User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV

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Buzulkuşu[edit]

AviBase (The World Bird Database) contains this word. Another resource is the Russian dictionary of Pamukkale University [1]. If you search by Google, you may find results from some dictionaries which are very famous in Turkey (like TurEng, YeminliSözlük, SesliSözlük, etc.). --176.219.166.20 12:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

You keep saying that, and the other guy keeps saying it’s a made-up word. Add three WT:CFI-conforming citations or it won’t be readded. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I was want to remove at https://species.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diuca_speculifera&action=history the "buzulkuşu" word but I have been blocked :( Can you remove that "buzulkuşu" word and my block please? --123snake45 (talk) 07:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
I can’t. I’m not an admin at Wikispecies. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:48, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Flood flag[edit]

Hi UM, could you please give me the flood flag for a while? I'm going to add lots of Spanish adjective forms (without a bot, by the way, it is using WT:ACCEL). And also a few Portuguese ones, especially for you. --Type56op9 (talk) 17:20, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but I suspect it may be removed by someone else. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
And one more time, if you'd be so kind. --Type56op9 (talk) 16:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Requesting Mentor[edit]

I have been contributing to the Wauja Wiktionary for a few months. I just learned today that there is a mentoring program for new users, and I would be very grateful for some mentoring help. Last August, you kindly helped me with some technical issues. At this time, I would like advice regarding how to meet the Criteria for Inclusion when the language you are working with has an oral tradition, and not a written one.

Wauja is an Arawak language spoken by about 400 indigenous people in the Parque Indígena do Xingu in Central Brazil. A generation ago, the Wauja had no familiarity with writing at all. Today, they have established village schools where their children are learning to read and write in both Portuguese and Wauja. However, at this time, there are no published works authored by native speakers of the Wauja language. I would like some advice regarding how I can contribute to the Wauja-English Wiktionary and follow community CFI norms, even though there are currently no publications in Wauja. Indigenous languages of Brazil are natural languages, and deserve to be included in Wiktionary. If the CFI rules require at least one attestation from a written source, then for languages that have no publications with ISBNs, perhaps we could allow transcripts of audio and video recordings? If that is not a good solution, I hope we can find a better one. That is why I am writing you, so you can perhaps give me guidance regarding how Wauja entries can be added and still meet community CFI norms.

I am planning to return to the Wauja community in Brazil this summer to train a team of young Wauja schoolteachers in contributing to the Wauja-Portuguese Wiktionary site, as they are bilingual in Wauja and Portuguese. These Wauja teachers have been struggling with the task of creating and maintaining manuscripts of their dictionary in Microsoft Word, in addition to printing and distributing them periodically at great expense. They were thrilled and delighted when I told them they could build a Wauja-Portuguese Wiktionary, and thereby do it all online. Recently Chuck Entz suggested I bring the problem of CFIs for languages without publications to the Beer Parlour for discussion. I followed his advice, but I feel out of my depth. I simply want to contribute to the Wauja Wiktionary, train the Wauja to participate in building a Wauja-Portuguese site themselves, and abide by community norms. If the CFI norms exclude all natural languages that lack a body of publications, I hope we can modify the norms for such languages, until they do have publications. Above all, I think it is important that all human languages be included. Thanks! Emi-Ireland (talk) 17:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

@Emi-Ireland: Well, the mentoring project has kind of been abandoned for a couple of years, and it never really kicked off to begin with. Regardless, I will be glad to help.
  • The most important thing that you have to keep in mind is that the English Wiktionary does not aim to be a primary source of information. I know this ends up limiting our ability to include words in languages with limited written traditions, but it also prevents made-up stuff from being presented as real words. If you had to patrol the recent changes page, you’d be surprised by the amount of rubbish that people try to add every day. And it’s not only people making stuff up, it’s also people who end up adding incorrect information because they want to help out with languages they don’t understand very well. Just this week the community has run across some Spanish nonsense from a user who got blocked over two years.
  • So far, you’re doing the right thing by making that proposal in the BP. It will probably require a vote in order to alter the policy. Until then, know that audio and video documentation is also acceptable, but they are subject to the same restriction as writing: they have to be published; some video on Youtube won’t do.
  • Didn’t you mention there was a Bible published in Wauja? You can use that as well.
  • There are published scientific articles about Wauja, they can also be used to cite words:
    • Waurá e Mehináku: um breve estudo comparativo (Corbera 2012)
    • Uma análise fonológica das listas de palavras Wauja (Arawák) (Postigo 2011)
    • As línguas Waurá e Mehináku do Brasil Central (Corbera Mori 2005)
    • A nasalidade de vogais em Waurá e Mehináku (Mori 2009)
  • Perhaps the best solution for you is to request the creation of a Wauja Wikipedia and Wiktionary. This way you and the Wauja community can have more control over what should be included. Read this page: meta:Language committee/Handbook (requesters) for instructions on how to do that. I warn that it usually takes months before such requests come to fruition. Even when it does, I ask that you don’t give up on us! We are very happy with your contributions, which is why we have turned a mostly blind eye to the citability issues of your entries.
  • One last thing: when you teach the guy how to use the Portuguese Wiktionary, keep in mind that different dictionaries have different rules and different layout structures.
Cheers. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks so much, Ungoliant, for your prompt and very thorough reply. You've given me lots of good information. I will consider it all carefully. For now, I'd like to ask exactly what would qualify as "publishing" a video or audio recording? Would having it deposited at a public archive, such as the Smithsonian Institution or the Library of Congress be considered publishing? If not, what would be considered publishing?
Thank you for the sources. It was kind of you to look them up. These are my colleagues, whom I respect. As a rule, however, I don't use snippets collected out of context by non-native speakers unless they are checked by native speakers. I apply this rule to my own field notes, as well.
There are two words currently in the Wauja Wiktionary that I know to be incorrect. They were posted by a Wiktionarian, who quite reasonably took them from a superb reference book written by a scholar who is a world-renowned authority on Arawak languages. I personally think her work on Arawak languages is the best there is. Obviously a reliable source. The problem is that these two Wauja words were collected by someone else, who only briefly visited the Wauja and did not speak the language. These two words were later included in the excellent book on Amazonian languages by the Arawak scholar, who has learned several Arawak languages herself. She just doesn't happen to speak Wauja. She published what little was available at the time on Wauja. In any case, I don't plan to try to get these two mangled words corrected on Wiktionary. Instead, when the Wauja themselves are trained to participate in Wiktionary, they will address it, I am sure. They will wince when they see one of the words, which is an iconic Arawak word, familiar from sacred stories and everyday life, and spoken many times a day.
To my knowledge, there is still no published bible in Wauja, though the project is underway, and some young Wauja receive wages for working on the translation. However, this is not a suitable source for a Wauja dictionary, because it is merely a translation from another language and another culture. The Wauja have their own language, culture, and religion. They have their own stories of creation, and their own moral system. If we had no sources of Wauja literature spoken by Wauja storytellers, then it would make sense to use a translated Christian bible, full of translated foreign concepts, as a source. But we have excellent, lengthy, transcribed audio and video recordings of Wauja literature spoken by Wauja storytellers. (If you give me your email address, I can send you a link to a BBC video of a Wauja Storyteller. Note this is not a print publication; it is a video.)
So, when I say that Wauja lacks publications, I am referring to print publications authored by native speakers. (There are oral "publications" the Wauja themselves would recognize as authoritative: recordings of articulate elders performing oral texts.) If you have a choice between:
(1) A published source containing out-of-context snippets collected by someone who did not speak the language, versus
(2) An unpublished transcript of a lengthy oration by a native speaker who is a respected storyteller or ceremonial authority, along with the original audio or video recording
The second option is BY FAR more valuable, more informative, more authoritative. Ask any native speaker of an endangered language, and they will tell you that is merely common sense. After all, would you take English lessons from someone who couldn't speak English themselves? Who couldn't carry on even the most basic conversation in English? The danger of assuming anything that's published is authoritative is exactly the same as that you cite above: "people who end up adding incorrect information because they want to help out with languages they don’t understand very well."
A final note: in the relations between members of powerful societies and less-powerful societies there is a long and unfortunate history of domination and appropriation. We should be very conscious of the many ways in which speakers of minority and endangered languages have been marginalized and silenced, defined by the OTHER, and not allowed to define themselves.
For all these reasons, it is intellectually and morally important that we ask ourselves: Who is the authority regarding Wauja language, a native speaker of Wauja, or someone who is not Wauja, and who may not even speak or understand Wauja at all? Is the printed word so authoritative that it can silence the voices of an entire people who deserve to define themselves? That's why I want to train the Wauja to participate in Wiktionary themselves, so they can correct the clumsy, if well-intentioned, mistakes the rest of us have made. Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I’m not sure what counts as published as far as non-textual media goes. AFAIK a situation like this has never been discussed by the community.
But you’re probably safe with anything that is being sold (i.e. DVDs of films, series, documentaries, etc.) or archived by organisations (i.e. SIL’s audio recordings), but not stuff that is only “archived” by an individual (i.e. a personal VHS tape).
As for the Bible, it doesn’t have to be only source (once it gets published). There’s no need to exclude words for foreign concepts, and it’s not like every word in it will be for foreign concepts.
By the way, if you are 100% sure the two words you mentioned are incorrect, please state your case at the WT:RFD page. Even though we place high value on published material, we don’t want to replicate their errors.
Equinox just explained to me that I don't need to provide a source to post a note on the Talk page for a lemma, so I have just done so. Emi-Ireland (talk) 00:50, 4 February 2015 (UTC).
I don't think the words need to be deleted. The translations are correct, they were simply transcribed incorrectly. Particularly kamo, which had the wrong vowel and an accent placed on the wrong syllable. Once source materials are available for these words, examples can be added. Emi-Ireland (talk) 01:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Ungoliant (falai) 23:23, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Obrigada, Ungoliant! If you think the Wiktionary community might consider recordings that are "archived by organisations" as "published," I will make sure to do that ASAP.
Re: the errors, Unfortunately, for these words, I don't currently have any suitable sources. It's in my head, which is not a source. I could easily get an email from a native speaker (which I think would be authoritative), but I have been asked not to use email or Facebook IMs, even if written by native speakers. I think the Wiktionary community should consider this issue, as native speakers of endangered languages rarely have access to university presses and other major publication venues. I think that communications written by literate native speakers of LWTs, if duly deposited with an archiving organization, should be considered acceptable as sources, but that is for the Wiktionary community to decide.
Pending specific guidance from the Wiktionary community, I have lots of reference material based on recordings of native speakers that have been transcribed, with the transcriptions carefully checked by literate native speakers. I feel that it's appropriate for me to contribute that. On the other hand, if I have an idea in my head about a word, but no source, particularly since I am not a native speaker, then I believe I really should get a source Wiktionary would accept and not muddy the waters with an unsourced entry. Given the issues surrounding attestation for LWTs, I want to provide proper sources for anything I contribute. I do believe audio recordings of native speakers, with transcriptions verified by literate native speakers, are among the best possible sources, but the Wiktionary community may not agree. If the community can decide exactly what sources are acceptable, I will provide them. If emails from native speakers are not acceptable, and only an audio or video recording that has been deposited at an archive will do, then I will obtain the recording when I return to Brazil in September 2015, deposit the transcribed recording at an archive as appropriate, and make the change.
Above all, I want to abide as strictly as I can by Wiktionary community norms, particularly because I have told the Wauja I am starting a Wauja-English Wiktionary site that I will show them in September. This September, people will be traveling long distances by motorboat from two satellite villages to the main village — just to discuss Wiktionary. From elders to young university-educated schoolteachers, everyone is very excited about the project. I don't want to do anything that would undermine that project. The plan is to (1) build a Wauja-English Wiktionary, already underway (2) build a Wauja-Portuguese Wiktionary, to be initiated after September by the Wauja themselves with my help, and that of any Portuguese-speakers who want to help them, as well, and (3) eventually build a Wauja-Wauja Wiktionary site, as you suggest. Perhaps that would come about in 2016. We have to train a seasoned team of Wauja Wiktionarians first. Emi-Ireland (talk) 00:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Lock[edit]

The Obama page is locked. Please add Obomber as a synonym. —This unsigned comment was added by 89.242.86.7 (talk).

Is this Pass a Method? Before I do that, tell me: isn’t Obomber derogatory? — Ungoliant (falai) 19:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
It is, but you can tag it as derogatory under the "sense" template. 89.242.86.73 22:18, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

sniper[edit]

See discussion on definition talk page that is the best place to have it. WritersCramp (talk) 19:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Aprender alemão[edit]

Você tem interesse em aprender alemão? Conheço um curso de nível iniciante a intermediário por rádio chamado Deutsch, Warum Nicht?, que foi criado por uma famosa rádio da Alemanha em colaboração com o Instituto Goethe. Consiste em ouvir a sequência da lição (que conta uma história e introduz conceitos gramáticos) e depois ler uma ou duas páginas comentando sobre. Se quiser, posso te enviar o material completo do curso por e-mail. - Alumnum (talk) 06:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Obrigado. Vou dar uma olhada. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

raptor[edit]

Hi there,

your revert in raptor of my splitting the translations with those of bird of prey is unfortunate, in either of these two cases:

  1. I split them because several languages have both terms as well: "bird of prey" ("predatory bird"), and "raptor" ("bird of theft/catch/grab/snatch").
  2. if this must be reverted, then you should also revert my work in bird of prey, else many translations will be lost for good.

--Jerome Potts (talk) 18:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean that raptor and bird of prey are not synonyms? If so, the definition of raptor needs to be updated. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not saying that they aren't synonyms. I do, however, find it interesting that other languages also have both ways of naming them: the "bird of prey"/"predatory bird" way, and the "bird of catch" way. Therefore, i propose to keep the two distinct, like such:
English raptor bird of prey
French rapace oiseau de proie
German Raubvogel Greifvogel
Slovene ujeda ptica roparica
Other languages seem to use one of these two ways of naming them; that is, some call them "bird of prey", while others "bird of catch". --Jerome Potts (talk) 23:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Reichlich[edit]

You know that reich means rich and lich means ly? richly. It's correct. —This unsigned comment was added by MontChevalier (talkcontribs).

That doesn’t mean that the words formed with -ly will be accurate translations of those formed with -lich. In this case, reichlich is an adjective, while richly is an adverb. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

расправа[edit]

Thank you very much for pointing out the issue over wether it was a verb or noun! How did this come to your attention if you don't mind me asking? Davski (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

As an administrator, I have to patrol the recent edits to make sure they’re OK. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

My own Wiktionary[edit]

I made my own Wiktionary. Just for the hell of it. It's so much fun for me to use: http://wikitoslav.monathevampirewiki.org/wiki/Wikitoslav:Frumpsida

Click the random page button or search for stuff if you want to see its content. NativeCat drop by and say Hi! 00:27, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

For your conlang only? — Ungoliant (falai) 00:29, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
BTW, there is a line you can place in the MW configuration file to allow lowercase pages. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:39, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Hm. I didn't know that. I thought that this was only able to be set up for Wiktionary. Thanks for letting me know. I'm trying to fix it now. NativeCat drop by and say Hi! 00:54, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Well it didn't work. :( So I can't do that...

I tried what it said and it messed the site up. I might do it later. NativeCat drop by and say Hi! 01:01, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

You have to add
$wgCapitalLinks = false;
to a file called LocalSettings.php — Ungoliant (falai) 01:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I did this, adding it to the bottom of the page on LocalSettings.php , and it made my site just show up blank and so I had to delete the line and put it back to the way it was. :( NativeCat drop by and say Hi! 01:29, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Related terms[edit]

Entendido. Agradeço pelo aviso. - Alumnum (talk) 00:01, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Servir[edit]

Could you check these edits quickly please? Originated from an anon IP and I'm not 100% sure if they are correct. Obrigado. Jberkel (talk) 14:33, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

There’s something very strange going on: the diff of his edit to Module:pt-conj/data/-ir show a removal of 2,245 bytes, but actually content was added.
Anyway, I fixed the incorrect verb forms. Module:pt-conj/data/-servir can be deleted, right? — Ungoliant (falai) 15:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, noticed the weird diff as well, looks like a mw-bug. And the extra module can be deleted. Ta! Jberkel (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2015 (UTC)