User talk:Conrad.Irwin

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I archive my talk page when it gets to ~75 topics by moving the first 50 to a new subpage. Please do not edit the archive pages, if you want to talk about something again - copy it back to my current talk page or just start a new topic there and link back.

[edit] use inline templates to avoid right hand heavy page

If they don't want us to use the templates, then delete them! WritersCramp 14:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I wish they would :D. Nah, the right hand ones are OK when you don't have an image, but if you have lots on the right-hand side the page looks wierd (to me anyway). It's not a big problem. Conrad.Irwin 16:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] That's odd

I encountered the word in a book I was reading ([1]), but I guess I should have checked the other results. Teh Rote 20:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Cool, it'd be worth adding that to the citations page so that we can find it again quickly. Conrad.Irwin 20:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Index:Mapudungun

Hey again. I was asking Atelaes back in january how to make a index and he mentioned a slow way of doing it and certain magical ways of creating one with the help of a great wizard called Conrad =). I have added alot of words since january and it would be fun to have an index, If you find the time to help me it would be awesome. -Edelstam 17:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey Conrad, been a while, thanks for updating the mapudungun index again. I can't get on the irc anymore because got this TOR program on my computer and I can't get it to work with some IRC servers. So I'll have to ask you here. I have been working some with trying to start up the mapudungun wikipedia and there they are working with some separate solutions for the different orthographies(what I mistakenly have called alphabets) within one wikipedia. I looked some at the serbian wikipedia where they use two different alphabets for example. I got some comments about the mapudungun language category here on english wiktionary, that it was confusing to have words from two different orthographies in one place. So I was thinking if we could possibly adopt some solutions the serbian language category has here. They have for example a index with the two different alphabets, look here. Since we only have words in two orthographies it would mean a similar solution to the one the serbian category uses. What do you think about this, is it alot of work? -Edelstam 20:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi Edelstam, the main problem is automatically telling the two apart. If there is some indication in the page text, or even a way of testing the page titles, that will tell me which alphabet which entry belongs to, then it shouldn't be that hard. I can obviously look for some letters that only appear in one of the alphabets, but I don't know enough about Mapudungun to know if I will always be able to tell the difference. Conrad.Irwin 20:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah I was thinking about how to separate the words since they don't look different like the Serbian Cyrillic- and Latin alphabet words. Right now all words written in the raguileo orthography have this in the article tho: (using Raguileo Alphabet), look at cew for example. Some words are the same in both orthographies and in those cases they look like this word: awka. Words written in Unified alphabet look like this: chafod. Can you use that for the bot? -Edelstam 20:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's enough. I'll try to change the indexing scrit at some point. Conrad.Irwin 08:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Something wrong with the entry "hypocrisy"

Hello. You are an admin here, could you please see what's wrong with this entry? Looks like it's caused by a recent change to template:attention which can be edited only by admins. 213.163.65.33 03:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Now fixed, thanks for noticing. Conrad.Irwin 10:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Layout/template ??

This diff raised a question for me: There's a direct link to en.wp, plus the wp template which links to a disambiguation page. What would be the appropriate layout/template use? I really don't know. - Amgine/talk 16:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Template:wotd

Would you be willing to look atthis convo? I wonder if you understand the wotd template better than anyone. Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Template:WOTD

Please don't remove the "Edit" link. I use that all the time. --EncycloPetey 21:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. I'd neglected to appreciate that it appears in other places. Do you use the link that appears on the Main Page, or exclusively where it appears elsewhere? Conrad.Irwin 22:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Wiktionary:Votes/2009-03/Transwikis from other Wiktionaries

Hi Conrad,

Since you commented at Wiktionary:Beer parlour#Transwikis from other Wiktionaries., I wanted to make sure you were aware of the resultant vote, Wiktionary:Votes/2009-03/Transwikis from other Wiktionaries.

—RuakhTALK 13:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] user redirect

I see you got rid of the #switch. I imagine it was in place so that people don't use this template to redirect to alternative spellings, misspellings, and the like: see template talk:user redirect. Did you remove it on purpose or en passant?—msh210℠ 22:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Deliberately, it seems that, if we are to have pages like WB:WB, they should use it as well. Conrad.Irwin 22:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I see no reason to keep WB:WB, and doubt there are other mainspace pages that are appropriate soft redirects, but perhaps there are. Very well.—msh210℠ 23:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to delete them, but I think someone told me not to (may have been a year or so ago, so might "just do it" now :D) Conrad.Irwin 23:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 639-3 templates

Are you being careful to use only the "I" individual languages? And skip the ones that we use the -1 code for? Robert Ullmann 09:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

So we are going to have thousands of unchecked templates? Are you checking everything you should? (You are not.) Likely to be more of a mess than a help. (Sorry.)
Would be good to stop until a list of issues is addressed.
What are you using as the source? Robert Ullmann 10:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I had not looked at the "I" flag - as I was using the "Language Names Index" from http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/download.asp - which I had assumed very likely to be correct (it is the definition after all) However there do seem to some discrepancies between what we have and what they say; mainly only spelling. I had thought about checking against Ethnologue (run by the same organisation) but it doesn't seem to have been updated fully with the 2009 changes. I could change to using the full code-set and ignore those 62. Conrad.Irwin 10:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
However current consensus seems to be to include them. See {{aka}} {{ara}} {{aym}} {{aze}} {{bal}} {{bik}} (I got bored of checking...) all macrolanguages done well before I started. Conrad.Irwin 11:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
  • aab Alumu-Tesu: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Arum-Tesu{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|aab]]</noinclude>
  • abe Western Abnaki: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Abenaki{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|abe]]</noinclude>
  • abk Abkhazian: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Abkhaz{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|abk]]</noinclude>
  • abl Lampung Nyo: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Abung{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|abl]]</noinclude>
  • ace Achinese: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Acehnese{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ace]]</noinclude>
  • ach Acoli: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Acholi{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ach]]</noinclude>
  • acm Mesopotamian Arabic: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Iraqi Arabic{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|acm]]</noinclude>
  • ady Adygei: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Adyghe{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ady]]</noinclude>
  • aht Ahtena: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Ahtna{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|aht]]</noinclude>
  • aib Ainu (China): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Aynu{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|aib]]</noinclude>
  • ain Ainu (Japan): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Ainu{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ain]]</noinclude>
  • ajg Aja (Benin): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Aja-Benin{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ajg]]</noinclude>
  • amu Guerrero Amuzgo: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Amuzgo{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|amu]]</noinclude>
  • anc Ngas: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Angas{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|anc]]</noinclude>
  • ang Old English (ca. 450-1100): Old English</nowiki>
  • apj Jicarilla Apache: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Jicarilla{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|apj]]</noinclude>
  • apk Kiowa Apache: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Plains Apache{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|apk]]</noinclude>
  • apl Lipan Apache: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Lipan{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|apl]]</noinclude>
  • apm Mescalero-Chiricahua Apache: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Chiricahua{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|apm]]</noinclude>
  • arc Imperial Aramaic (700-300 BCE): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Aramaic{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|arc]]</noinclude>
  • arc Official Aramaic (700-300 BCE): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Aramaic{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|arc]]</noinclude>
  • are Western Arrarnta: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Western Arrernte{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|are]]</noinclude>
  • arn Mapuche: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Mapudungun{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|arn]]</noinclude>
  • ast Asturleonese: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Asturian{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ast]]</noinclude>
  • ast Bable: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Asturian{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ast]]</noinclude>
  • ast Leonese: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Asturian{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ast]]</noinclude>
  • auq Korur: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Anus{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|auq]]</noinclude>
  • auy Awiyaana: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Auyana{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|auy]]</noinclude>
  • ava Avaric: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Avar{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|ava]]</noinclude>
  • awb Awa (Papua New Guinea): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Awa{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|awb]]</noinclude>
  • azb South Azerbaijani: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Azeri{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|azb]]</noinclude>
  • aze Azerbaijani: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Azeri{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|aze]]</noinclude>
  • bak Bashkir: Bashkir</nowiki>
  • bas Basa (Cameroon): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Basa{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bas]]</noinclude>
  • bav Vengo: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bavarian{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bav]]</noinclude>
  • bcl Central Bicolano: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bikol Central{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bcl]]</noinclude>
  • bej Bedawiyet: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Beja{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bej]]</noinclude>
  • bem Bemba (Zambia): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bemba{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bem]]</noinclude>
  • bez Bena (Tanzania): {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bena{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bez]]</noinclude>
  • bfe Tena: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Betaf{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bfe]]</noinclude>
  • bgc Haryanvi: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Haryanvi{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bgc]]
  • bgk Buxinhua: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bit{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bgk]]</noinclude>
  • bin Edo: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bini{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bin]]</noinclude>
  • bjn Banjar: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Banjarese{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bjn]]</noinclude>
  • bla Siksika: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Blackfoot{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bla]]</noinclude>
  • bno Bantoanon: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Asi{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bno]]</noinclude>
  • bnv Bonerif: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Beneraf{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bnv]]</noinclude>
  • bnv Edwas: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Beneraf{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>[[Category:Language templates|bnv]]</noinclude>
  • bot Bongo: {{{l|[}}}{{{l|[}}}Bongo{{{l|]]}}}<noinclude>
There is no "consensus" to include maccrolanguages: they were wrongly created and must be deleted; we want templates for precisely the set of languages we want to use as L2 headers. In some specific cases we do want to use a macrolanguage code where it is better to treat the I languages as dialects (or in some combination). This requires looking at individual cases, with some knowledge of the language(s); this is why we want to create codes only as needed.
I'm afraid you are creating a massive raft of problems to add to the (fairly reasonable) number we already have. IMHO, it would be better to delete all code templates for languages not referenced anywhere at this time. We do carefully allow new contributors to add L2 headers and translations lines w/o having to have code templates, which can the be sorted with care. Robert Ullmann 11:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree there are difficulties with language templates, but which problems am I actually causing? It is just as easy, if not easier, to correct a template that is found to be wrong than for someone to lookup the language code for a language they are trying to add; and there will be (far?) fewer mistakes to correct than there are templates to create. Conrad.Irwin 12:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] primitive recursion‎

It is "recursion with a fixed iteration limit". SemperBlotto 16:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I went for "to a fixed depth" as, in my mind anyway, iteration is orthogonal to recursion. Conrad.Irwin 16:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] I'm just Jesse again...

Hi Conrad -- it's just User:JesseW/not logged in again. Thanks for the welcome, anyway! 75.214.226.186 18:04, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 404

Oops, I guess you're right. The full text of the response's Status-Line is exactly “HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found”, consisting of HTTP-Version, Status-Code and Reason-Phrase. I'll adjust the phrasing. —Michael Z. 2009-04-11 22:56 z

[edit] upbeat

I checked http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/upbeat

Are there upbeats, downbeats and somethign else? Or are there just upbeats and downbeats? RJFJR 15:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Just up and down, w:Beat_(music)#Downbeat is more how I understand the words. Conrad.Irwin 16:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] new changes

OK, thank you for warnig. I'll keep that in my mind =) best wishes, Sinek 16:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Translation-thing confusion.

Hi Conrad,

I tried to add a translation using the translation-thing, and it didn't work out. I filled out the form, and then I didn't see any way to save. So, I figured I'd continue playing around, and I clicked one of the arrows, and suddenly I got a save-button, which I clicked. But then I understood that all it was doing was saving the re-balancing, and suddenly it occurred to me to click the preview-button. But it was too late: a message came back that saving was complete, and I lost the save button. And as far as I could tell, there was no longer any way for me to recover what I'd entered; I'd have to redo it.

Also, since the preview-button clears out the form, and the undo-button doesn't restore it, there doesn't seem to be a way to fix a typo, to add a qualifier, etc. after clicking the preview-button, except by re-entering everything. (Admittedly, that wouldn't be a big deal if I had a Hebrew keyboard, but I don't, so it takes me a bit of effort to enter Hebrew text. I found it disheartening when my translation just disappeared into the ether.)

—RuakhTALK 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, it is necessary to click "Preview" before save, whether this is desirable is questionable, but I think generally it is; as typos are harder to spot when they are not in-situ. Maybe I need to make it clearer that "Preview" is the first step, but how to do that I'm not sure. (We should really organise some training for using Wiktionary...). I debated about making the "Undo" button re-fill-out the form, but wasn't sure whether that would be very usual either, as if people want something undone the last thing they want is it to come back and get in their way. The main problem is neither of those though, it needs to hold onto previous edits while saving, which I think I can fix. Conrad.Irwin 18:08, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree requiring Preview before Save is desirable, for the reason you say. (Perhaps the usual method of saving a page should also require it!  :-P ) But I agree with Ruakh that undoing should prefill, for the reason he says.—msh210℠ 18:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
The “Add” label on the fields implies that using the fields performs the action. Might be clearer if it said “New”, or was removed altogether, and the action word were restricted to the button which performs the action. “Preview” is a bit confusing, because although that button does incidentally change mode to previewing the first time it's clicked, the editor only sees it add a translation every time it's clicked. —Michael Z. 2009-04-14 20:51 z

[edit] frazil

I was wondering why you so severely pruned this entry in this edit when you formatted the definition line? I could possibly see removing the hypernym entry as being covered by the definition, but not the rest of the pruning, and in any case, pruning of that extent would seem to warrant a more substantive comment than "fmt". — Carolina wren discussió 14:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I made this change. It seems to have overwritten yours, I thought it was supposed to give warnings of conflict in such cases, but don't remember getting one. Sorry. Conrad.Irwin 16:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
No problem, just odd given that my edit had been made several hours earlier. — Carolina wren discussió 18:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] thank you

Thanks for your warm welcome. Your boxes are a very useful tool for adding translations! --Hooiwind 17:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I am thanking you as well, Conrad.Irwin! The script for translations makes things faster. --Icqgirl 11:16, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] new button for translations

The new button for adding translations is not working right for me: it responds only with "Please use a language code" but I do use a language code! However, I gather from the above message by Hooiwind that the tool is working all right for him. What is wrong? —AugPi 18:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It appears that it has stopped working under Internet Explorer since I tested it. I am investigating now, and hope to have it fixed in the next few minutes. Conrad.Irwin 18:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

Something is amiss. Currently, none of the Translations sections are collapsed for me, and there is no option to Show/Hide. The Related terms boxes are also affected. --EncycloPetey 20:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I can't see this in Firefox, Safari, Opera, IE6, IE7, Chrome or even Konqueror. What are you using? Did a hard re-fresh do anything about it? Conrad.Irwin 21:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm using Safari, but the problem has (mostly) gone away now. The problem is now intermittent, and goes away if I empty the cache, then refresh the page. However, I have to do this again when I go back to the page again later. I'm also seeing an extra bullet point for a non-existent translation at the end of translation lists. --EncycloPetey 21:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, caused by me trying to fix the IE issues too quickly. Now fixed. Conrad.Irwin 21:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese and assisted translations

Hi,

I like your assisted translator. Well done! I don't use for Chinese entries, though because it doesn't allow traditional/simplified distinction. The other thing, I use Chinese, as the title, not Mandarin, which is the Standard Chinese dialect, anyway. By default, the entry is in written Chinese, shared by all dialects with some exception. The Mandarin's pinyin is also standard for China. Dialects could be separated by *: notation (Cantonese, Minnanhua, etc.


I created two templates recently:

If this is possible, could you add the functionality for the Chinese translations, so that:

Anatoli 03:57, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Not in the near future, sorry. I was thinking of adding a field to the "More" view that allowed you to enter the entire line, so you could type "Chinese: {{zh-zh-p|...}}", it's not ideal but I think it might be helpful for some people. Supporting nested translations, for Chinese and Greek, is also on the todo list, but I need to have a chat with Ullmann about which languages are nested and under what circumstances. Conrad.Irwin 09:29, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Anatoli 09:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Latin index

After a year, I think it's time to re-run Index:Latin. There are many, many new entries, and many previously indexed entries have been removed as errors (especially those beginning with J and K). --EncycloPetey 19:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll try to get round to it tomorrow, I'll also update the formatting to match the other indices generated by Conrad.Bot (unless you have a strong objection thereto). Conrad.Irwin 23:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
No objections, no. I don't use them all that much myself (except for cleanup purposes), but I know other people do make use of them. --EncycloPetey 04:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] language templates

WHAT THE FUCK were you doing?

You sure as hell didn't check the results. I don't even know how to make the server store pages with no revisions, but whatever broken, fucked-up thing you did managed.

I am cleaning them up, one by one by page ID. It is 5 AM, I've been chasing this problem for several hours, and it looks like half a fucking day of manual cleanup. Thanks a lot.

Why ever didn't you at least READ the resulting templates with something? You would have found a problem? Eh? Robert Ullmann 01:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I did manually unmangle every pageID I could find so far, but someone is going to have to re-check all this crap. Robert Ullmann 02:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I will apologize for all the invective above. (:-) but I ask one thing: can you please learn why it is not a good idea to just blast through things? Adding all these required (and requires) checking all the work. Did you write a program to read all the templates and check them all? Or just write them and hope? ... best regards, Robert

The pages you have deleted, along with six others, threw an error on save. I made the, incorrect it would seem, assumption that an error on page save was equivalent to not saving. As it wasn't important to be utterly complete, I just logged "Error" and carried on. I can't vouch for the fact that all the others are fine, but given that everything you deleted logged an error I am confident enough that the others are not in this state. There is also a query running now on toolserver to find all pages with no revisions, just in case this problem has gone unnoticed elsewhere. (The people in #mediawiki seemed reluctant to admit that doing this was possible, and so now give the "recommended fix" as deleting the page...). Thank you for your help and time. Conrad.Irwin 09:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
SELECT page_title FROM page LEFT JOIN revision ON rev_page = page_id WHERE rev_id IS NULL;
Empty set (52 min 47.11 sec)

Hi! the dump has run (unassisted, and okay ;-), so I did get all of them (from this case). I'm very curious how this managed to happen (and not very surprised that "they" would think it "impossible", it ought to be ;-)? How exactly did you do the "save"? (which code, index or api.php? etc?) And what was the error? (as far as you know). I'd like to see if I can maybe make it happen, and we can fix the underlying bug. Now that I've had some good sleep. Robert Ullmann 13:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I (foolishly) didn't record the actual error, I'm using mwclient, page = wikt.Pages['Template:%s' % code]; text = page.edit(); try: page.save(newtext) except: print "Error: %s %s" % (code, name). I can't really see anything in common with the edits, though there's clearly two main patches of problems, so I wonder whether it was something like database lag and a buggy anti-overload tool getting in the way. Conrad.Irwin 13:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
page.save(text=newtext) (presumably?) can I see the actual code (you can email it if you don't want it floating about ;-). I'd like to set up the exact case, and then look at how it would trace through api.php. (but sleeping now I think) Robert Ullmann 22:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
User:Conrad.Bot/iso-upload.py is it I think, I made a few modifications for testing after you reported the problem, but I think I undid them. Conrad.Irwin 22:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't look like anything odd on that side. Presumably I would have to hunt something in/under api.php that would cause an incomplete DB commit. (and I'm not doing that at 2AM ;-) thanks, Robert Ullmann 22:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] обитѣль

Hello. I noticed that you reverted my self-revert on this entry. I initially entered a reference for its etymon under a "Notes"-thread (see the history of the entry) exactly as is done in Wikipedia. Then, the bot moved the "Notes"-thread on the top of the wikicode and it created a cite-error ("<ref> tags exist, but no <references/> tag was found"). The truth is that I don't know how to properly make a citation on Wiktionary yet, so I reverted myself (my rationale was that if the reference doesn't show up, there's no point having it in the code). But since you reverted me, the cite-error is back. Do you have a better idea on how to undo it while at the same time make the entry conform with the formatting standards of Wiktionary concerning citations? --Omnipaedista 18:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

If not, I will probably remove the citation. But, I would really like to know your opinion first. --Omnipaedista 07:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, sorry for not replying, isn't Atelaes fix correct? I just reverted you because it looked like you wre removing random stuff, sorry. Conrad.Irwin 08:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
OK, no problem at all. I hadn't noticed Atelaes' intervention. The entry's fine now. --Omnipaedista 18:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes by language?

Hello. Do you have here Recent Changes by language? Maybe only showing when a French entry is modified? --Rising Sun 13:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Visviva used to maintain lists at http://www.pnuteachers.com/wiktionary/, but they seem to have been turned off for the last week or so (and I've not seen Visviva around recently either). Conrad.Irwin 13:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Russian and Armenian indexes

Hi. Great work on making those indexes. However, here are some points:

1. By sorting Russian е and ё together, here is what I meant: your bot should temporarily replace every ё in the dump by е, sort such list as if ё did not even exist, than add ё-s back to the sorted list. This is the convention used in Russian dictionaries. Thus, these 5 words will be sorted like this:

Елисей, ёлка, еловый, ель, Ельцин

instead of

Елисей, еловый, ель, Ельцин, ёлка

as it is now.

Sorry, my fault - I have two normalization routines (one for the letters used as headings and page titles, the other for sorting) and I only fixed one of them. (will fix now) Conrad.Irwin 00:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Fixed. Conrad.Irwin 01:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

2. The sorting of Armenian according to Unicode corresponds to old Armenian conventions in two points. First, is it possible to treat ու as a single, separate letter, and add words starting with it to Index:Armenian/ու? Right now they go under Index:Armenian/ո. And, whenever it's found in the middle of the word, it should be treated as the 34th in order, coming after ց and before փ in Index:Armenian, and not as a combination of ո + ւ. Besides, the letter և is treated by Unicode as the 6th in order, when it should be 37th - after ք and before օ. If you can't make this changes, no problem, old convention indexes are better than empty indexes.

This should be possible, I'll have a go over the weekend. Conrad.Irwin 00:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Now done, I think, but I find it quite hard to read the script, so I might have got it horribly wrong. Conrad.Irwin 01:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

3. What happens if the translations or entries, from which the indexes were generated, are moved, changed or deleted? Will your bot automatically update the indexes? --Vahagn Petrosyan 22:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I run the script every fortnight or so - it takes about an hour to download the xml dumps process them and re-upload the indices. Conrad.Irwin 00:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that you'd been cleaning out the /0 pages, and have reverted the bots overwrite of you. Next time it runs, it should see the fixes you have made to the pages and not re-create the mess. Conrad.Irwin 01:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

4. Just wanted to let you know that in Opera there is a minor indention problem in all indexes. See this screenshot for example. --Vahagn Petrosyan 22:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

There's always one :D, I'll see if I can work out what's causing this, and then see if I can fix it for opera without breaking everyone else. (I suspect it's something property of the headings) Conrad.Irwin 00:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Awesome, you got it all right! Two, teeny-tiny things. If I move the remnants belonging to Index:Armenian/ու from Index:Armenian/ո to Index:Armenian/ու (just 3 articles at the bottom linking to the letter itself), will the bot overwrite me next time? Also, if I put a text like "Transliteration: č" at the top of each index page, will the bot overwrite me next time? --Vahagn Petrosyan 01:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it will. I can fix those "ու", not sure what to do with transliteration - I suppose if you pointed me to a list and showed me how you wanted it to be formatted, I could get Conrad.Bot to add it (it would then be easy to add for Russian too) - but it would not be trivial to change the code not to overwrite everything. Conrad.Irwin 07:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Thinking about it, I could add a trans= parameter to the {{index/Armenian}} call, which should then allow you to format it however. I'm intending on stealing the top list from Appendix:Armenian script. Conrad.Irwin 07:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Inflection table

I just subst'd the template, from merge and replaced the second person singular. - Francis Tyers 10:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. I'll fix the template. Conrad.Irwin 10:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Assisted translations problem

As you can see in this edit, the assisted translations feature does not recognize or warn about edits made between the time the page is opened and the time an edit is saved, resulting in a loss of content/edits. See the edit history around that edit for a clearer picture. --EncycloPetey 04:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I am working on the fix for this. Conrad.Irwin 08:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] szülők - parents

This word is the plural of szülő (parent) and has the "plural of" template in its definition line - it is still listed in the index. Not urgent, but when you have a chance, would you please take a look at it. And thanks again for regularly updating the index! --Panda10 22:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

It is linked to as a translation of parents. Fixing this is likely to take some time, as I had assumed that translations go only to the lemma form. Conrad.Irwin 00:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
What do you think about creating a template such as {noindex} that would be added to entries the editors don't want to include in the index? Your code would check for this template. --Panda10 02:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, it sounds like a reasonable idea - and a similar template for including irregular form-ofs in the index might be nice, but a better name than {{NOINDEX}} which is already used to stop search-engine indexing of pages is needed. Perhaps {{doIndex}} and {{dontIndex}}? Conrad.Irwin 13:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
It sounds good. --Panda10 19:06, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Weird language codes

Hi ConnelCirwin. I've been improving my metadata server.

I want to build the master data from all the master sources automatically and periodically.

So I'm reading the master list of wiktionaries and the master list of ISO language codes and I've found these Wiktionaries which are not ISO codes:

  • tokipona: A constructed language with no ISO code
  • roa_rup: Aromanian, so why not the standard code rup?
  • mo: Moldovan/Moldavian, to be deprecated in favour of combining with Romanian ro
  • zh_min_nan: Some long-running dispute about the correct language code I think
  • als: Tosk Albanian, its a code on Ethnologue but not in ISO, need to know more
  • simple: Simple English, not a separate language
  • sh: Serbo-Croatian, deprecated by ISO

So how should we handle such cases? I haven't yet included the English Wiktionary's Template namespace titles which are 2 or 3 letters or which are members of the language code category. There may be further anomolies there. — hippietrail 08:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

For Serbo-Croatian read Wiktionary:About Serbo-Croatian (and see the discussion site providing justification), we had already been discussing this in the BP some five or six weeks ago and this is the outcome. I found the link - the discussion is here, but to-day it was archived, so one can no longer partake thereof. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 08:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I do not wan to be inquisitive, but wherefore „Hi Connel“ on Conrad's talk page? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 08:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
See Wiktionary:Language code extensions; most of these are stupidity by the WM "language committee" which seems to be terminally clueless. (they denied Jerrais a WP because it "had not code", then allowed Norman, and give it the code for Narom (nrm). fortunately no wikt yet) Specifically:
  • tokipona: we ignore, as with tlh (Klingon)
  • roa_rup: standard code didn't exist at the time, should get changed
  • mo: thus was/is a standard code, we can sort it when mo.wikt is closed/merged
  • zh_min_nan: was supposed to be temporary, invented by IETF/IANA, not us should become nan (also zh-yue, the same, but has no wikt)
  • als: Tosk Albanian; but used for "Alsatian", which does need an extension code, this is committee stupidity. however, they also decided to put the dictionary inside the pedia (Wort: namespace), so we just ignore it ...
  • simple: should have been en-simple, but harmless
  • sh: sh.wikt is basically dead but not closed yet, sr, hr, bs etc wikts are alive and well; eventually the Serbian will all be identified as such (as well as what is Bosnian and Croation) and the extraordinarily offensive Serbian Nationalist "Serbo-Croatian" crap will be removed
We've done a reasonable job of sorting these so far. Robert Ullmann 08:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Actually there is a context my question. I'm making a tool to serve metadata about languages, designed to be used by other tools such as cirwin's editor.js so that they know whether to include gender fields, use script templates, need transliterations, provide interwiki links, etc. So I want to know whether and how to support things we use here but the standards don't.
  • As for "extraordinarily offensive crap", some places are lucky. ISO allows Tibet no region code and tow's the government line on calling Burmese "Myanmar". I'm sure there's plenty more to be enraged about but all of that is besides the point and off topic.
  • So how should we handle old Cyrillic Romanian/Moldovan/Moldavian spellings? I guess just Cyrl is fine but ro-Cyrl or does MD belong in there somewhere? — hippietrail 08:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, I am still called Conrad :p. Secondly, I've taken a completely pragmatic approach to this; although the situation on-wikt is not ideal, I've just copied it - doing anything else really isn't useful for what editor.js does. For a more generic meta-data thingy, I suppose it would be silly to copy wiktionary; so how you handle that I'm not really sure - probably with multiple "override" sets that can be used in place of the true values when a different "context" is requested by the client. The main problem I am coming across currently is that our Template:zh returns "Mandarin" (the name of the Wiktionary) and not "Chinese" (the name of the language) - but I don't know enough about the issues to deal with it. Conrad.Irwin 09:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh, ignore me, someone has already fixed it. Conrad.Irwin 09:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
So do you need data for the languages codes which we have language templates for including nonstandard templates and all the language codes which have Wiktionaries whether or not those codes are standard or whether or not we use those codes on enwikt? I suppose I should include fields for "in iso", "in wikimedia" and "wiktionary template".
Which means the only real problems are where one of these three uses a different code to one of the others, or when any two of them use the same code for different languages. And this does seem to be the case for a few where ISO uses one code and either wikimedia or enwikt or both use a different code. — hippietrail 09:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
  • (@Robert Ullmann) Serbian Nationalist "Serbo-Croatian" crap - the policy guideline is proposed by Ivan, who is an administrator of Croatian origin. I suggest you discuss this with him, but this policy (about Serbo-Croatian) is not going to be rescinded without a community consensus. Furthermore, it is completely futile to squander resources on three dialects elevated to the state of languages, when with the help of the SC header this is succinct and concise. And Bosnian and Serbian wiktionaries are no more alive than Serbo-Croatian, see the BP discussion for that, where evidence was presented. A veritable example for nationalist crap is the this article about the Montenegrin dialect. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 09:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems discovery of valid Wiktionary language codes is not straightforward. We reserve all 2- and 3- letter all lowercase ASCII alphabetical template names as Language templates which resolve to the name of the language. This works for language codes of the form xx and xxx. So all can be discovered by searching the Template namespace.

But as far as I can see we don't reserve hyphenated language codes and we don't restrict membership of Category:Language templates either. If I search for all templates in the category beginning with two lowercase letters I get these results which are not in ISO 639-3:

  • aoq: Ammonite -- no ISO 639-3 code. nothing in Ethnologue.
  • ast-leo: Leonese -- ast is Asturian. Ethnologue says Leonese is a dialect of Asturian. code leo must be unofficial.
  • bat-smg: Samogitian -- Ethnologue says its a dialect of Lithuanian which is lt or lit. ISO 639-3 has no code bat.
  • be-x-old: Belarusian (Tarashkevitsa) -- nothing in Ethnologue.
  • bh: Bihari -- has a Wiktionary, seems to have progressed from being a singular code to a collective code to being removed.
  • cbk-zam: Zamboanga Chavacano -- cbk is Chavacano. Ethnologue says Zamboanga is a dialect. code zam must be unofficial
  • el-it: Salentine Greek -- nothing on Ethnologue.
  • eml-rom: Romagnolo -- Ethnologue says eml is for Emiliano-Romagnolo.
  • fiu-vro: Võro (already discussed, should be moved to vro)
  • fr-ca: Canadian French (nominated for deletion)
  • fr-nng: Guernésiais -- Ethnologue counts it as a dialect of Fench. code nng must be unofficial
  • fr-nnj: Jèrriais -- Ethnologue counts it as a dialect of Fench. code nng must be unofficial
  • fr-nnx: Norman -- Ethnologue counts it as a dialect of Fench. code nng must be unofficial
  • map-bms: Banyumasan. ISO counts it as a dialect of Javanese jv. code map doesn't exist in ISO 639-3
  • mo: Moldavian -- has a Wiktionary. now covered by Romanian ro
  • mol: Moldavian -- see above
  • nah: Nahuatl -- has a Wiktionary. was an ISO 639-2 code but is not an ISO 639-3 code. There are many codes for Nahuatl languages/dialects
  • nap-cal: Calabrese -- Ethnologue says nap is for Napoletano-Calabrese.
  • nds-nl: Dutch Low Saxon --
  • no-rik: Norwegian Riksmål -- historic predecessor of Bokmål but seems to have no language code of its own.
  • roa-rup: Aromanian (has a Wiktionary, already discussed)
  • sfk: Safwa -- seems to be an erroneous dupe of sbk.
  • simple: Simple English (has a Wiktionary, already discussed)
  • sr-mon: Montenegrin -- code mon must be unofficial
  • suh: Suba -- Ethnologue gives suh for Suba but ISO 639-3 gives sxb. Ethnologue does not list sxb at all.
  • szk: Sizaki -- Ethnologue says Sizaki has ISO 639-3 code szk but ISO 639-3 has no such code.
  • tokipona: Toki Pona (has a Wiktionary, already discussed)
  • twf-pic: Picuris. Ethnologue says Picuris is a dialect of Tiwa. code pic must be unofficial.
  • wwg: Woiwurrung -- seems to be an Australian language without a code. wwg is not in Ethnologue or ISO 639-3, nor is the spelling Woiwurrung anywhere in Ethnologue, perhaps there is another spelling?
  • zh-classical: Old Chinese
  • zh-cn: Simplified Chinese
  • zh-min-nan: Min Nan -- has a Wiktionary
  • zh-tw: Traditional Chinese
  • zh-yue: Cantonese
  • zkm: Maikoti -- Ethnologue says this code has been retired and code kjl for Western Parbate must be used instead.

I'll try to look into each of these a little further. — hippietrail 09:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] [2]

Could you check my request here? 50 Xylophone Players talk 07:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I just added support for the pl2 and dim2 parameters in {{nl-noun}}, was this what you wanted - I wasn't certain from the context. Conrad.Irwin 13:23, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, but for some reason I can't seem to get an alt diminutive to apppear in my sandbox. 50 Xylophone Players talk 11:02, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
nvm, I figured it out. 50 Xylophone Players talk 11:03, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] WT:WL

"When you approve someone, don't forget to go to Special:UserRights and mark them as autopatroller." Oh, is it enough for one person to support the vote? I was regarding it as something like an admin vote, where a decision was made after several people had contributed viewpoints. Equinox ◑ 23:35, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] P and NP

Do you think they are proper nouns? I do. Equinox ◑ 13:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

In that they refer to one specific entity I suppose so. Conrad.Irwin 14:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] {{hu-infinitive of}}

Would you please take a look at this template? There is an if statement that should put infinitive forms in Category:Hungarian infinitive forms and main infinitives in Category:Hungarian infinitives, but it puts everything in the latter category. I use the {{hu-ni}} switch to determine the category, but it doesn't work. Thank you. --Panda10 12:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I replaced if with ifeq, it seems to work now. Thanks. --Panda10 13:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] stubble

I can see only examples of plural for the second meaning. Perhaps it's worth noting in the entry. --Derbeth talk 10:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Are you stalking me...

or just having a lend?

I can't see what is wrong with putting a link to a transcription of a text of a war diary in with the citation on "Cornstalk"? "Tommy Cornstalk" is certainly not a dictionary.

As for your RfV on the slang meaning of "bosky", if you had an olive complexion (like me) and been around factories, farms and football training areas in Australia in the 50s, 60s, and 70s (like me) you would have heard the word used to refer to you generically if they didn't know your name. "Hey, bosky" would be used to attract your attention just as if you had fair or blond hair you would be called "snowy" or "snow" or red hair "bluey" or "blue". It is is likely that most of these usages have not found their way into even a slang dictionary. The usage I have got for the word comes from a novel. I have to track it down on my bookshelves.

Please leave me alone.

Is there a guide on how to use the citations page somewhere?Albatross2147 02:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is one: WT:CITE. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 07:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I was not stalking you in particular, just looking at Special:RecentChanges in order to find contributions that needed improvement (see meta:Help:Patrolled edit for more information). I had a brief look on http://books.google.com, and http://groups.google.com and could find no written evidence to support what you were saying at bosky (which is needed by WT:CFI). You are right there is nothing wrong with the citation you added, but there is also nothing useful about it; which is why I linked you to the Help page and did not remove it from the entry. Conrad.Irwin 08:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I understand but Googlebooks is far from exhaustive. The usage of "bosky" I put in is almost certainly archaic and may only have been used in a region ie. inland NSW and Queensland. I am going to try to find the book I saw the usage in. Why isn't a link to a book's online transcript useful? Albatross2147 03:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
I read the guide and am not much wiser I fear. I shall have a play around. Albatross2147 03:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi, sorry, I'm not great at explaining things. Essentially the quotations you added were "mentions" of the word, they did not show it being used, they showed it being discussed. We generally only accept the former for WT:CFI (though whether it is documented well, I don't know); while there is no harm in adding quotes that show the word being discussed, they don't show the reader (of Wiktionary) how the word is used. Conrad.Irwin 08:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Index:Spanish

Dear Conrad, the Spanish Index generated by your bot code contains quite some verb forms, which have not been detected as such. These are mainly the words ending in "ríais" and "rían". As all Spanish words with these endings are verb forms you could maybe consider to detect them and exclude them from the index, which should be IMHO easy to implement into the code. Matthias Buchmeier 09:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I'll try to up date it before the next run. (Seems to me that I just need to exclude definitions containing "(first|second)-person singular of" in addition to all the current rules that only match if the definition contains "form of"?) Conrad.Irwin 09:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Simple English Wiktionary request

Hello! We've really been enjoying your script over at se:wikt. I have a small request, however. Do you think you could make it so that it shows green links for template:irrnoun? Thank you! Tygrrr 17:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I've done that. It creates the forms using the {{simple:noun}} template, as that is what I saw done elsewhere. Conrad.Irwin 19:16, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with accelerated gl-adj

Conrad, I've noticed that the masculine plural is not properly accelerated for this template. The feminine singular and plural both work fine, but the masculine plural is generated as a feminine entry for some reason. I can't figure out why (in part because the coding is a bit beyond me). --EncycloPetey 03:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Now fixed, though the masculine singular doesn't seem to accelerate for me. Conrad.Irwin 08:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
It shouldn't need to, since the masculine singular is the lemma form. --EncycloPetey 04:36, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Wiktionary:Requests for deletion#semisweet_chocolate

Would you mind having a {{look}} at this discussion and seeing what you think?—msh210℠ 21:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

Hi there, it's w:User:Hangfromthefloor from #mediawiki on irc.freenode.net from Friday evening. I'm extremely grateful for your help, and even though your solution didn't work perfectly in the end, I appreciate all the effort you made trying to make it work. So, thanks once again! Hangfromthefloor 02:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Galician index

I've added more than 1200 words in the past few months (which more than doubles the number of raw entries we had (not counting "Translation section entries" in the Index). It's probably time to re-run this. Reminder: alphabetization is the same as for Spanish. --EncycloPetey 16:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I can do this when I get back to my computer. It was last run on the 27th of May, and I had intended to do it on Saturday, but forgot. Conrad.Irwin 16:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
On an unrelated issue: Do you know why the server is acting so sluggish today? I'm trying to add Galician verb forms via bot, and all I get is "Pausing 5 seconds due to database server lag." over and over. ...and I can't recall the (UNIX) code to stop a running process. --EncycloPetey 16:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Not sure, maybe they are doing the work to get the new search engine installed on Wiktionary too (well, I can dream :D). Conrad.Irwin 17:10, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
(Oh, and CTRL+C should halt it, if not use CTRL+Z to send it to the background and then ps ax and kill to get rid of it). Conrad.Irwin 17:11, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Are you ready (and willing) to branch out into other Romance languages? This would be relatively easy, since they all use Latin-based alphabets. If so, I can work up details (if you need them) for alphabetizing Romanian, Catalan, Portuguese, and French. All of these are major languages that are well-represented on Wktionary, but which have old Index pages in dire need of updating. Starting an Index for Asturian, Neapolitan, Sicilian, and Occitan could also be useful, although each of those would be less likely to need updating, as people seldom contribute in those languages. --EncycloPetey 19:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, certainly, most of what has been holding me off has been that some of the indexes for these languages already contain lists of red-links, but I can always do the same as for Index:Russian and move them somewhere (i.e. Wiktionary:Requested Entries:<Language>/<letter>). Conrad.Irwin 11:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Catalan: Vowels may have an acute accent (only É é, Í í, Ó ó, Ú ú), a grave accent (only À à, È è, Ò ò), or a diaresis (only ï and ü, and I don't think this occurs over capital letters). I'm uncertain, but I believe indexing order is in the sequence: unmarked, acute, grave, diaresis. This sequence applies for ordering in the event of a "tie" (otherwise identical spelling), but the marked vowels are considered equivalent with the unmarked vowels otherwise, so words beginning with A and Á are intermingled. The only consonant oddities I know of are the c-cedilla (Ç ç), which comes right after C/c, and the ela geminada, which is used to distinguish two "L"s from a double "LL" (as in anul·lar). I do not know whether the double "LL" (without ela geminada) is indexed as a separate letter, or not. User:Carolina wren should be able to confirm or amend this information. --EncycloPetey 15:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
This comes from the IEC's grammar:
First sort criteria is indeed with all accents (cedilla and the middle dot of the ela geminada in addition to the diaeresis, acute, and grave) ignored. Hyphens are also ignored unless what follows the hyphen is captalised, in which case it is treated as two separate words.
Second sort criteria is the position of an accent. The later the accent occurs in the word, the earlier it sorts.
Third sort criteria is which accent. Grave comes last, but I believe the relative order of diaresis is a moot point, as I don't believe there are any words in Catalan where a diaresis contrasts with acute or grave. In any case the IEC grammar merely asserts that grave comes after acute.
Examples
  1. forca < força < forcall
  2. cella < cel·la < cellut
  3. suplica < suplicà < súplica (no accents < grave on 7th letter < acute on 2nd letter)
  4. sénia < sènia ( acute on same letter < grave on same letter )
  5. beneit < beneït
  6. mallar < mà-llarg < mànec (sorted as mallar < mallarg < manec )
Finally there are three sanctioned methods of sorting multi-word phrases, with apostrophes ignored in all three.
  1. Word by word
    mà < mà a mà < mà d’obra < mà d’urpa < mà de morter < mà invisible < mà morta < maça
  2. Word by word, ignoring prepositions and articles
    mà < mà invisible < mà a mà < mà morta < mà de morter < mà d’obra < mà d’urpa < maça
  3. All smashed together
    mà < mà a mà < maça < mà de morter < mà d’obra < mà d’urpa < mà invisible < mà morta
Other than the second method would be a lot of effort to get a bot to do, no comment as to which would be "best". — Carolina wren discussió 20:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
French: Ther are a number of accented or modified characters, but none of them are considered separate letters. They are all indexed along with the same chaacter unmarked. For consonants, there is the c-cedilla (Ç ç). Vowels may have an acute accent (É é only), a grave accent (À à, È è, Où, où), a circumflex ( â, Ê ê, Î î, Ô ô, Û û), or a diaresis (Ë ë, Ü ü). I believe the order I've given is that used for breaking spelling "ties", but I do not know French well enough to be certain. User:Lmaltier could probably tell you. There is also an uncommon digraph Œ /œ, and I'm not certain but I believe it is indexed as if it were Oe / oe. --EncycloPetey 17:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
For French, I think that EncycloPetey is right. But you should add ÿ (used in a few proper nouns) and ï (used in many words, e.g. naïf). Also: ä (used in länder), ñ (used in cañon). Other foreign words with diacritics are sometimes used with their original spelling, but this is not a general use. Lmaltier 18:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not certain, but I believe that French also considers where the accent is to be more important than which accent when it comes to sorting. — Carolina wren discussió 20:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
There needs to be provision for the sorting of expressions starting with preposition + article, such as à l'abandon and variable preposition: should stuff starting in aux (aux abris) and du go after auvergnat and dryade of after à and de? Where should d'abord be sorted?. I've been whiling away time with a mock up and am struggling with this. Circeus 17:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
What to do with compound vs. uncompounds? (IMHO the ideal sensible option is to list them next to each others no matter how we deal with hyphenation in general) cf. abri sous roche vs. abri-sous-roche (the later is the one listed in dictonaries because of the French typograpic definition of an entry, but appears much, much rarer than its hyphenated counterpart), antiaérien vs. anti-aérien... Circeus 18:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Portuguese: Vowels may have an acute accent (Á á, É é, Í í, Ó ó, Ú ú), a grave accent (À à, Ù ù), a circumflex ( â, Ê ê, Ô ô, although  seems very rare), a tilde (à ã, Õ õ), or a diaresis (Ü ü, which seems to occur only in the combination Qü or qü). Indexing sequence seems to be in the order: unmarked, acute, grave, circumflex, tilde, diaresis (although I'm making a bit of a guess on the last three). This sequence applies for ordering in the event of a "tie", but the marked vowels are considered equivalent with the unmarked vowels otherwise, so (for example) words beginning with A and Á are intermingled. The only odd consonant character is: Ç / ç, which is considered equivalent to C /c for indexing (but follows in the event of otherwise identical spellings). Portuguese also has the following digraphs: ch, lh, nh, rr, but I do not know the current conventions for indexing them. Traditionally, they were considered separate letters. You might inquire of User:Daniel. to see whether this is still the case. --EncycloPetey 15:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Various ortographic reforms ocurred in Portuguese language through the last hundred years, the last one being in effect since January 2009. Therefore, a relatively high number of different rules produced words to be included here in Wiktionary, including many that would probably be defined as {{obsolete spelling of}}.
  • The Portuguese alphabet is composed of the same 26 letters of the English alphabet and in the same order, from A to Z. This includes the letters K, W and Y, that were once considered not part of the alphabet and are still avoided in favor of substitutions with the same sounds. For example, in Portuguese karate is caratê and Kenya is Quênia.
  • There are the following letters with diacritics: á, à, â, ã, ç, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú (and their uppercase counterparts: Á, À, Â, Ã, Ç, É, Ê, Í, Ó, Ô, Õ, Ú). Some uses of the diacritics were eventually abolished, such as the distinction between tôrre and torre, platéia and plateia, among thousands of other words. All of these letters with diacritics are still very common in lowercase, but some are never used as first letter in any word, so their uppercase usage is restricted.
  • The diaresis (Ü, ü) is now obsolete, but was also very common; it mainly ocurred in the combinations güe, güi, qüe and qüi to determine whether the vowel u would be pronounced. It could also be used to transform diphtongs into hiatuses: saüdade, uïvo, aïpo, etc.
  • Another obsolete use of diacritics is the placing of a grave in certain vowels (À, à, È, è, Ì, ì, Ò, ò, Ù, ù) to change their sounds: pregar and prègar to distinguish between the translations to preach and to nail. Today, the grave has other use: it occurs only in the letter a, to mark certain contractions.
  • There are the following digraphs: bd, bt, cc, cç, ch, ct, gd, gu, lh, mn, nh, pc, pç, pt, qu, rr, sc, sç, ss, tm, xc and xs.
  • Additional digraphs, uses of diacritics and uses of K, W and Y may appear in words directly borrowed from other languages, such as in watt, kanji, walkie-talkie and the names Shakespeare, Loth and Müller.
  • Digraphs and diacritics are not considered separate letters and do not interfere with the alphabetical order. For example, here are some words correctly sorted: cachorro, chaminé, coração, eleger, ética, excelente.
  • In the event of a tie, the order or diacritics commonly used in dictionaries, including diaresis, is: unmarked, cedilla, acute, grave, circumflex, diaresis, tilde. Another example: agua, água, sanguinário, sangüinário. --Daniel. 05:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Romanian: It looks as though there's already a good guide across the top of Index:Romanian. There are a few letters (k, q, w, and y) that are non-native, but do occur in some borrowed foreign words. There is a "concave accent" that can occur over an "a" (as Ă / ă), a circumflex that can occur over "a" or "i" (as Â, â, Î, î), and a "cedilla" (actually a floating symbol not attached) that can occur under "s" or "t" (as Ş, ş, Ţ, ţ). Each of these modified symbols (vowels and consonants) is treated as a separate letter, and is indexed immediately following the same spelling unmarked. All of these except  may occur at the beginning of a word and should have separate index pages. Acute accents over vowels are possible in writing, but are only used in rare circumstances to differentiate between homographs. Of course, check with User:Opiaterein before starting, as he may have additional comments. --EncycloPetey 15:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Life has suddenly become unexpectedly busy, I will try and implement these over the course of the next fortnight, though I had been hoping to have them done yesterday. Conrad.Irwin 23:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I ask what the status on this currently is? Circeus 14:12, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] T-balancing

I think this counts as a bug. --EncycloPetey 15:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Definitely. Should now be fixed (but it's hard to say for certain). Conrad.Irwin 02:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Requested entries - Assisted

Not sure if this was discussed before. Could the code you've written for assisted translations be used to add requested entries without editing the page? It would be one entry field for the entire page and the code would place it in correct alphabetical order. E.g. on Wiktionary:Requested entries:Hungarian but it can be for any language. --Panda10 00:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes-ish, the code has been designed that such changes would require the "minimal" amount of Javascript. The -ish because Javascript cannot sort properly (though we can get it most of the way there), and the "minimal" in quotes, because such a change requires making an edit to the Wikitext and the HTML in parallel (which is, although not hard, not trivial to get right). I don't have any immediate plans to add this feature, but if you want to have a go, feel free (it should be very similar to the way that translations are currently added). Conrad.Irwin 00:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I am hesitant. I don't have a good understanding of how to do this and coding would take away all my time from adding/correcting Hungarian entries. Maybe there is someone else who is more knowledgeable and would be insterested in coding this project for the English requests. This should be much simpler than adding translations. It is really just adding a word (no gender specifications or other grammatical things) and if sorting is not perfect, there is no harm. --Panda10 02:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] "no can do" error message found

Hi cirwin. I had a hunch that paid off. There is an incompatibility between "paperview" and one of my JavaScript extensions. parjer.js does an alert "This doesn't look like a Wiktionary page. No can do I'm afraid." I boldly edited parser.js to add "Conrad Irwin / parser.js\n" at the begninning of all alert messages so they won't be so hard to find in the future. Feel free to change it however you think is best though.

Oh there are also two Google scripts included randomly from somewhere too but I think these were a read herring and not the things which were clashing with paperview. — hippietrail 02:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


[edit] from Georgian Wiktionary

(excuse me, because my knowledge of English is not good)
Hello, I'm David, Admin of Georgian Wiktionary. I've seen English Translation template. It is very easy template for all users. I want this template in its Georgian Wiktionary. I have translated and have something done, but that is not as good as in English. Can you tell me how they made this template? Or is this a secret :) thank you from the outset. Dato deutschland 06:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure what the problem is, but if it is because here they are all closed, and ka:მომხმარებელი:Malafaya they are open, then you need to change the javascript in ka:MediaWiki:Common.js. I am not sure otherwise. Conrad.Irwin 07:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Unsere Vorlage arbeitet. ist nur eine Problem. Englische template hat zusätzliche Funktion (Add translation, sehr leicht). But, georgian template has not this function. Entschuldigen sie bitte mir, wenn ich habe schlecht erklären. Dato deutschland 12:49, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
You can copy User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js to your wiktionary, but you will need to change it to make it work there. I am not able to make these changes for you, sorry. Conrad.Irwin 20:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Race conditions in JavaScript.

Hi Conrad,

Just FYI, I modified the race-condition–handling code in MediaWiki:langcode2name.js and User:Conrad.Irwin/iwiki.js. In the latter case, the issue was that JavaScript is finicky: ! document.getElementById (for example) is true when document lacks a getElementById property, but ! langcode2name is an error if langcode2name is undefined. I don't know why this should be, but I Googled and I tested, and I'm pretty confident of it. In the former case, the issue is that the for(var prop in obj) construct iterates over the names of the properties, not their values, so in this case callback is the string 'iwiki' rather than the function add_prominent_interwikis.

(I don't know if similar race-condition–handling code is being used elsewhere on Wiktionary; if so, I imagine we need to change all of it.)

—RuakhTALK 03:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not used elsewhere, thanks for fixing it. Conrad.Irwin 07:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Old Armenian index

Hi, I figured you're busy lately, but this should be relatively easy. Can you make your bot populate Index:Old Armenian? No tweaks to sorting should be made whatsoever: just the standard Unicode one. --Vahagn Petrosyan 15:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Likewise Index:Hebrew, if you've got a chance. :-)   —RuakhTALK 17:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
I've done Index:Old Armenian on one page, let me know what needs improvement. What do you want done with the Latin letters for Hebrew? Conrad.Irwin 23:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Excellent! Is there a way to index also the words in nested translations like in mouse? --Vahagn Petrosyan 00:35, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks a bunch! Don't worry about the Latin letters — now that I know about them, and they're conveniently indexed, I can go through and take care of them. :-)   —RuakhTALK 17:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
By the way, the Hebrew index is not-clickable in Opera. I mean the browser does not recognize the links except for the last letter ת. And it was that way even before automatic indexing. --Vahagn Petrosyan 23:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
    5 0
    2 a
    1 d
    1 f
   22 h
    1 l
    4 m
    2 n
    3 p
    1 q
    2 s
    1 t
    2 y
    2 z
  698 א
  370 ב
  224 ג
  183 ד
  370 ה
   59 ו
   90 ז
  289 ח
  109 ט
  203 י
  206 כ
  605 ל
    1 ם
  762 מ
    1 ן
  246 נ
  254 ס
  265 ע
  259 פ
  154 צ
  291 ק
  198 ר
  390 ש
  240 ת
 6516 total

[edit] T-balancing error still exists

See [3]. Same weird problem as before. --EncycloPetey 18:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'll have another look then, (and secretly hope it's a caching problem and that they were still using an old version) Conrad.Irwin 23:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Good work

Help:Interacting with humans is a real step forward in explaining how Wiktionary works to newcomers. It was sorely needed, and hopefully it'll prove its worth in the future. Best, Knepflerle 02:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Template:gd-noun

Hi, can I ask a favour of you? EncycloPetey created this template and asked me to comment, which I did, and he improved it so it's just about perfect now, with only one thing left he doesn't know how to do: Many masculine nouns in Scottish Gaelic have the same genitive singular and nominative plural. EP tweaked the template so that when one writes eg

  • {{gd-noun|g=m|gen=balaich|pl=balaich}}
it appears as

(When the form is the same it affects eg the genitive plural or vocative, so it's helpful if it's pointed out.) Question is, using accelerated editing the "form-of" page has a definition line for the genitive only - is it possible to make it create both the genitive and the plural lines as at balaich, so that the line for the plural wouldn't have to be added manually? Another example of such word, where I haven't created the inflected forms' entry yet, is oileanach. Thanks in advance whether it is technically possible or not. --Duncan 16:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's possible. I will try and get it to work for you. Conrad.Irwin 20:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I think it now works, if you clear your cache (ctrl+shift+F5) Conrad.Irwin 20:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
For some reason, when I try it I get a "%23" at the start of the second definition line instead of a hash (#). --EncycloPetey 23:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Argh! it seems highly browser-dependent, which is why for the other hashes I use #, unfortunately, that seems to introduce an extra space. Meh, I'm not sure I can fix it trivially - a fix needs to be made to w:User:Lupin/AutoEdit.js - or, perhaps better, to stop using that entirely. Conrad.Irwin 00:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

When I deleted "w:User:Lupin/AutoEdit.js" from User:Duncan MacCall/monobook.js the accelerated editing stopped working at all, but never mind - highlighting "%23" and overtyping it with "#" is still much better than copypasting the line and overtyping "genitive" with "plural". Another thing occurred to me in the meantime, though - my bad, I should have noticed it at once: the accelerated editing creates the inflected entries like "three apostrophes - inflected form - three apostrophes", thus only making them bold - but I think those too, not just the lemma, should show the gender of the noun - at least that's how I've been creating them until now, though I don't know about any policy requiring it, and it seems to me from eg the Spanish puños that this can be achieved - could you make the template work similarly to the Spanish one? Apologies and thanks in advance again, --Duncan 15:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Forget it, it doesn't matter any longer. Sorry for having wasted your time. --Duncan 17:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] parser error message

Though I can not detect any harm caused, I am getting a message that the parser has failed after every edit of an entry. DCDuring TALK 14:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] newNode

Hi Cirwin. Last night I actually got around to using newNode() for the first time rather than just reading over code that uses it. Before I actually thought it read through one big object to create a tree of nodes. Now I realize that of course it does just create one node at a time but that calls can be easily nested.

Which all boils down to... I love it. Put it in Common.js ASAP (-: — hippietrail 02:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] q

'd itbe myDell inspiron5160 isalredy2slow4Dragon/modern software?--史凡/ʂɚ˨˩fan˩˥/shi3fan2 (歡迎光臨/Welcome! 請也用/Please also use skype: sven0921為我/since I suffer RSI!) 07:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

The piece of software I linked to is not speech recognition and requires very few resources to run (it has the added bonus of being much more accurate than speech recognition). Conrad.Irwin 10:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Serbo-Croatian

You commented in the BP. I assume you also know of the current vote (but am writing just in case not).​—msh210℠ 22:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Helping search engines find collocations that don't meet CFI

As you must know, our search engine doesn't find terms like "stiff drink" when they are marked up per WT:ELE as "stiff drink". I also note that en.wikt gets a very high percentage of its hits from search engines (per Alexa). It would not be an evil use of meta-tags (or whatever they are called) to incorporate certain collocations which the search engines would not find due solely to wikimarkup. I took a look at Free Dictionary source for their "stiff" page. They span "stiff" "drink", so no markup interferes with the collocation. Another way of doing it would be the "Collocations" header that MZajac has been advocating, assuming that the search engine looks that deeply, especially "beneath" our show/hide templates. Any thoughts? DCDuring TALK 15:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Right now it's finding stiff, with the excerpt text “Adjective: A stiff drink; a stiff dose; a stiff breeze. Translations: of an object, rigid, hard to bend, inflexible. Finnish. fi | jäykkä ...” (I can't tell whether it is compiling this excerpt from the current entry text or has indexed an older version.)
If the search engine can't find phrases broken up by formatting, then it should (must) be fixed (regardless of any other workarounds we adopt in the meantime). Is there a bug report we can all vote for? If not, then let's file one. —Michael Z. 2009-07-14 15:30 z
Me too. Maybe something has been changed. Maybe there is a problem only in more specific circumstances. Maybe I erred. I'll have to pay closer attention to exactly what situations lead to unsatisfactory search results, if any. DCDuring TALK 16:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I like the collocations idea, except that I fear that such a section will get unwieldy fast (especially on certain pages). Allowing boldfaced common collocations (instead of merely boldfaced words) in example sentences is another idea, though not one I'm all that fond of. See {{Keyword}} for yet another idea.​—msh210℠ 15:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The template addresses the issue, of course, but at the cost of a lot of labor and, if done by bots, say, using COCA collocations, a lot of space. Using lists of the top COCA collocations to populate the keyword template if the text is not in the body might be seen as cheating. It would have to be explicitly sold to the search engine folks.
Perhaps we could look at COCA to find the top N collocations, insert the list in a namespace like "Talk", "Citations", or, dare I say it, "Collocations", and add usage examples manually for some of the redlinked ones based on that data, using a template {{usex}} to facilitate formatting and metatagging at the same time. DCDuring TALK 16:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I'm not sure that {{Keyword}} addresses the issue: search engines use keywords, perhaps, but I don't know whether Wiktionary's internal one does. Another idea is to not boldface anything in citations in the citations namespace (but to continue boldfacing in citations in the entry), and to by default search also in the citations namespace. Actually, I like this idea: it doesn't require "cheating" or new infrastructure. I don't know, though, whether we can change the default search namespaces. That should be easy to find out, though.​—msh210℠ 16:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I was going to stop complaining about our search engine until I have a better feel for when or how it fails from a user perspective. I would love to read up to 10 pages of more-or-less English on how the Mediawiki search software works. Any very easy low-resource-cost solutions, no matter how partial, are very desirable. DCDuring TALK 18:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
You may be able to find what you are after at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Rainman/search_internals. I have recently filed a bug about the search engine, which currently doesn't index template expansion either (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18861), and been told that that is unlikely to be fixed in the near future - though feel free to file another one. When I tested it http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search/"stiff drink" found it in stiff, but http://www.google.co.uk/?q="stiff+drink"+site:en.wiktionary.org didn't find it. It would certainly be worth including these as plain text, but I'd have thought google would get things right... Conrad.Irwin 23:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the issue with the built-in search may have been fixed. The issue you mention with Google just has to do with indexing delay; its cached version is from Jul 11, 2009 06:37:37 GMT, which was before DCDuring added the "stiff drink" sense and example. I'm sure it'll be fine once they re-index the page. —RuakhTALK 23:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. Looks just about right for me. I'll be paying more exact attention to any search problems that I experience so I can be more specific. As Ruakh says, the problem with wikiformatting preventing MW internal search from working seems resolved. Whether google search has a problem with wikiformat is the next question. The last question regards what could be called "collocation stuffing". How can we productively insert common collocations what don't meet CFI into web pages? We could:
  1. make sure that all headwords deleted by reason of being SoP appear in one or more relevant entries.
  2. have a kind of a checklist to make sure that N of the most common collocations for a given headword appear in the entry. Or
  3. could just stuff the top M collocations into metatags and be done with it.
I'm sure there are better ideas, too. And many drawbacks and implementation problems, not to mention questions as to desirability.
Per Alexa, we do seem to be getting a lot of our traffic from search engines already, much more than from WP. And we pass many users on to sister projects. Both of those facts should make us seem valuable to WM, I hope. Maybe we could become important enough to get more of their attention to our more distinctive needs. I get the impression that we are sucking hind tit most of the time. DCDuring TALK 00:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
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