User talk:OrenBochman

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Again, welcome! --Sije 23:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Hungarian Morphology[edit]

Hungarian conjugation templates[edit]

Hi Oren, please take a look at the http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary_talk:About_Hungarian#Conjugation_templates section about a new system Qorilla created. I think eventually we will implement that system. --Panda10 22:54, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Naming & Classification[edit]

My verb conjuration tables sorts the verbs according to 80 types of conjuration. So it is my view that a detailed document is necessary on template selection and parameters. The following are lacking

  1. general guide for template selection
    1. A summary of verb classification (parallel to a grammar book).draft
    2. I could create a list of the 80 types.
    3. Each has its characteristics
    4. how these relate to the actual template
  2. template documentation.
    1. each template should indicate in its documentation its intended use <end user, intermediate template, form>
    2. and its available parameters
  3. information needed for template selection aka verb classification.
    1. irregular verb
    2. harmony type
    3. stem alternation
    4. past stem [t|ott|alternation]
    5. change in forming the subjunctive
  4. template naming: two main options
    1. technical names - indicating linguistic features (my preference)
    2. representational names - indicating the most frequently used representative verb in the group.
  Either approach has it merit. The main question with representational name is 
  would an editor benefit more from an example to select the correct template. 
I would find it harder to use but a native Hungarian might not.

Improvements[edit]

Some changes I'd support:

  • supply some additional information:
  1. indicate the verb classification.
  2. indicate the thematic cases which are generated by the verb. ie. to sit = <none>, vs to give <someone-from,something,someone-to>
  3. indicate a single Hungarian personal pronoun en under "1st person sg".
  4. add a note about the polite personal pronoun forms as well. This could be supplemented.
  5. add the verbal noun (form) and other systematic form like the -het -hat forms. This would link to those words formed and fill a gap in explaining the etymologies of such derived words.
  6. for the benefit of both users and editors green/blue/red highlighting irregular parts of in the table
    1. alternative stems (blue)
    2. changes in past stem (green)
    3. subjunctive imperative (red)
  • decrease clutter in the table by:
  1. remove the "OR" in entries that have several options
  2. replace the "én téged/titeket" with an astrix to a note at the bottom of the table. (what is this form).

OrenBochman 11:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

elvág[edit]

Please take a look at the changes I made in this entry. I've been correcting several of your edits recently. The language header has to be level 2, not level 3. Please make sure to use the correct Hungarian spelling when you add the headword to the conjugation template. Also, please make sure the plural form of Hungarian nouns is correct when you create them. For example, the correct plural of aprósütemény is aprósütemények and not *aprósüteményok. --Panda10 18:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the assitance. I've noticed your changes. I am trying to make new edits more in line the final form. I think you got into aprósütemény before I was done and it still has some of the page I used to make it. I'll update my "template" page with more accurate header levels.

Is there a reliable online source for looking up plural and accusative forms? My dictionaries don't list these. OrenBochman 21:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is a good site to look up inflected forms: http://corpus.nytud.hu/cgi-bin/e-szokincs/alaktan. Enter the word in the first field and click OK. --Panda10 22:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew participles[edit]

Hi. There's some discussion at [[Wiktionary talk:About Hebrew#"Participle" as a part-of-speech header in entries]] that you may be able to provide useful input to, if you're so inclined. Thanks.​—msh210 (talk) 06:43, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Categorizing[edit]

Hello, when creating a Hungarian entry/section, can you please categorize in some way, such as {{infl|hu|noun}} for a noun, or just writing Category:Hungarian nouns at the bottom. Thanks, Mglovesfun (talk) 09:37, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


I am often reference Wiktionary as I review new terms I've recently learnt and add simple ones if they (are missing). Putting the correct templates slows things down too much. I will expand terms adding templates, RFE and RFP conjurgation, catagories etc within a couple of days if still required - but fixing up a culturlly significent lemma words can require a couple of hours tinkering; (Adding correct templates in hungerian requires additional morphological/ethymological/phonological research in external database/dictionaries) so I try to avoid introducing errors. In case there is a mistake another patroling editor will usualy feel obliged to correct mistakes - but if the only issues is ommisions they can persue thier own agenda.

Regarding your specific request - it seems to add minimal value to indicate that the phrase is a phrase or a noun once this has been established by the header, epecialy when this will be done by adding templates for the plural and other forms.

However, if my modus operandi offends let me know and I will stop until I complete work on an edit-tools extension for inserting hungerian templates. (I've made one hungerian IPA)

P.S. I've noticed you use regex and scripts on your user pages. Can you point me to where there is more info on these things. (I would like to make a script that generates/checks errors in (hungerain) IPA entries. I'm creating a set of examples in Appendix:Hungarian_pronunciation_assimilation and after that I'd like to write such a script. OrenBochman

Essentially it means another user will have to follow you round cleaning up your edits, or simply leave them wrong. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Is not having a catagory entry wrong? OrenBochman 10:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I reviewed Wiktionary:Entry_layout_explained it seems to indicates that adding catgories is at the editors discression. However, I will defer to your greater experience if you categorically requesting that I desist from adding quick enteries :-P OrenBochman 11:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
You've got the emphasis wrong; typing {{infl|hu|noun}} will take you about three seconds. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:33, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
In your case, editing in english perhaps it would take 3 seconds. In Hungerian the above inflection template will prompt a corrections since the a {{hu-noun|ok}} or other variant based on vowel harmony is called for since term is not inflected or declined. The above inflection would be suitable in case the term has certain suffixes attached. I try to avoid introducing inflected forms, except within phrases. p.s. check my contributions and you will see I add lots of catagory where it is releventOrenBochman 11:52, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

rohan[edit]

Can you please explain how your new system is better than the old one? For example, your changes at rohan: rohan vhova (somewhere, direction) / vhonnan (somewhere, origin) - How will the learner know the actual suffixes to use? rohan vhova (a házba, az utcára, a falnak, a gyerekért, a házig), vhonnan (a háztól, a házból, az udvarról), tűzként rohan, etc. If you don't use the hu-case template, all these separate cases will not be correctly categorized. Please stop and think before you continue. --Panda10 20:45, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Panda I've placed the answer to your questions in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary_talk:About_Hungarian#Prescriptions for all to see. Also my recommendation is hardly a new system. It is intended to supplement the current practice. In the long view I am not sure that the separate cases could be correctly categorized the way you have started to. OrenBochman 11:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

múlik[edit]

There is no such form as *múlom. Please reverse your changes to the template. If you are unsure about the forms, please go to this website to verify. Thanks. --Panda10 23:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Panda - Before reverting the template here is the situation - Based on a similar verb I put in two parameters changes to the template. One to allow múlomik and another to disable *múlom. So the problem that remains is that {{hu-conj-ok|múl|ott|intrans=y|ik=y|ok-only=y}} won't respect the the intransitive parameter. Any ideas? I thought that intrans=y would be handled by its parent ""hu-conj"".

P.S. I figured out how to export the parameter from hu-conj-ok to hu-conj via |intrans={{{intrans|}}} so now múlik should be fine.

P.S.S It appears that elmúlik and kimúlik may both be incorrectly conjugated.

  • elmúlik has *elmúlom ?? and
  • kimúlik has *kimúlom ?? and is transitive but it makes no sense that to die can take an object.
  • regarding the past tense http://corpus.nytud.hu/cgi-bin/e-szokincs/ gives two options - to their past tense which I think should have -ott in 3rd person. My book says they should have -ott.

I think they should be:

  • {{hu-conj-ok|elmúl|ott|intrans=y|ik=y|ok-only=y}} and
  • {{hu-conj-ok|kimúl|ott|intrans=y|ik=y|ok-only=y}} repectively

OrenBochman 09:25, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I reviewed the updates at múlik: Looks much better. Still a problem: The past tense can be both múlt and múlott. The future participle múlandó is missing. The past participle should be múlt. Regarding elmúlik and kimúlik - they should have the same forms as múlik. --Panda10 18:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi as you probably know the master verb template hu-conj does not support two form for the past - I switched it from ott to t and that also fixed the past participle. I'll have a look why future participle is broken - but If I fix it, it will impact all verbs that use the template since it is not parameterised.

It might be a better solution to create a new template for these verbs instead of tweaking an existing template. --Panda10 20:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

írok, írunk[edit]

Hi, I corrected the above two entries. Please do not use the tr parameter to add translations to verb forms and noun forms. The best practice is to write an example sentence. The inflected forms may have many more meanings than just one and it's better to give specific examples. --Panda10 11:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I will stop adding tr translations.
I fear that even though I just completed a second course in Hungarian, I am not confident writing example sentences which would require review.
There are a couple of issues arising from using examples to support noun or verb form in place of minimal gloss. The current definition provided by the template are technical and omit both semantic data and a link to the concept in plain English. In many cases the definition references the "Head word" e.g. (ír) may not supply sufficient information to make sense of the definition (ambiguity arises from multiple word-senses, etymologies).
In view of these issues - can you point me to where this best practice is documented. OrenBochman 20:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Did you have a chance to look at the updated entries under írok and írunk? Do they appear more useful to you than before? If not, what form would be more useful? I can't recall where the best practice is documented regarding verb forms and noun forms of foreign language entries. But if you consider that a single verb may have multiple definitions, it will be eventually impossible to repeat all the definitions in all of its conjugated forms. That's why it is easier to just provide an example that can be as simple as írunk - we write, we are writing. It does not have to be a full sentence. --Panda10 21:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the word-senses etc should not be repeated in inflected/declined entry page unless it has a new meaning. Still I think that a technical spec of the inflected/declined form is inadequate and that writing examples for inflected forms is not practical. I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Modify the declination template to point the user to a Hungarian Noun appendices section describing what instrumental means.
2. Modify the inflection template to point the user to Hungarian Verb appendices section describing what subjunctive means means. For example gyere is not subjunctive but conditional but an appendix would explain it more adequately.
3. If possible we should add accelerated creation to the top level inflected/declined templates. This is significant since Wikitionary does not support searching through the templates output.
OrenBochman 18:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Good ideas. I will think about how to implement it. It will be a lot of work. --Panda10 20:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Please stop editing Hungarian[edit]

Please stop editing Hungarian entries until your Hungarian improves. It takes a lot of time and effort for someone else to correct your mistakes, the example sentences, translations, etc. and since no one is doing that, the quality will suffer. Also, the new system you designed and implemented for verbs is going to create a lot of confusion. Please keep in mind that this is an English dictionary and everything has to be explained in English, not in Hungarian. Your native language is neither English, nor Hungarian. You should focus your efforts on improving Hebrew entries. --Panda10 22:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Email?[edit]

Oren, could you give me your email so I could put you in contact with a few people who are interested in working with you on improving the MediaWiki Lucene search functionality? Thanks. Sumanah 17:10, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, found it. Sorry. Sumanah 17:17, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

elnök‎, házelnök‎, alelnök‎[edit]

Hi Oren, these words are not suffixed with -nök, only end in -nök. The first is shortening of the former elölülnök, the last two are compound words. I removed the category. Please take a look at the etymology of the words before adding a suffix category. Thanks. --Panda10 23:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)