User talk:CodeCat

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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
Why the rush?519:10, 24 April 2014
Category:Context labels817:35, 24 April 2014
regionalisms615:20, 23 April 2014
Please preview biltvätt518:08, 21 April 2014
Why did you delete so many categories?514:06, 21 April 2014
Ancient Greek alternative forms411:38, 21 April 2014
Help with a Gaulish template120:06, 20 April 2014
Template:eo-part-sublemma115:06, 19 April 2014
Recent Romanian translations217:54, 18 April 2014
Slovenian in BabelBox1001:54, 16 April 2014
Please delete EMPTY "in simplified script‎"/"in traditional script‎" categories214:12, 15 April 2014
Serbo-Croatian112:53, 15 April 2014
Paranteze112:53, 14 April 2014
nv-Latn016:34, 13 April 2014
Uppan112:53, 13 April 2014
Username report118:25, 12 April 2014
derp & Derpy118:31, 11 April 2014
PGmc adverbs update915:23, 11 April 2014
Thanks!107:09, 10 April 2014
A problem with Template:circumfix1021:41, 8 April 2014
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Why the rush?

There were some discussions about moving the gloss parameter in "mention" templates. I think we should resolve them first before changing everything to use Template:m.

Keφr14:18, 24 April 2014

Why? The consensus for that is not so strong at all, so we should work on the things that there is agreement for first.

CodeCat16:05, 24 April 2014

I think there was enough consensus to implement something and see if it sticks. The disagreements were about quite minor details.

Keφr17:41, 24 April 2014

Well, I think it's quite major. We should work this out more before making any changes, because it has a wide effect on many templates, not just the linking templates. It's a complete change in standard practice across Wiktionary. For example, it would also affect templates like {{form of}}, {{suffixcat}} and others. Anything that's used to link to another entry in one way or another.

Personally, I'm not decided whether a change is even desirable. The nice thing about {{l}} and the likes is that the two term parameters mimic how plain wikilinks work. {{l|la|ordō|ordō}} somewhat resembles [[ordo|ordō]], which is a bonus for those who understand wikicode and only need to learn Wiktionary's practice. It makes the practice relatively simple: take the existing plain wikilink, remove the square brackets, and wrap it inside {{l|(lang)|......}}. However, if we are to change anything at all, I think the best whould be to move the gloss down one parameter, and use alt= for the display form.

In any case, renaming {{term/t}} and {{term}} to {{m}} doesn't really have anything to do with that, because it only affects one template and does not affect any proposed change in the parameters.

CodeCat17:51, 24 April 2014

It kind of does, becauſe when the new ſyntax is agreed upon, we will have to rewrite all direct tranſcluſions of "mention" templates all over again. So we might as well do it in one go.

And wiþ some care, the whole change does not have to be ſuch a flag day eiþer. I added a ſeparate "incompat" mode ſpecifically to give it chance to be teſted in a ſmall ſcale before changing all templates.

And by þe way: I would like to ſee a |nongloss= parameter (or ſimilar) added to templates for annotating terms with non-gloſs definitions. Say, {{m|pl|-ek|nongloss=diminutive ſuffix}}.

Keφr19:02, 24 April 2014

You're thinking of it in time and effort terms. But it's almost no effort to run a bot twice, and time isn't really an issue either is it? In fact, to change the parameters around we would need to create tracking categories/templates first anyway, to feed such a bot.

And {{l}} has a pos= parameter which does what you describe, more or less.

CodeCat19:10, 24 April 2014
Edited by another user.
Last edit: 17:35, 24 April 2014

I took some time off to focus on my studies and noticed a major change has occurred. I am trying to gather all the pertinent information so that I can not make mistakes as I edit. I noticed you are involved in the deletion process and was wondering if you can help me out. What has replaced the context labels from Category:Context labels? Any help would be appreciated.

Speednat (talk)23:27, 26 November 2013
Edited by author.
Last edit: 23:40, 26 November 2013

They're now in Module:labels/data. You can delete the old ones, but they need to be orphaned first if they're not already.

CodeCat23:40, 26 November 2013

Can you point me to some pages that have used this "module"?

Speednat (talk)00:07, 27 November 2013


CodeCat00:13, 27 November 2013
Edited by 2 users.
Last edit: 00:53, 7 December 2013

I am thoroughly confused. Do I still use the {{context}}template? So for example, for an archaic, british english, military term.


(US, archaic, military)

or is there something new. Because what I am reading on the modules:labels/data pages seems to infer that that whole family of lables/templates are being deleted.

What should I be doing on a page that I edit today?

Speednat (talk)00:26, 27 November 2013

It's used the same way as it was before. The only difference is that you can't use the label templates alone, like just {{US|archaic|military}}. You have to put {{context}} in front for it to work. You can also use {{cx}} which is a shorthand. {{label}} is another alternative which takes the language code as its first parameter, instead of as lang=.

What has changed is the way the label data itself is stored and processed. When you want to create a new "recognised" label, you don't create a template, you add an entry for it in Module:labels/data instead.

CodeCat00:47, 27 November 2013


A good portion of the terms where I added the regional qualifier were automaticaly converted from the old Bosnian entries, so I assume lots of them could be limited only to Bosnia. I'm adding regional wherever HJP says regional (HJP considers the entire BSC region, not just Croatia), and additionally Serbian wherever HJP marks it as Serbian.

I haven't touched any terms that are standard or even typical of Croatia., 21 April 2014

I suppose the real question is, would HJP label terms used only in Croatia as "regional"? If it doesn't, then it can't really be considered reliable for SC as a whole.

CodeCat16:51, 21 April 2014

It depends. If it's a Croatian-only term used in specific regions of Croatia, yes it would be labeled as regional on HJP. If it's a standard (non-newly-coined) Croatian term used in Croatia, but not used in either Bosnia or Serbia, then it would obviously not be labeled as regional. If it's a newly-coined term that's not used in Croatia, then it is labeled as such.

The terms I've labeled are largely unknown in Croatia and are the whole reason why I'm going through Turkish/Persian loanwords. I'm surprised that they were added without any context when you'd be hard-pressed to find a person knowing them in Croatia (and I assume the majority aren't even well-known in Serbia). None of the terms that I edited are standard (not even Serbo-Croatian standard). For example, the last term I edited (minđuha) had no context label. It has a whopping 2 relevant results on .rs, 0 relevant results on .hr and less than 10 results for .ba., 21 April 2014

But this is kind of my point. HJP is writing from a Croatian point of view, so it labels terms as "regional" if they're not general in Croatia. So let's say that a term is widely used in Serbia and Bosnia alike, and is only regional within Croatia. Then HJP would presumably label it regional as well, because they write from the point of view of Croatia. But that doesn't seem right at all here, as in this case Croatia would be the "oddball" in how the term is used there. Someone in Serbia or Bosnia would never label the term "regional" because, from their point of view, the term is used almost everywhere, and only some areas of Croatia lack it.

So I'm not sure if HJP labelling terms "regional" is enough for them to be considered regional for Serbo-Croatian generally.

CodeCat17:14, 21 April 2014

Well, for what it's worth, when a word is the proper and standard term in Bosnia or Serbia, then it's not marked as a regionalism on HJP, it's marked with a specific qualifier (i.e. "srp."). I've labeled all such terms.

As it is, having all the words that I marked as unmarked would imply to a foreigner (or anyone who doesn't speak the language) that it is used across BCS, when it clearly isn't and they're for the most part unknown outside of Bosnia., 21 April 2014

I understand. But labelling them only as "regional" doesn't help much either. It depends on where the reader is expecting to find the word. It creates more questions than it solves, because a reader might now wonder "if I go to Dubrovnik/Zagreb/Novi Sad/Podgorica/Tuzla and use this word, would that cause problems?". The doubt that is cast by the term "regional" might cause an otherwise uninformed reader to avoid using the word altogether.

CodeCat17:37, 21 April 2014

before reverting it.

kc_kennylau (talk)02:30, 19 April 2014

Please fix Template:sv-noun-reg-ar.

CodeCat02:31, 19 April 2014

My edit on your module fixed it but you ******* reverted it

kc_kennylau (talk)03:15, 19 April 2014

Whta the f*** is going on? All -ar type Swedish declensions are messed up.

Hekaheka (talk)03:25, 19 April 2014

I fixed the -ar types by treating empty strings as valid pagename but this guys ******* reverted it

kc_kennylau (talk)03:30, 19 April 2014

Whatever, but it seems solved now.

Hekaheka (talk)18:08, 21 April 2014

Why did you delete so many categories?

Category:German verb second-person forms, Category:German verb subjunctive forms, Category:German verb singular forms, ...

kc_kennylau (talk)11:55, 21 April 2014

They seemed kind of pointless to me, like categorising for the sake of categorising.

CodeCat12:06, 21 April 2014

They are added automatically by {{de-verb form of}}.

kc_kennylau (talk)13:20, 21 April 2014

Yes, I removed that.

CodeCat13:47, 21 April 2014

But the categories are still full of pages

kc_kennylau (talk)14:01, 21 April 2014

That's just because the software is slow with updating. If you do a null edit on the pages they go away.

CodeCat14:06, 21 April 2014

Ancient Greek alternative forms

Right, but I don't really know where else to put them. I took a look at the subcategories of Category:English alternative forms, and no one really fit for the purpose of Ancient Greek.

Fsojic (talk)21:24, 13 April 2014

Do they need to be put anywhere at all? I'm not sure I understand.

CodeCat21:26, 13 April 2014

Maybe you're right. It's just that I don't like to have them in the Category:Ancient Greek verbs as if they were full lemmas, but my doing doesn't change anything anyway.

Fsojic (talk)10:16, 21 April 2014

Another question: why are parameters such as sc=polytonic kept in {{t}}, while they were removed anywhere else?

Fsojic (talk)10:22, 21 April 2014

They are full lemmas though. By our definition, alternative forms are lemmas that can be used instead of another, with no strong preference given to one or another. If there is a preference, the other should be labelled "rare" or something like that.

sc= was not removed anywhere, it's just no longer necessary in most cases. It's not different for {{t}}.

CodeCat11:38, 21 April 2014

Help with a Gaulish template

Hello CodeCat,

I'm in the need of your help as I started creating a template for the Gaulish declension however the a-stem declension table I began with takes in all the terms below the grid if used in a Wiktionary entry and I can't skip the vocative plural because this form isn't attested or doesn't exist, it pulls the accusative singular form into that place. Do you know how to solve this problem?

I'd be very glad for your help :)! Greetings HeliosX (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

HeliosX (talk)19:58, 20 April 2014

I generally recommend that "empty" inflection table templates should use named parameters instead of numbered ones. That way you can always be sure that parameters mean what they should, and you can't accidentally forget or skip some unless that's what you intended to do. Also, I think it would be better to name it Template:cel-gau-decl-noun-table.

CodeCat20:06, 20 April 2014


The formatting of this template is completely messed up - see for instance kaptito. Could it have been this edit that caused the problem?

Mr. Granger (talkcontribs)15:00, 19 April 2014

It's fixed now, thank you.

CodeCat15:06, 19 April 2014

Recent Romanian translations


Just want to give you a heads-up, since you wrote on Baican XXX's discussion page, that quite a few of his translations are incorrect. E.g. gândibil isn't attested in any Romanian dictionary and sânteți was never the correct spelling of sunteți. He has a long history of making up words and quite honestly I gave up trying to have a meaningful discussion with him a long time ago. I've blocked him from Romanian Wiktionary before and he has recently been blocked from Romanian Wikipedia for doing the same thing and then some. I'll try to keep up with his contributions, but he has a tendency of adding so much bulk that it gets hard to keep up with him. Happy Easter!

Robbie SWE (talk)17:26, 18 April 2014

You should probably raise this on the Beer Parlour.

CodeCat17:45, 18 April 2014

Thanks! I'll raise the question there.

Robbie SWE (talk)17:54, 18 April 2014

Slovenian in BabelBox

Hi, are you learning about the Slovenian language so that you could spruce up the Slovenian entries? Or are you using a dictionary?

Lo Ximiendo (talk)00:23, 16 April 2014

Both, yes. I can't fluently read Slovene, but I know enough keywords that I can read the official Slovene word list and figure out what the pronunciations and declensions are.

CodeCat00:26, 16 April 2014

So you wish to update your BabelBox to reflect your current activity of updating Slovene entries by adding sl-1 or something?

Lo Ximiendo (talk)00:36, 16 April 2014

I don't think I would qualify for that.

CodeCat00:37, 16 April 2014

You would. Just do it.

Anatoli (обсудить/вклад)01:08, 16 April 2014

WT:Babel says that level 1 is if you have some basic command of the language and make simple phrases. I couldn't even do that... I can't remember enough words.

CodeCat01:10, 16 April 2014

Please delete EMPTY "in simplified script‎"/"in traditional script‎" categories

Are you able to delete all EMPTY categories suffixed in "simplified script‎"/"in traditional script‎" in Category:cmn:List of topics, please? I will fix non-empty later and delete myself.

Anatoli (обсудить/вклад)03:37, 15 April 2014

My bot does not have administrator rights, so it can't delete pages. I'd have to delete them by hand.

CodeCat12:55, 15 April 2014

OK, thanks. I'll do it myself then.

Anatoli (обсудить/вклад)14:12, 15 April 2014


Why did you delete that page? Isn't Wiktionary supposed to enter things by symbol? I see entries in no-symbol articles for words with the symbols for Serbo-Croatian and Latin all over the place in Wiktionary. What is up with this??? LalalalaSta (talk) 03:13, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

LalalalaSta (talk)03:13, 15 April 2014

The normal practice is for entries to be on the page that represents the normal everyday spelling of the word. However, for some languages, dictionaries often include extra diacritics that are not normally part of the written form. For Serbo-Croatian, dictionaries include diacritics to indicate the type of accent, and for Latin it's to indicate long vowels. Because these are not normally written, we include them only in the displayed form of the word, not in the entry name itself. That's because most people will not be looking up the words with those diacritics, but rather without them. For example, someone will generally be looking up cano and not canō as the word is not written that way in normal texts.

CodeCat12:53, 15 April 2014

Thanks you. Eu încerc asta, dar sunt situații care datorită bi-valenței în utilizare, nu pot fi altfel rezonabil rezolvate. Mersi ptr. atențieǃ

BAICAN XXX (talk)03:46, 14 April 2014

Sorry, I don't speak any Romanian...

CodeCat12:53, 14 April 2014

You indicate that Template:nv-Latn was migrated to Module:scripts. How do I use Module:scripts to set a text in the correct script? I don’t know anything about Lua. —Stephen (Talk) 16:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

—Stephen (Talk)16:34, 13 April 2014

Use {{lang|nv|(text)}}.

CodeCat16:34, 13 April 2014

Hi CodeCat,

Concerning Appendix:Proto-Germanic/uppai. The Old Dutch dictionary in the WNT says: uppan, meaning "above", is derived from the adverb *uppa + an (I added the *; I assume it's unattested because it's not present in the WNT). See: [1]. I chose to insert the attested form (though less of a pure descendant, I admit) than the unattested one.

Morgengave (talk)08:57, 13 April 2014

It's probably better to put it at *ubanē. If you see the note in the descendants section you'll understand why.

CodeCat12:53, 13 April 2014

Username report

User account User:Fartfacebuttholerozga (talk / contribs) was recently created. I don't know if you have administrator rights, but I'm sure there are rules about usernames here, so where should I report this? LalalalaSta (talk) 18:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

LalalalaSta (talk)18:24, 12 April 2014

Generally, unless they are actually making bad edits, we usually ignore such accounts. As long as they aren't causing any harm, it's probably ok to leave them.

If you want to report vandalism, you can do that at WT:VIP.

CodeCat18:25, 12 April 2014

Really? I would be interested to see use of derp (to have eyes like that) pre-dating Derpy. I thought Derpy was so-called because of the slang for being stupid (unrelated to eyes), because the eyes make him/her look stupid... Equinox 17:53, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Equinox 17:53, 11 April 2014

I'm pretty sure that the term "derp" has been used in reference to that facial expression long before then.

CodeCat18:31, 11 April 2014

PGmc adverbs update

I have not been able to find a definitive source for the etymology of the ablative *-nV suffix, but apparently it could also appear in Sanskrit vinā, "without", and Latin supernē, "from above". The suffix could also apparently show up in Germanic *fanē, *hinē, *þanē, according to Kroonen. The former could be derived from PIE *h₂po-, a variant of *h₂epó, which would make it cognate to Latin po-.

If you find it acceptable, we could create the entries with the *-ē ending, with an explanation that the vowel is indeterminate and that that form is either the least problematic or least contested form. If not, then we could take up your earlier proposal to create the forms with the vowel left blank.

Anglom (talk)04:42, 8 April 2014

I found a paper recently that went a bit further into various Germanic words with an n-suffix, including these adverbs and prepositions. It's called "The Proto-Germanic N-stems - A Study", by Guus Kroonen.

CodeCat12:42, 8 April 2014

There is another paper available on titled "Consonant Gradation in the Proto-Germanic Iteratives" by Guus Kroonen as well, which I guess would be a shorter follow-up.

Anglom (talk)15:33, 8 April 2014

One thing I was wondering about. Should not Proto-Germanic *ana have lost the final vowel?

Is it possible that there were two originally distinct forms, *an(from earlier *ana) and, say, *anǭ or *anē?

Anglom (talk)02:58, 11 April 2014

Final -a is not preserved in any Germanic language that has a body of any decent size. It's only found in Proto-Norse runic inscriptions, and those attest only a few words.

CodeCat03:00, 11 April 2014

Sorry, I meant the preposition *ana.

Anglom (talk)03:03, 11 April 2014

Thanks for fixing up the stuff surrounding PIE -iHnos after I created it. I wasn't quite sure what just how to do all the bits. It looks much better now :)., 10 April 2014

Oops, that was me. Sorry.

TimNelson (talk)07:09, 10 April 2014

Hi CodeCat. Currently, when {{circumfix}} is used, it generates three links, one for the circumfixed antecedent term, and one each for the preceding and following parts of the circumfix; this results in links to pages that may be utterly irrelevant or even non-existent. Take the example of the Georgian word უბრალო (ubralo), in the entry for which {{circumfix|უ- -ო|უ|ბრალი|ო|lang=ka}} currently displays this:

*უ- (*u-) doesn't exist and -ო (-o) contains nothing relevant; both the links on either side of ბრალი (brali) should link to უ- -ო (u- -o). {{circumfix|უ- -ო|უ|ბრალი|ო|lang=ka}} should display this:

Unless I'm missing something, all that should be necessary is to pipe the links for the first and third terms, so that they link to the proper page, for the circumfix. Would you be able and willing to edit {{circumfix}} to correct this bug, please? Thanks for your time.

 — I.S.M.E.T.A.02:46, 31 March 2014

The template already has alt1= and alt3= parameters. What should be done with those?

CodeCat02:48, 31 March 2014

I don't suppose that's a problem, or is it? They just change what's displayed, rather than the link, right?

 — I.S.M.E.T.A.03:06, 31 March 2014

Currently, the template takes four main parameters: the circumfix itself, the first part, the middle word, and the second part. On top of that, it takes alt1, alt2 and alt3 parameters to override the display of each part. If I change the template so that it uses the first parameter to figure out what to link to, then the 2nd and 4th parameters only really change the display, and alt1 and alt3 parameters don't really have a distinct use anymore.

CodeCat03:11, 31 March 2014

Oh, I see. So, should we get rid of them? I suppose before we do, we'd need to fix any current uses of them. Is there a way to find out which entries, if any, use either or both of these alt1 and alt3 parameters?

 — I.S.M.E.T.A.03:16, 31 March 2014

What I'm more curious about is why there is that first parameter to begin with. It seems redundant to the 2nd and 4th, which could presumably be used to reconstruct the "whole" circumfix from its two parts.

But since this is a rather specific template that not many languages need, I can't really judge the merit of how it was made to work. Maybe you should ask at the GP, so that those who actually work with this template can explain.

CodeCat03:19, 31 March 2014
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