User talk:Ziusudra

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Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wiktionary. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:


I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk (discussion) and vote pages using four tildes, like this: ~~~~, which automatically produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to one of the discussion rooms or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --EncycloPetey 15:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation[edit]

The {{accent:US}} is deprecated and should not be used. --EncycloPetey 15:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am reading it wrong, [[Template:accent:US]] is not marked as deprecated. After a quick and fruitless search for guidelines on the use of the accent templates, I made a stab at what I thought might be useful. (I don't find the rhyme template useful; that one really needs deprecation.)
I also noticed also that you changed my phonetic square brackets back to phonemic virgules, and added a length marker to the American "open o". I don't believe vowel length is phonemic here, nor is it present phonetically. I find that many editors of both Wikipedia and Wiktionary tend to treat virgules as meaning just "pronunciation", and always use them with the IPA template, without any nuance as to their systematic or phonological implication (let alone "broad" vs. "narrow").
--Ziusudra 01:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
That issue has been discussed many times and at length here. The virgules are correct here, since we are using phonemic pronunciation in most cases. --EncycloPetey 01:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Are "we" making the claim that vowel length is phonemic in US <warden>? --Ziusudra 01:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
No, but ɑː and ɔː are being used as US phonemes. Our distinction between phonemic and phonetic is not absolute, and vowel length usually gets indicated. --EncycloPetey 01:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I suppose that would also account for your retaining <ɹ> as a "phonemic" symbol, when there is no /r/:/ɹ/ contrast in the language? If the point is to both be narrow and broad at the same time, then perhaps you should be using "\" as your delimiter, like Merriam-Webster, and abandon the self-contradictory irony of "phonemic pronunciation". --Ziusudra 11:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The switch to <ɹ> was a recent decision. It was done because, while there is no distinction within English, we are a multilingual dictionary, so using the same symbol to represent two very different sounds depending on which language the symbol appears in was deemed misleading to English Learners using the site. You can see the discussion on that isssue at WT:VOTE. The debate had been going on for the past two years. --EncycloPetey 15:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Wiktionary logo showing pronunciation in square brackets
I understand the exigencies of ESL fully, although I was not aware that a vote was taking place in Wiktionary, and that by its outcome your usage is now "policy". And though my opinion will now be discounted, the issue is not new to me; I have been aware of it in great detail for many, many, many years. The arguments adduced do not alter my view of the inappropriateness of the virgule for your multilingual purposes; rather, they reinforce it. However, as I perceive that your heels are dug in on the subject, I have no choice but to retire from the field and let you have it your way. That said, the Wiktionary logo should probably also be changed to reflect your actual practice. --Ziusudra 16:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Etymology[edit]

Also, we use templates in the Etymology section that both link to Wikipedia and classify the word by etymological origin. See some of my changes to warden. However, I am not fully versed in how Etymologies are currently being formatted, and don't know all the needed templates. You might ask User:Atelaes or User:Widsith if you have questions about formatting an Etymology. Not all our current practices have been written down yet, since some of them are relatively new. --EncycloPetey 15:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)