n in the ending.
  • Loss of two subsequent vowels is not attested anywhere, no. I guess the analogy of the other personal endings would have kept the 2PS potentials from contracting.
  • IIUC there is no original *-te- element in the optatives: the long vowels are shaped after the relatively frequently used 3PS forms. Hence *-gotek, etc.
  • I think *-ht- < *-šet- is pretty much regular, yes. Though of course this is not found in the inflection of words like hanhi or karhi where another consonant precedes. CCC contracted forms like *kante-ta- > *kantta- > *katta- 'to cover' were fossilized already by Proto-Finnic.
  • Syncope before *k is exceptional and indeed does not seem to have occurred anywhere else than in nähdä, tehdä and their passives nähnyt, tehnyt. I wonder if the fact that all other -ke-stem words are back-vocalic (e.g. lukea, pukea) or nominals (e.g. mäki, väki) has something to do with this. It may also be relevant that these verbs have an exceptional inflection in Livonian, based largely on the monosyllabic stems nǟ-, tīe- (which look like as if they were from *näxə-, *texə- and not *näkə-, *tekə-).
Tropylium (talk)01:02, 23 August 2014

Thank you for your answers. I meant essive not inessive, sorry about that.

For *s : *h gradation, should I apply the following rules?

  • If the stem ends in -Vse- and the nominative ends in -s, then it always weakens when a vowel follows it. The following illative -s- will appear in the strong grade.
  • In all other cases, the illative -s- weakens to -h-.

Would these rules give the correct inflections, or are there other considerations? What about verbs with -Vse- stems?

CodeCat01:29, 23 August 2014
 
 
 

Module:category tree/topic cat/Etymology

Um, you removed an actual page from the category tree and replaced it with a redirect.

Purplebackpack8922:26, 20 August 2014

Which page?

CodeCat22:34, 20 August 2014
Edited by author.
Last edit: 22:40, 20 August 2014

Category:Biblical derivations. Per its text, it should be empty, and near as I can figure, the only to way to empty it is to remove it from Module:category tree/topic cat/Etymology and add the thing it redirects to, which is what I was trying to do.

Purplebackpack8922:36, 20 August 2014

Not at all. What you did was, in fact, to add categories named Category:en:Terms derived from the Bible by language and such, which are not what you want.

The only way to empty the category is by editing the pages it contains and remove the category from them manually.

CodeCat22:39, 20 August 2014

Um, pretty sure that's not the case, because the category isn't on any of those pages; it is categorized that way due to the module. And, since redirects shouldn't really be in the category tree anyway, Category:Biblical derivations should be removed from the module even if nothing is there to replace it.

Purplebackpack8922:42, 20 August 2014

But Category:Terms derived from the Bible by language already exists and has existed for a while now. So I'm not sure what the "rename" you're performing is supposed to achieve. As I said, the only way to empty out the subcategories of Category:Biblical derivations is to edit each entry and rename the category in the entry.

CodeCat22:48, 20 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Category:Norwegian Bokmål past participles

Hello CodeCat,

please re-open the following category:
Category:Norwegian Bokmål past participles
Reason: it has a member now.

-- Cadfaell (talk) 08:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Cadfaell (talk)08:47, 20 August 2014

I regularly check the wanted categories list and use a bot to create any that appear there. So if you add something to a category that was deleted before, it will be recreated automatically after a few days.

CodeCat11:33, 20 August 2014
 

While I have not reverted your edit to the category tree, I believe you were in error in removing ice cream from the dessert category, as ice cream is nearly always classified as a dessert, is mentioned as a dessert in the definition, and appears categorized this way at Wikipedia.

Purplebackpack8922:00, 19 August 2014

A dessert is any food that is eaten at the end of a meal. Thus, any food that is eaten like that is a dessert. If I eat steak after a meal, then steak is a dessert. So dessert is not a good way to categorise foods as it contains things that are typically eaten as desserts. But you probably know that this can vary widely by culture. Pancakes are eaten for breakfast in the US, while in the Netherlands they are eaten as dinner, for example. So I think that the category "Desserts" is too vague and should be changed into something more objective and culturally independent.

CodeCat22:04, 19 August 2014

If you truly think that, nominate Category:Desserts for deletion, or discuss it at the beer parlour.

Purplebackpack8922:06, 19 August 2014

I just did.

CodeCat22:07, 19 August 2014
 
 
 

Latin ''iecur'' genitive ''iocineris'' not so much ''iecineris''

You've done work on Latin so you might want to look at this ... standard references on PIE etc. typically mention Latin iecur as having genitive iocineris, with iecinoris a late form. Wiktionary lists iecinoris as the genitive of iecur, whereas iocineris is claimed to be the genitive of iocur, which I suspect is an even later form back-formed on iocineris. This should be fixed.

Benwing (talk)06:47, 18 August 2014

I don't know enough about Latin to comment on this. I think it would be better to bring it up on the Tea Room.

CodeCat08:28, 18 August 2014

Brought up in Tea Room.

Benwing (talk)09:05, 18 August 2014
 
 

Undoing pedialite changes in mainspace

I request that you use your bot to undo the changes you made in the mainspace concerning template pedialite. Now as before, my stance is that you should not have done that without a discussion. Now that you know positively that there is no consensus for your change as per Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/August#Not_renaming_template_pedialite, the only right thing to do, IMHO, is undo the changes using your bot.

Dan Polansky (talk)20:14, 17 August 2014

How would I undo the changes?

CodeCat20:15, 17 August 2014

You would do that by running a bot in a way that changes {{projectlinks|wikipedia|...}} to {{pedialite|...}}. You would do it basically using the same technique that you used to implement the changes in the first place.

Dan Polansky (talk)20:24, 17 August 2014

There is no consensus for replacing {{projectlinks|wikipedia|...}} with {{pedialite|...}}.

CodeCat20:28, 17 August 2014

I am breathless.

Dan Polansky (talk)20:28, 17 August 2014
 
 
 
 

Using unregistered transliteration modules

I saw this edit of yours, which fixed the module error, but not the actual problem. The problem is that transliteration modules can only be accessed through Module:languages, which requires a language code and looks up the registered module, but Module:ar-translit is not registered (because it is incomplete and possibly still a work in progress). There needs to be a way to test these unregistered transliteration modules. I was thinking something like {{xlit|Module:ar-translit|...}} should recognize that it was not given a language code and somehow access the module directly, but this clearly cannot be done directly from a template. Should we create a new template and module for this? Or should we add some sort support for this in Module:languages? Or is there already a way to do this that I'm missing?

WikiTiki8914:02, 16 August 2014

I don't really know why the transliteration module was giving an error to begin with. I didn't look at it in much detail.

CodeCat14:04, 16 August 2014

So what you're saying is that it could have been accessed directly, but the module itself was malfunctioning?

WikiTiki8914:09, 16 August 2014

I think so, I don't know. I didn't look at the module error text.

CodeCat14:14, 16 August 2014

No, I was right to begin with. The error is caused by the fact that the tr function isn't meant to be invoked directly from a template. So everything I said in my first post here still stands.

WikiTiki8914:18, 16 August 2014

It would be possible to add a "module_override" parameter to transliterate in Module:languages. That way you could transliterate texts with a module other than the registered one. Your method would not work, because the language code is also passed to the transliteration module as a parameter.

We should make it clear though that this new function would only be for testing purposes, to avoid people using it too often. Maybe a tracking template should track all uses of this parameter?

CodeCat14:23, 16 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 

{{temp|diminutive of}}

If variable "pos=noun" (see καραφάκι) is used in this template the item is placed in Greek diminutive noun (missing "s"). Since it defaults to nouns if "pos" isn't used I hadn't spotted this before

Saltmarshαπάντηση
19:01, 15 August 2014

You can type pos=nouns?

CodeCat19:03, 15 August 2014

Yes of course - but that is not a logical way for it to work :)/?

Saltmarshαπάντηση
19:35, 15 August 2014

From a user point of view yes, but the problem is that the template can never accurately predict what the plural is. English spelling is not very regular, and not all plurals are formed just by adding -s, and those would break the template. I think it's better if the parameter is already given in plural. That way, you don't have to make strange workarounds, it's much simpler: just type the name as it should appear.

CodeCat19:40, 15 August 2014
 
 
 

I saw you moved this from keldaz. Torp says "Stamm keldiz, keldaz" [i.e. z stem], but that is obviously not a very up-to-date source, so I was a little iffy about it (especially with descendants only in the English branch), but I don't know about this either. What about the umlaut (e>i)? Also, is the change -lþ- > -ld- regular? Then I wonder whether this might perhaps come from *kindą instead (as it seems to have replaced that word), but with influence from *kilþį̄, *kulþaz. – Krun (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Krun (talk)18:48, 22 September 2012

I'm not actually quite sure. I found the reference to it being an a-stem on etymonline.com, but we'd need an Old English editor to confirm it. The change lþ > ld is regular for West Germanic, there are other words like gold where it happened too. I'm not actually sure about the stem vowel, but if kull is a cognate, the stem vowel must have been -e- unless it was umlauted to -i-. It could only have been -i- if the stem originally had -y- in it, i.e. e-grade -ey- (> -ī-), zero grade -i-. But kull must be a zero-grade kulþ-, so the e-grade must be kelþ-. lþ is also the only possible etymology for West Germanic ld paired with North Germanic ll, because a Germanic ld would have become ld in North Germanic also. And then there is Gothic kilþei (kilþei).

CodeCat19:05, 22 September 2012

I did a quick search of our Old English noun category and I seem to have found at least one parallel for the e>i change in an a-stem: knehtaz > cniht, although this also has variants (cneht, cneoht); this seems to show the possibility, at least. I would still be very curious to see any theories as to the absence of *cind (< *kindą) in Old English and its connection to cild. – Krun (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Krun (talk)00:03, 23 September 2012

I think many people have wondered that, it is certainly curious. It's quite possible that the two words were mixed up in the early languages, and that cild took its z-stem inflection from *cind. But that doesn't explain the i, really. For eht > iht it's a regular change, but there is no parallel for elþ > ild. The closest we can get is gieldan from Template:termx, but that's -ie-, not -i-.

CodeCat00:12, 23 September 2012
 
 

Hi folks, here's a more up-to-date source placing ċild as z-stem. Does this satisfy?

LokiClock (talk)11:48, 13 January 2013

In A Handbook of Germanic Erymology by Vladimir Orel published 2003, the entry *kelþaz is listed as a neuter z-stem. As far as I know, z-stems were not productive in Old English. A noun from an unproductive class (like the z-stems) would be more likely to be moved to a more productive class (like the regular a-stems) rather than the other way around. It would not make sense if (ċild, ċildru) were originally an a-stem then switched over to an unproductive z-stem.

Nayrb Rellimer (talk)03:46, 14 August 2014
 
 

Disappeared categories

Do you have something to do with the disappearance of a number of categories from the page: Category:Requests_(Finnish)? Five categories have jumped to subcategories of: Category:Finnish terms needing attention. I don't like this change, because now I have to check two places insted of one when I want to see whether there are any new requests for Finnish.

Hekaheka (talk)20:53, 13 August 2014

Actually what I'm doing is the opposite, moving them all to the same category. I agree that it's confusing when there are two different categories like before. It was never clear to me what the difference was.

CodeCat20:57, 13 August 2014
 

Could we split this by lang? Is having a pos now recommended? I haven't seen that anywhere but I don't really check anymore so it wouldn't be surprising if I had missed it!

Renard Migrant (talk)15:28, 12 August 2014

Splitting it by language would lead to the creation of lots of categories. So instead it uses a template for tracking. If you edit an entry and look at the templates it transcluded, you'll see a few redlinked templates there that track the language. It's cleaner and less intrusive that way.

The reason for always including a part of speech has to do with the recent change to have lemma and non-lemma categories. The template can only determine which of the two categories to add an entry to if a part of speech is provided. So without a part of speech, the entry will not be categorised in a lemma/non-lemma category.

CodeCat15:33, 12 August 2014

I was gonna fix all the French entries, but I can no longer find them!

Renard Migrant (talk)15:34, 12 August 2014
 
 

Please stop messing around with Template:pedia. You have succeeded in breaking what is shown on articles. You also don't have a consensus for your edits. Please revert everything to what it was earlier this afternoon, and discuss it at the Beer parlour or RFD/O before continuing further.

Purplebackpack8923:45, 11 August 2014

What are you talking about? Everything looks fine to me. Have you tried refreshing or null-editing?

CodeCat23:49, 11 August 2014

It's working now, but you still don't have a consensus to move it (as it was a BOLD move, and I object to it), and you should have explained why in an edit summary why you were doing what you were doing. How many times do people have to tell you to start using edit summaries before you actually USE them?

Purplebackpack8923:51, 11 August 2014

I think you're mistaken. Template:pedia has been a redirect for a long time, all I did was change what it points to because that page got moved. When you reverted my change, you actually broke the template.

As for Template:PL:pedia, nobody cares about that because it's not used directly in entries, it was only called via Template:projectlink. So I moved it to better reflect that.

CodeCat23:54, 11 August 2014

You shoulda discussed it before doing it, and clearly explained why you did what you did. You did neither, and you edit-warred on top of it. I cannot for the life of me fathom why you think that acceptable

Purplebackpack8923:57, 11 August 2014

Why would a technical move of an infrastructure template that is only called by other templates need to be discussed?

CodeCat00:00, 12 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Provinces of Tajikstan and Malay infinitive parameters

Could we modify the Tajikistan label to include the category Provinces of Tajikstan? Fanatix asked me to add the meng- and ber- parameters to {{ms-adj}} (see Fanatix's talk page to know what I mean). Is that possible?

Lo Ximiendo (talk)19:00, 11 August 2014

You could also have a look at Malay verb antara, too.

Lo Ximiendo (talk)19:02, 11 August 2014

I don't really understand how Malay verbs work, so I don't know what these parameters are supposed to do.

CodeCat19:32, 11 August 2014

They add the prefixes meng- and ber- to the headword depending on which one you choose. For example, infin=meng or infin=ber ... Does that clear things up?

Lo Ximiendo (talk)19:40, 11 August 2014

Is there a reason why we don't put the entries at the page names that include those prefixes already?

CodeCat19:41, 11 August 2014

Ask Fanatix (talkcontribs), because of their knowledge of the Malay language.

Lo Ximiendo (talk)19:44, 11 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Wikipedia template bug

A quick heads-up: your edits to the Wikipedia template have caused module errors with language code "nrm" in at least some Jèrriais entries.

Chuck Entz (talk)02:18, 11 August 2014

It has already been fixed.

CodeCat02:19, 11 August 2014

Thanks. And thanks for Luacizing Template:wikimedia language and Template:wikimedia language name. Still not a discussed change, lol, but a good change IMO—it did seem wasteful to not only have two templates for Wikimedia-language-code conversion, but have them separate from the existing structure of Module:languages.

- -sche (discuss)19:36, 11 August 2014
 
 

Hate you very much. Bye.

Munjanes (talk)17:00, 11 August 2014

Thank you. :)

CodeCat17:17, 11 August 2014
 

Hey. Is supermaan correct?

Type56op9 (talk)12:33, 11 August 2014

I have never heard of the word, but it doesn't seem wrong.

CodeCat12:33, 11 August 2014
 

What are you planning to do with this category? I notice this news. For {{head}} to be able to handle the second parameter being input in the plural seems sensible. But I would strongly oppose changing existing uses of the singular to the plural.

- -sche (discuss)05:34, 7 August 2014

I have undone your edits to the German and English headword templates. It would be helpful if you undid your other edits, or demonstrated that there was some kind of consensus for them.

I sympathize that you may not have anticipated that this massive change (Category:head tracking/singular category is climbing towards a million members) would be controversial. But then, that is why it is useful to discuss such changes before making them.

- -sche (discuss)05:53, 7 August 2014

My experience with proposing changes lately is that they get opposed without any reason, "just because", "because it was fine before" or even because it's me proposing it. I can hardly build consensus for a change when faced with something like that. I might be more willing to discuss if I felt people were actually willing to be open to the idea.

CodeCat11:47, 7 August 2014

If something is fine before a given change, and people prefer how it is to how the change would make it, though — well, there's a guideline on WP that explains it pretty well, in my opinion: "Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted." It also sounds like it's becoming a chicken-and-egg issue, if you don't want to discuss proposals because you think they'll be opposed, while some of the people who've opposed some of your recent proposals seem to be unhappy with your tendency to make mass changes without consensus.

In this case, I think it's logical for the parameter supplied to {{head}} to be singular like the part of speech itself and the part-of-speech header (cat is a "noun", not a "nouns"). Your post on WT:NFE about bringing {{head}} "in line with the catN= parameters, which already take the name in plural form" suggests that you think that is more logical, so in the absence of others' comments, I suppose our opinions on what is logical may cancel out... though I'm guessing "catN=" is less common than either instances of {{head}} or part-of-speech headers, since I can't think of what "catN=" is. (I.e., I'm guessing there are more singular things for {{head}} to align with than plural things.) Typing out the plural also (a) takes more keystrokes (DCDuring's perennial concern, and increasingly a concern of mine as well), and (b) requires relearning, since people are accustomed to putting the part of speech into {{head}} in the singular.

You might say that isn't a reason not to change existing entries and templates, but to that I'd say: (a) there's also no reason to change the existing templates and entries (and it's making changes, rather than not making them, which requires justification and consensus); and (b) I'm well aware that when changes are made en masse to deprecate something from existing entries and templates, there are sooner or later efforts to ban the thing from new entries, on the grounds that "there are only a few entries that use this anymore".

- -sche (discuss)17:55, 7 August 2014

The way I see it, it makes more sense if the second parameter is treated as just the first in the series of category parameters. This is especially so if there is no cat= parameter, but only cat2=. There was actually a cat= parameter before, but I removed it as it wasn't used in many places and with some adjustments it could be omitted.

Another important reason is that templates can never perfectly predict what the plural of any given bit of text is going to be. Long ago, {{poscatboiler}} and similar templates (the ones we just merged into it) used to take their second parameter just like {{head}}, in singular, presumably to match it and make it intuitively easier. But that led to an increasing number of words that all had to be added to {{theplural}} (which did the pluralisation), which was a pain and in some cases it didn't even make any sense to speak of a singular. For example, think of what we might have done in the case of Category:English terms by etymology; would we have used "term by etymology" as the singular? That wouldn't have made any sense, and so at the time I think I made the (fairly unilateral, if I remember) decision to make the parameter already pluralised, so that it could be used as the category name verbatim.

The same reasoning applies here. Pluralising automatically is always going to lead to problems and exceptions; Module:headword/templates already has a list of words that should not be pluralised in the regular way. There are probably also terms that don't allow themselves to be de-pluralised in a sensible way, like the example above. By making this change, I am hoping to simply the template/module logic and make the process more straightforward: what you type is what appears in the category name. That would eliminate the need for strange workarounds like the list of exceptions and, in the past, the cat= parameter.

And finally, there is the argument of consistency with {{poscatboiler}}. This template originally pluralised its parameter because {{head}} did. Now that it no longer does, we might as well make {{head}} match it once again, by taking the parameter verbatim as well.

CodeCat18:06, 7 August 2014

I agree with User:-sche. I think consistency with part-of-speech headers and other headword templates (===Noun==={{en-noun}}{{head|en|noun}}) is more important than that with category boilerplate templates (which ideally only bots should add, and humans need not think about).

It also makes sense conceptually to have category templates use the plural while the headword templates use singular: categories contain multiple words, but the headword template deals with only one word. The second positional parameter to {{head}} is not merely a category name fragment; it is also used to distinguish lemmata from non-lemmata now, and even more semantics may be assigned to it, which may make pluralisation even more questionable.

Pluralisation in category names can be handled by a case-by-case mapping. Inventing a new part of speech is something that needs community attention anyway.

Keφr12:32, 9 August 2014
 
 
 
 
 
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