Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives +/-


March 2015


How do you guys type all of these letters that are in other languages? Do you use the windows input on your keyboard?

When you edit a page, you can use the "special characters" dropdown above the edit text-box. Or you can use your operating system's character selector: in Windows, it's called "Character Map", and is available on the Start menu. Or you can add foreign languages to your operating system (in Windows: Control Panel, Region and Language), which might enable certain special features such as pop-up keyboards. Equinox 03:21, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

A simple answer is that I don't type "all" special letters, but only those used in some languages that I care about (Scandinavian, German, Russian). And for those languages I either have a good keyboard already, or I switch to other keyboard layouts in my operating system software. My physical keyboard has a Swedish layout with keys for ÅÄÖ. To reach the Danish/Norwegian ÆØ, Icelandic ÐÞ, and German ß i use the AltGr in combination with ÄÖDTS (which works fine under Linux). To type Russian/Cyrillic letters, I switch to a Russian keyboard layout. --LA2 (talk) 13:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

{{unk.}} again[edit]

Would it be possible to integrate the functioning of this slightly clunky template that continues to lack domcumentation into {{etyl}}? Just {{etyl|unk}} won't do (unk is a valid language code), but some other keyword might.

As has been noted before (see talk page), this is not quite the same as the currently existing functionality {{etyl|und}}. --Tropylium (talk) 01:05, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

{{etyl}} is meant specifically for indicating what language a word originates from; it stands for ETYmology Language. So I don't think it would be appropriate to make this change. —CodeCat 01:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Then the parameter name etyl lang in {{calque}} makes perfect sense: etymology language language.
I always thought etyl was an ugly contraction of ETYmoLogy.--Dixtosa (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
The possible origin of "etyl" as shorthand for "etymology language" is not an impediment to using it to say that the origin of a term is unknown. On the other hand, the fact that unk is the code of Enawené-Nawé might be an impediment: we could use a different keyword, as suggested, e.g. {{etyl|unk.}}, but I would expect people to forget and type {{etyl|unk}}. Already people forget to specify the right language as the second parameter when they add new {{etyl}}s or (especially) copy existing ones from e.g. an English section to some other language's section. - -sche (discuss) 19:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I like this idea, in particular because you could use the etyl syntax of {{etyl|unknown|<lang>}} and still add them to Category:Terms with unknown etymologies by language. JohnC5 19:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
We could also use {{etyl|?|...}}. But I still don't think we should be using this template for that. —CodeCat 20:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I like {{etyl|unknown}}. Just {{etyl|?}} seems too ambiguous between this and {{etyl|und}}.
I don't follow why this fusion would be objectionable; functionally, {{etyl}} is a template that exists for 1) linking the source language and 2) adding terms to etymological categories. {{unk.}} exists for the second job as well, while the first is in these cases unapplicable. Is there any way in which the functions of these actually clash?
— To be clear, I do not necessarily suggest that {{unk.}} should be entirely depreciated though, if there are people who want to still keep that around as well. --Tropylium (talk) 01:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Someone broke basic functionality again[edit]

Whoever caused WT:ACCEL to generate this bad plural entry (multicompetences), please fix it. Teach a man to fish, and all that. I won't correct "my" errors caused by others' bugs added to something previously working. Equinox 20:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Sorry, I fixed it. See its history for the problem. SemperBlotto (talk) 21:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    It's not fixed: what's this § in competences? Lmaltier (talk) 21:18, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    That appears to be a separate Mediawiki issue (feature?) DTLHS (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Nothing has changed. Still broken. Equinox 22:39, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
The Mediawiki devs added little "§" anchor links to all the headers, so that got the script confused. Fixed. --Yair rand (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for dropping by. DCDuring TALK 00:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

voseo vs vos in Template:es-verb form of/subtense-pronoun[edit]

Right now, the following:

{{es-verb form of/subtense-pronoun|person=second|number=singular|voseo=yes|formal=no}}

… displays …


Note that the template uses voseo, which is IMO wrong and inconsistent with other pronouns. voseo only refers to the use of vos as a pronoun, and is not the pronoun. In contrast, is shown rather than tuteo:

{{es-verb form of/subtense-pronoun|person=second|number=singular|voseo=no|formal=no}}

… displays …


Therefore I propose to change Template:es-verb_form_of/subtense-pronoun and friends to make this consistent, by changing voseo to vos in the output.

Timothy Gu (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:cy-noun behaving oddly[edit]

In this old revision of caer, the plural forms weren't showing up. Should the pl= parameter simply be abandoned and the documentation updated (in which case we need a bot to fix all examples) or can someone diagnose this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi. What's the news with all the Initialisms/Acronyms etc.? I believe we were phasing them out, but I can't find the page explaining it. So, I added a few initialisms and got error messages, which I ignored. What's the deal with them? --Type56op9 (talk) 11:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

We should not be adding any new headers: Abbreviation, Initialism, Acronym. We are supposed to have real parts of speech as headers. This often means more than one header is required instead of the to-be-replaced header. DCDuring TALK 11:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Right, I'll change them in the future. --Type56op9 (talk) 12:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

What Happened to Safari Notifications?[edit]

For a short time, Wiktionary was able to send (Echo?) notifications to OS X's Notification Center via Safari. That functionality now seems to have disappeared, but where did it go?
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Is that some Apple thing? Please explain how it worked and we might be able to explain what happened. Equinox 02:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't know the specifics, but, yes, I believe that what I'm referring to had to do with Apple's Push Notifications Service. Somebody here set Wiktionary up so that users could check a box in his or her preferences to have the wiki ping him or her via their device's Notification Center whenever he or she received an Echo notification on-wiki. That checkbox has now disappeared, and I'm wondering where it went and why the functionality that it enabled was disabled. It would be nice to get messages about new on-wiki information via Notification Center instead of through full-blown e-mails!
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 18:19, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, I don't know what "Echo notifications" are, and can't find much on Google, but perhaps you were somehow using the RSS newsfeed for the page? Equinox 22:04, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
'Echo' is the MediaWiki notifications extension. I remember reading somewhere on Wiktionary that somebody had hacked together some way to copy notifications from either Echo or some other on-wiki source and then send them to OS X's Notification Center. And I don't remember it was just for some specific page or not, but my memory could be playing tricks with me.
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 21:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
If you're wondering why I'm asking about this, then it's because I want something to reference when I go to Phabricator and file a 'request for enhancement' to include this functionality in more WMF wikis.
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Citations tab with template-preloaded redlink[edit]

I've noticed some IP edits from time to time where they left a citations page empty except for the kind of preloaded material you get when you create the Documentation page for a template I seem to remember someone had reported this before, but every time I checked an entry with no citations page, the redlink looked normal- so I thought it had been resolved.

Just now, I found an example: for the moment, anyway, Talk:হাঁ has the following URL on the Documents tab:


After checking a few other pages without Citations pages, I noticed a pattern: the redlink from the main entry has no preload, but the redlink from the Discussion tab has the preload parameter as above. I went to an entry I created today, clicked on the Discussion tab, looked at the preview for the empty page, and found that the discussion tab had the preload.

Can we fix this? Chuck Entz (talk) 21:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. --Yair rand (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I am the person who reported it before; so thanks! Equinox 21:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks!! Chuck Entz (talk) 23:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Latinx script[edit]

WT:Scripts claims that this exists "for characters in the Latin Extended-B Unicode block". Yet per WT:List of languages, it mainly seems to be in use for proto-languages. Plenty of languages that use Latin-B letters have just the plain Latn script code (e.g. Hausa, Livonian, !Kung, Vietnamese). Is something amiss here? --Tropylium (talk) 13:24, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Misbehaviour in Chrome[edit]

If I use Firefox & ΙΕ all is fine - but using Chrome gives the following problems (1) Languages tabs messed up (with that option chosen) (2) pull down tables - eg translations - don't work (and the "Visibility" item in the side menu is missing). I haven't changed any options on Chrome since this started happening.   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 21:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The same problem has just arisen while using Firefox. BUT clearing cookies has made it go away. I have been developing a template family (centered on {{el-conj-table-1a}}) which uses pull down tables - so guess this is the source of my problem - it starts after repeated testing/ using "show preview".   -   Has any one else encountered this problem?   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 08:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

solved' - "clearing cookies" in my browser solved this problem - presumably my repetitive views created a buildup of something - causing the problem.   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 16:24, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
I still have the problem with pull-down tables ["Show" is missing from the top-right corner]. For example, at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%CF%80%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B9 [σπίτι] the table under "Declension" does not have "Show" in the top-right corner. It works if I'm not logged into Wiktionary, but it stops working as soon as log in [and works again if I log out]. The Chrome console shows a number of warning messages in both scenarios; when I'm logged in [and pull-down tables don't work], though, I also get a couple of errors, which I can forward [how?] to whomever is interested. Clearing the cookies does not help. I'm on version 43.0.2357.65 of Chrome [the latest as of this writing], the 64-bit version. The same happens with IE 11 [32-bit version, I think], with same warning error messages in the console. Thanks.   -   User:Rgiuntoli 08:30 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Forget it, it turns out that it's a theme problem: Cologne Blue does not work as described above, whereas Vector (the default theme) always works. I'll see how else I can address this. Thanks :) ...   -   User:Rgiuntoli 08:50 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Greek adverb template[edit]

Is there an Ancient Greek adverb template? —BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Probably not - I would expect it to start "grc-adv...", and there seems to be nothing lised in Category:Ancient Greek headword-line templates   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 15:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Module Error at æschynite[edit]

This entry hasn't been edited since it was created in August, but it's had a module error for just the past week or so. It may have something to do edits by User:CodeCat to Module:headword on March 5, but the trail goes through {{fr-noun}} and Module:fr-headword before it reaches Module:headword where the error occurs. If it helps any, removing "?"as the second parameter gets rid of the error (before anyone launches any w:Henny Youngman doctor jokes at me: yes, {{fr-noun}} is supposed to be able to handle "?" as the second parameter). Chuck Entz (talk) 01:46, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:56, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! It actually took more time for me to post that than for you to make the fix.Chuck Entz (talk) 02:17, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


Is this page formatted and set up correctly?

This term is used, but it is mostly reserved in use by the gaming community. Even there, it is only found in use by a particular niche.

As such, I doubt this term meets our criteria for inclusion. Nevertheless, it is a term that I am fond of, so I thought that I would host it within my userspace.

If it ever does gain enough citations, please do let me know and we can arrange to move it into the mainspace.

However, for now, I just wanted to ask...

Is the page formatted correctly, set up as our pages normally would be? I'm not good with the templates here, so I need the opinion of an expert on that. I tried the best that I could, but I'm not sure if I messed up somewhere or if there was an easier way of doing something that I missed. Tharthan (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks okay to me, but I don't understand the definition. What sort of "perspective" are we talking about here; how can a perspective "enter" something? Equinox 14:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Blick Winkel is a term that seems to originate (though I can't tell if it originated in German as a secondary use of "Blickwinkel", or if it originated in English as an theoretics expansion upon the simple German "Blickwinkel") in the field of niche theoretics.
From what I can understand (though I myself do not engage in theoretics studies, so I could be missing some details here):

A Blick Winkel is the perspective of a being (or a being that is purely a perspective) that is able to cross interdimensional boundaries, jump into the consciousness of an individual from a given dimension, and perceive things from that individual's perspective. They are not bound to an individual, however, and if that individual dies, they do not die with them.

In the field of video games, the term is used to refer to the player of the game when that individual ends up becoming a sort of character themselves by way of a fourth wall not being present. Often, a Blick Winkel's presence is revealed near to, at, or after the climax of the game.
Does that explanation make sense? Tharthan (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
You missed the {{trans-mid}} inside the translation table. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC
Fixed. Thanks! Tharthan (talk) 17:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Another thing: use the templates {{etyl}} and {{m}}/{{term}} in the etymology, and {{en-noun}} in the HWL. You can get away with bare wikicode in the etymology, but the use of HWL templates is enforced much more strongly.
In case you did it because it’s a prototype: don’t worry, these templates recognise the namespace and won’t add categories to userpages. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

{{etyl}} use with same language variations[edit]

{{temp|etyl|grc|grc-koi}} outputs: {{etyl|grc|grc-koi}}

The template doesn't let the user differentiate within language families using the definitions found in Module:etymology language/data? WT:ETYM#Stages of Latin states that: "Further, it is useful to differentiate which stage of Latin a borrowing is from – Classical Latin (la), followed by Late Latin (written) (LL. 3rd c.–6th c.) and Vulgar Latin (spoken) (VL. 3rd c.–9th c.), Medieval Latin (ML. 6th c.–c. 1500), and New Latin (NL. c.1500–1900)." It should be the same for Greek. Nevertheless, Latin also has the same result,

{{temp|etyl|la|la-ecc}} outputs: {{etyl|la|la-ecc}}
{{temp|etyl|la-ecc|la-new}} outputs: {{etyl|la-ecc|la-new}}

BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

What does it mean exactly when a grc-koi word is borrowed from grc? The former is a variety included in the latter. It's like saying that an American English term was borrowed from English. —CodeCat 14:40, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I thought it was like an English etymology being: from Middle English, from Old English. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 17:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
But Middle English is not part of the language we call "English", it's a separate language. Koine Greek is part of Ancient Greek, and we don't treat Koine as a separate language. —CodeCat 18:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Then there really is no point in having Koine Greek defined as its own input language in the template either as it is just Ancient Greek. It makes no sense to use it as an input but not as an output to show a developed language. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:26, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
You can achieve the display, if not the categorization, by using {{etyl|grc|-}}, yielding Ancient Greek. We put up with this for Latin routinely. DCDuring TALK 19:31, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
BoBoMisiu, are you perhaps simply getting the order of the codes backwards in {{etyl}}? Module:etymology language/data is full of dialects which we find it expedient to admit that terms are derived from (so the codes can occur as the first parameter of {{etyl}}). The dialects are, however, handled under their parent languages' L2 header (so the codes cannot occur as the second parameter of {{etyl}}, as this parameter must be a code found in Module:languages, the module for languages which get their own L2 headers). See e.g. martyr (which uses {{etyl|grc|la}}). - -sche (discuss) 09:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
No, as you can see above ({{etyl|grc|grc-koi}}), the order is not backwards. My question was about showing progression within the variations, which may span over thousands of years, for example from Ancient Greek words combined several hundred years after they are attested into a new Koine Greek word. Reading through the module, I see that such detail is not possible. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 04:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
I just wrapped your templates in nowiki tags so that this page stops showing up in Category:Pages with module errors. Putting those template there was something like taking an appliance in for service and plugging it in to demonstrate how it emits toxic smoke and shorts out the wall outlet. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
You can actually subst module errors. If you do, then you can remove the module error category and leave only the text. —CodeCat 17:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Wow, I'll try to remember not to post templates that way next time. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Bug in the translation editor duplicating translations[edit]

I just spotted this edit: diff. Judging from the edit summary, the user did a balance; but instead of shifting the translation over, it duplicated it. —CodeCat 00:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Could this edit: diff have anything to do with it? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

User UPA[edit]

I'm considering starting a bundle of script templates for the w:Uralic Phonetic Alphabet, alongside Category:User IPA. Attempting to create these by reference to {{User script-1}} etc. throws up various module errors, though. Shall I request someone to massage the script modules, or to forgo meta-templating and just design the userboxes by hand? — There is also another minor error that could perhaps be better circumvented by the former route: the meta-templates seem to force a roman type for "icon" glyphs, while UPA is always used in italics. --Tropylium (talk) 01:13, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The errors appear because UPA isn't a valid script code. Should we have a separate script code for UPA? If we're going to be adding UPA in entries, we may need one. —CodeCat 01:34, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Active usage of detailed UPA is probably a bad idea, it mainly comes up with source material.
(Although, regardless, we have even e.g. some rather preposterous-looking UPA entries over at Category:Ter Sami lemmas and possibly other similar places.) --Tropylium (talk) 03:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Global User Pages[edit]

When I saw this user page (User:JenifferHomes), I wondered how this user got all of the user boxes then visible to show up, since none of them are allowed on Wiktionary. On closer examination, I discovered that Wikimedia has a relatively new feature that displays content from a centrally-located user page on local user pages for every wiki they edit.

If anyone runs into such a page in the future and needs to block display of Wiktionary-inappropriate content, all you need to do is create a user page with any content in it whatsoever: the global page won't display if there's already a local user page. In this case, I just put an html comment in it so I could save it as an empty page. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Why would this be helpful? Creating blank pages to suppress display of global user pages sounds very unproductive. Also, my understanding is that it's not just all wikis that they edit, it's all wikis, period. --Yair rand (talk) 06:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
It depends on the user page- I'm not saying we should do this in every case. Right now we have WT:USER, and the vote that's behind it, but people can get around it by moving everything to Mediawiki and not creating a user page here. This sets up a two-tier system: people with local user pages, who have to follow the rules, and people with global user pages, who don't. We should either repeal our restrictions on permissible user boxes and delete WT:USER, or disallow local display of global user pages that break the rules. Otherwise we're just making hypocrites of ourselves. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Raw linking text[edit]

Is there a template that will just return a string formatted for linking given a particular language? For instance, if I put {{template X|νεκῠ́οιῐν|lang=grc}}, it would return the string "νεκύοιιν". It seems like such a template should exist. —JohnC5 03:33, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Not {{l}}? DCDuring TALK 12:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
{{l}} will strip the superfluous diacritics from the link, but not the display: {{l|grc|νεκῠ́οιῐν}} links to νεκύοιιν but still displays νεκῠ́οιῐν (nekúoiin), which doesn't seem to be what JohnC5 wants. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


Would it be reasonable to give [[Category:Chinese terms needing attention|r]] its own category, like Category:zh-pron usage missing POS? It seems be the reason why the "Chinese terms needing attention" has so many pages in it. —umbreon126 08:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Are there implications for Wiktionary of user renaming?[edit]

Many user names are about to be changed as a result of single user login (SUL). If one of them were yours, you would already have been notified. But, an unknown number of those will be for users with significant numbers of contributions. I fear that we will lose a means of making a quick assessment of a contribution, based on our prior experience with a username. This is not as big a problem for pedias as for us, because of our higher ratio of articles to active admits or active white listed contributor. The SUL process cannot be stopped, but we could request reports to help us track problematic registered users and their contributions. Any thoughts? DCDuring TALK 22:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

JavaScript needs to encodeURIComponent cookies instead of escaping them[edit]

When storing cookies, MediaWiki:Gadget-legacy.js uses escape to encode their values. However, this function is deprecated and uses Latin-1 encoding to encode non-ASCII characters. When jquery.cookie.js tries to decode the cookie value, it uses decodeURIComponent which dies with an URIError when encountering such raw Latin-1 characters. This happened to me after the introduction of the “§” anchor links, which got stored in my cookie when they got mixed into the declension heading and I clicked “Show §declensions”. So now, JS is broken for me here on enwikt.

The gadget (and any other JS code) should use encodeURIComponent instead. (And decodeURIComponent instead of unescape.)

See phab:T93187.

--Mormegil (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Jquery cookies are automatically encoded/decoded using encodeURIComponent/decodeURIComponent. To avoid any issue, it is better to always use jQuery for cookies, instead of the deprecated functions in MediaWiki:Gadget-legacy.js. At least we should try to rewrite those functions to use jQuery cookies. — Dakdada 14:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:Q year= parameter[edit]

This parameter does not seem to work, as seen in the second quote on Iovem lapidem iurare. The transyear= parameter does apparently. Can we fix this? —JohnC5 20:27, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:l tr= parameter[edit]

Yet another question for the Pit. It seems that the tr= parameter in {{l}} does not work when it has to override the automatic transcription of some scripts. Gothic does not work (𐌳𐌿𐌱𐍉 (dūbō) should read "dūbō") nor polytonic (ἀνήρ (anḗr) should read "potato salad"). Devanagari does seem to work (नृ (nṛ́)). There are probably others in each category, but I haven't looked for them. Anyone know what the problem is here? —JohnC5 09:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It is not a problem, it is a good feature. Some scripts never need manual transliteration. Somewhere there is a list of such scripts, but I don't remember where. --Vahag (talk) 09:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
However, WT:Gothic transliteration states that vowel length in Gothic should be marked on u and a if known, and both common practice and {{got-decl-noun-table}} use l for this process. I admit I am hard pressed to think of when one mightneed to override the transliteration for AG, but for Gothic it is definitely necessary. —JohnC5 10:18, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, then Gothic might need to be removed from the override_manual_transliteration list. @ZxxZxxZ:, @CodeCat:, where did you hide that function? --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


No "~" parameter for {{enm-noun}}? —BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:16, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

French uncountable nouns[edit]

At choucroute, [{fr-noun|f|-}] gives a result that says the word is uncountable but still expects a plural form, and the term gets categorized into Category:French entries needing inflection. I assume there's something wrong at Module:fr-headword; could someone take a look? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. —CodeCat 15:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Dank je wel! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Though, actually, I think this particular French noun is countable. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:58, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
It's easy enough to get it to say "(countable or uncountable, plural choucroutes)". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Automatic Arabic transliteration[edit]

Does anyone know why the automatic Arabic transliteration isn't working in مُجَدَّرَة‎ (pockmarks) (see mujaddara#Etymology)? I'm pretty sure all the diacritics that are supposed to be there are present. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

A left-to-right mark, as usual. DTLHS (talk) 18:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Aha, a sneaky invisible character. Thanks for your help. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I recently made a WT:TODO list of entries which contained LTR and RTL marks. Someone could use it and/or make a fresh one, and remove all these marks by bot or at least by AWB. - -sche (discuss) 20:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Some people use them for formatting, so you might break some things. Can we add an edit filter for this? DTLHS (talk) 22:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Problem with {{quote-journal}}[edit]

The unambiguous page contains the following:

  1. clear, and having no uncertainty or ambiguity
    • 1965 July, Donald Knuth, “On the Translation of Languages from Left to Right”[1], Information and Control, volume 8, pages 639-707: 
      blah blah blah

Problem: there is a link after the title and on "pages 639-707". The link should only be on the title.

P.S. "pages=#-#" should display with an en dash between the numbers, like this: "pages #–#".

P.S.S. Why does "title=" display with fancy quotes in Wiktionary but not Wikipedia? ~User000name (talk) 04:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Language code frs is not valid[edit]

When is someone going to fix this? This problem has been persisting for days, and leads to 100+ entries in Category:Pages with module errors. Benwing (talk) 06:14, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

We consider East Frisian Low Saxon to be a dialect of German Low German, so any frs you encounter should be changed to nds-de. Unless it's being used mistakenly for Saterland Frisian (also called East Frisian), in which case it should be changed to stq. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
It's more complicated than that, or I would have fixed it by now, myself: East Frisian had several dialects, of which Saterland Frisian is the only survivor, but at least one other of which survived into the last century. Because no one was sure what frs was, until recently, it was pressed into service as the code for Frisian East Frisian. As far as I can tell, most of the uses of the frs code are neither Frisian Low Saxon nor Saterland Frisian, but were taken from reference works such as this one, in which the specific dialect of East Frisian isn't always specified. I've found and fixed a few cases where frs was really Saterland Frisian, but I've been hampered by lack of access to references on Frisian Low Saxon and limited usefulness of sources online for Saterland Frisian. I think we need to create an exception code for East Frisian, and swap it with all of these uses of frs, but mark them for attention so someone with access to the proper sources can sort through them later. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Alphabetical sorting of compounds where confix is used[edit]

There seems to be a problem here, probably with the template used. For example - Category:English words prefixed with thermo-. This isn't the only category where this happens of course, and I have even come across this problem in Norwegian. I think words where the affix template is used are also affected. Donnanz (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Test cases, arguments and page names for modules[edit]

How do I emulate arguments and page names for test cases in modules? Do I have to explicitly code the possibility for module arguments to override page names and template arguments for testing? --Njardarlogar (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

{{quote-us-patent}} broken and undocumented[edit]

There is no documentation for the template.

I find the patent, or application, in two locations

I read {{quote-us-patent}} source and follow to the nested {{reference-us-patent}} which redirects to {{R:US-patent}} which seems to be broken, unless if I am not adding the correct parameters. The parameters I used in {{quote-us-patent}} (which are not documented but read from {{R:US-patent}} source) are:

{{quote-us-patent|number=20090209499|type=|title=Apiary veterinary composition|passage=|date=2009-08-20|author=Gyula Orban|page=|url=}}


' 2009-08-20, Gyula Orban, Apiary veterinary composition, US 20090209499 (PDF version):

which has layout problem and broken linking. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 15:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

April 2015

Pashto adjectives[edit]

Hello :) I just want to say in Pashto adjectives their is no category of determining gender or number of an adjective the way that there exists with nouns. Pashto adjectives have 3 genders: 1. (Singular) Masculine e.g. سوړ [cold] 2. (Singular) Feminine e.g. سړه [cold] 3. Neuter [can be used with both Masculine + Feminine Nouns] e.g. ښه [good] Pashto Adjectives also changes number with with nouns: 1. Plural Masculine e.g. ساړه [cold] 2. Plural Feminine e.g. سړې [cold]

Is there anything that can be done about this. Thank You PashtoLover (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the problem actually is. What do you think should be done? —CodeCat 18:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I think PashtoLover is pointing out that we currently provide information on the gender and inflected forms of Pashto nouns but apparently not of adjectives (take a look at احمق and ارزان), even though adjectives also inflect based on masculine / feminine gender (sez Wikipedia, citing a book). - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


Could someone add a namespace check to the categories? We have a Beer Parlour page in Category:English terms with audio links. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Double archaics[edit]

Hey. If any bot fancies an easy search-and-replace job, there's a few entries here double-tagged as "archaic" "archaic" - for example these ones --Sucio green (talk) 11:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so that's what "hyperarchaic" means... Equinox 13:31, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
WF is right it's super easy. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

{{en-archaic second-person singular of}} is so restrictive. I think we should remove the call to {{cx}} from that template rather than remove cx from entries. --Dixtosa (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

It's supposed to be only used for archaic second-person singular forms, why wouldn't it be restrictive? Renard Migrant (talk) 17:17, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
@Dixtosa, Renard Migrant: What if some, but not all of these are deemed obsolete, literary, rare, or a combination of things? At the very least, the templates needs a means of suppressing the default label. DCDuring TALK 17:36, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Why not just use a different template, like {{form of|literary second-person singular}}? Renard Migrant (talk) 17:37, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
One reason would be that one might hope to use existing knowledge of more general templates rather than ones that were custom to a narrow set of applications. I don't have a problems with a bot coming in a converting them to a more specific template, though I would hope it could be done without leaving 6,000 mistaken entries, ie, the case at hand. DCDuring TALK 23:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Missing forms[edit]

Modifying Module:en-headword, I reckon we could find thousands of missing English plurals, adjective and verb forms. --Sucio green (talk) 10:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

How to stop AWB following redirects[edit]

I would like to use AutoWikiBrowser to replace category directs like Category:Jèrriais auxiliary verbs with {{movecat|Norman auxiliary verbs}}. It's not very hard to do using regexes however, AWB keeps following the direct and tries to edit Category:Norman auxiliary verbs which isn't the category which needs movecat! How do I stop it doing this?

PS see {{movecat/documentation}} for why is a good idea, it categorizes in Category:Category redirects which are not empty which is very useful when trying to track down remaining entries. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:10, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


Can someone look at Template:es-adv? The template automatically qualifies all adverbs as being uncomparable, but some are of course comparable (like rápidamente) but there doesn't seem to be a way of showing that. --Recónditos (talk) 09:41, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I can't edit it, but I'd go from switch to if. Better to use if when only two possibilities. You're right that it claims the default is comparable but it's the opposite; the code for the default is wrong. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:16, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

currently: not comparable
should be:comparable
error: {{#switch:{{{comp|}}}|n|-|=not comparable|#default=comparable}} --Dixtosa (talk) 18:07, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

{{head}} is linking wrong[edit]

It doesn't recognise that : (colon) and (apostrophe), among other punctuation marks, are used as letters in various Amerindian orthographies, and is therefore trying to link the constituents. For example, see the headline of the Han entry tsà’. Can anyone fix the template? It's rather important if we want to even be able to use {{head}} for a large number of languages. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:00, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Ideally we shouldn't be using punctuation characters as letters, we should be using their "modifier letter" equivalents (e.g. ʼ instead of or ' and instead of :), so tsà’ should be moved to tsàʼ. In the meantime, though, the easiest way to fix it would be to just add |head=tsà’ to force the template to recognize the whole string as the headword. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Ideally? Ideally we should use whatever characters people who write in the language in question actually use, not more obscure Unicode offerings (or soft redirects when the two forms are noticeably different but one is considered nonstandard, like using 1 for the palochka). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Hän has about 10 elderly speakers left; I strongly doubt any of them has ever written Hän on a computer. But even for better attested languages your suggestion seems like a very bad idea. We'd have to make entries for things like English don`t and Italian citta' and German muessen and l as a variant spelling of 1 and all sorts of monstrosities people commit when they don't know or care about proper typographic style. The whole reason ʼ exists as a separate Unicode point at all is for cases like this: when a language has something that looks like Apostrophe.svg but functions as a letter rather than as a punctuation mark. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
@Angr: Firstly, I said "people who write in the language", not speakers; for Hän, that principally means linguists who have described it. More importantly, you seem to be missing the fact that we are descriptivist, not prescriptivist. In fact, since you know German, I urge you to create the entry for meussen, because I checked Google Books and it passes CFI. You may personally think of it as a monstrosity, but people use it, and it therefore qualifies as an entry, presumably as a kind of soft redirect. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Even the linguists who have described it have certainly mostly either written it by hand or by typewriter, and even written by computer, once it's printed out you can't tell the difference between ʼ and ’. That's why the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument is a red herring: as far as human beings are concerned there's no difference between tsà’ and tsàʼ. Only the software knows the difference, and there's nothing "prescriptivist" about using the character the software will treat correctly. We really shouldn't be using the curly apostrophe ’ in entries at all, because we've decided to use the typewriter apostrophe ' for the punctuation mark (e.g. don't), and the modifier letter ʼ should be used in any instance, in any language, where it functions as a letter. The curly apostrophe should only be used in hard redirects like don’tdon't (and, in theory, ajaa’ajaaʼ though I don't know if we have any such redirects in practice). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Angr that the "descriptive vs prescriptive" argument is largely misplaced. If the documents we are citing words from are printed, we can't tell (unless we have the electronic copies they were printed from) whether they use the punctuation codepoint or the letter codepoint, and we should assume they used the codepoint the software treats correctly. If the documents are typewritten or handwritten, no codepoint was used; it's up to us to decide which one best represents the type-/handwritten letter, and we should use the codepoint the software treats correctly. Only if we are dealing with durably archived electronic media that unambiguously use the punctuation codepoints should we have entries to cover that, and even then, it may be sufficient for those entries to be hard or soft redirects: compare and cafe' (see Talk:cafe'). Muessen is an entirely different kind of thing and should have an entry using Template:de-umlautless spelling of like fuer. Don`t could, I hope, be handled by whatever auto-redirect gadget handles long s. - -sche (discuss) 21:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Proper categories for borrowed English first names in Chinese[edit]

Please suggest/fix categorisation for entries like 阿道夫 (Adolph, Adolf) and 艾麗絲艾丽丝 (Alice). Category:zh:English female given names has an error. There's a bunch of proper noun entries in need of conversion to the new Chinese format, which are all surnames or first names here: Category:Mandarin proper nouns in simplified script. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz:. Thanks! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome. The problem was that name categories aren't topical categories, so you can't have "zh:". I've created all the categories and parent categories needed for the two entries. I think you can figure out the rest for other languages. The parent categories use {{poscatboiler}}, but "derived from" name categories don't have a template, that I know of, so I just put:
[[Category:Chinese male given names]]
[[Category:Chinese terms derived from English]]
[[Category:Chinese female given names]]
[[Category:Chinese terms derived from English]]
When creating a parallel category for another language, just change the language name, and you've got it. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks again. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:53, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Rukhabot and interwikis[edit]

Rukhabot hasn't worked for nearly three months and User:Ruakh seems out of reach. What's happening with interwikis? Any other bots? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:55, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It's running now.
Are there any more-active Wiktionarians who know (and like) Perl and would be interested in taking over the bot?
RuakhTALK 15:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't have experience running a bot, but know (and don't mind) Perl. Jberkel (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
@Ruakh: Thank you and welcome back. :)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:55, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
@MalafayaBot:? Renard Migrant (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Why don't we have the wikidata support?Dixtosa (talk) 20:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This question has come up many times: the short answer- interwiki politics. Wikidata wants to do what they see as a comprehensive solution rather than the obvious, straightforward solution that we would prefer. There's also some nitpicking about different apostrophes used by different wiktionaries, and that sort of thing. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
I do not understand. How can Wikipedia be more structured than us? Actually, the opposite is true: Wikipedia is looser, more general, for example an article in X wiki can be a section on Y wiki;
There is one concept -> one entry in Wikidata; One word -> one entry in Wikidata.
The only situation when Wikidata will not be of any use is if X and Y wiktionaries have different interwikis. Does this happen?--Dixtosa (talk) 20:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Just in case anyone's interested. phabricatorT987--Dixtosa (talk) 13:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


Well, removing wikimedia's one of the ids (talking about p-cactions) is really not a clever idea. Some userscripts depend on it.

Also, the id ca-watch is not present if the current page is watchlisted. So, please, change it to

jQuery(function( $ ) {
	var links = jQuery("#p-cactions li").remove();

--Dixtosa (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Seriously.--Dixtosa (talk) 13:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


Is nobody willing to run an auto-format bot? Category: Requests for autoformat is running into the tens of thousands now. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Template:obsolete spelling of[edit]

{{obsolete spelling of}} does not provide automatic categorization, i.e. Category:English obsolete terms or Category:English obsolete forms. @-sche: pointed out that using {{term-context|obsolete|lang=en}}, since the term is obsolete, with {{obsolete spelling of}} produces visual double-labelling in the entry. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

It does automatically categorize in Category:English obsolete forms (or the corresponding other-language categories) if people remember to set lang=. (Otherwise, it categorizes into the hidden cleanup category Category:Language code missing/form of.) - -sche (discuss) 17:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
@-sche: TVM —BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:15, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Synonym of[edit]

The template {{synonym of}} complains if I omit or misspell the lang= parameter. But if I spell it correctly it ignores it. Is this deliberate? SemperBlotto (talk) 15:18, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

No it does not ignore it. It creates a proper link (e.g. #Italian) using the langcode. Dixtosa (talk) 16:17, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
OK. I had not noticed that. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2015 (UTC)


For some reason, I can't edit ad though I can edit the larger a. I'm trying to correct the fault header in Old French 'Preposition' for the verb form of avoir, but I can't do it. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably an ad blocker. Someone else asked this recently. —CodeCat 18:31, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that happened to me too until I went to ad, then clicked on the AdBlockerPlus icon in my menu bar and selected "Disable on this page only". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes that's done it. Very odd though! Renard Migrant (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
It's kind of amusing, if you think about it. The adblocker doesn't know the difference between an ad and a mention of the word ad. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Maybe they should change the name to "Ad"BlockerPlus... Chuck Entz (talk) 21:21, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
I posted this as an issue on an adblockplus.org/forum/.... —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
A stop gap measure is to add this custom filter wiktionary.org#@#.page-ad (see here), I think it will get added to the affecting filter list eventually. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


Could template {{quote-book}} be made to have a line and a lines parameter? Not all texts are in page form, such as epic poems. Also line and lines need to be separate to avoid things like lines 21 and line 21-24, which are both wrong. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Internoob/Sandbox is Template:quote-book/source with line= and lines= parameters. Look good? —Internoob 23:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
@Renard Migrant: This shows how User:Internoob/Sandbox works. —Internoob 17:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
This parameter is a useful feature. I hope it will be added to all the templates in the quote- family – poems and such are found everywhere. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 13:42, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

List entries from a category and all its subcats[edit]

Today I needed some lists of male and female given names. However, Category:English male given names is split into subcategories (from Hebrew, from Arabic, etc.) and it does not seem possible to view all names from all of those categories in a single list. That's a pity. The same applies to e.g. animals, where they are split into subcats by mammal, reptile, and so on. I can imagine users wanting complete lists of things and sub-things, so we should think about somehow implementing a mechanism to do this. Equinox 10:05, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Good idea. I hope it can be done in real time for all categories that have subcategories, but we could do dump-processing to generate selected lists of that kind. DCDuring TALK 13:18, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Abbreviation in Russian[edit]

It seems that there's an issue in the Russian abbreviation entries. It doesn't have its own headword-line template. See also Talk:прил.. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:36, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

"Abbreviation" is no longer considered a valid part of speech. If, as in this case, the term abbreviated is a noun, then the POS should be ===Noun===, not ===Abbreviation===. This is true for all languages, not just Russian. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:49, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
This might be late, but really thank you for this piece of info. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Serious help needed with this template[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Information desk/2015/April.

I am currently working on Pashto conjugations, declensions and adding word + categories. Making templates was easy for me until this: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Template:ps-conj-simp-irregular-w/o-peculiar3rdperson I entered the code normally but somehow it is not appearing correctly. Can someone please help Adjutor101 (talk) 16:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC) Solved by Dixtosa Adjutor101 (talk) 16:40, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Vowel lengthening doesn't work in ru-IPA?[edit]

Based on гении, the IPA of this word appears to have "ɪɪ", but I think it should be like "ɪː". I know that gemination (gem=y) is for consonants and that's it. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:53, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I prefer [ˈɡʲenʲɪɪ]. You can think of double vowels in Russian both ways - long or duplicated. To my ear, there are no long vowels in Russian, just their duplications. I also pronounce коопера́ция (kooperácija) as [kəəpʲɪˈrat͡sɨjə], not [kəːpʲɪˈrat͡sɨjə] but "ː" is commonly used in such cases. To be honest, I don't know why. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:13, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
That's an interesting way of seeing this. I think it's because Russian doesn't lengthen its vowels. I still prefer using [ː] because [ɪɪ] might give an impression like [ɪʔɪ], and this might be because my first language is Korean. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 14:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
There's really a very simple test for this. Is it two syllables or one? —CodeCat 15:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
I think it's two syllables, although there may not be a /ʔ/ sound between them or just a very slight one. Note that stressed double vowels get the second vowel stressed, e.g. Авраа́м IPA(key): [ɐvrɐˈam]. There's no difference in pronunciation of "по оши́бке" ("in error") or "коали́ция" - as [-əɐ-]. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 15:21, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps [ɪ] is the only unstressed near-closed vowel that can be placed together twice like [ɪɪ]. I never heard of [ʊʊ] in Russian, unless if it's in a rare loanword. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 02:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
The same will happen with two "уу" in a row, e.g. "Суунду́к", a small river in Russia (yes, it's a borrowing): [sʊʊnˈduk] If they are on a stressed syllable, then they would be [ʊˈu] but I don't remember such an example. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:19, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
But now, I agree with you: there are no long vowels in Russian, just duplication. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 10:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

How should templates handle parameters in a sequence?[edit]

We have quite a few templates that have a parameter that is really an infinitely long set of parameters. For example, {{head}} has head=, head2=, head3= and so on, and also g=, g2=, g3= etc. Thanks to Lua, there really is no limit to how many we can specify. But it's possible that there are "holes" in the series, like {{head|...|g=m|g3=f}} or {{head|...|head2=foo}}. It's not clear how templates should handle these cases, and different templates have different approaches. So I am wondering what we should do here.

The simplest approach, which most templates use currently, is to start at number 1 and advance until you come upon an empty value and stop there. This would mean that {{head|...|g=m|g3=f}} would be equivalent to {{head|...|g=m}}; the g3= parameter would be ignored because g2= is missing. A possible modification could be to include parameters that are specified but left empty. Then {{head|...|g=m|g3=f}} would still read only g= but {{head|...|g=m|g2=|g3=f}} would read all three. Even so, it's still not ideal.

A more advanced approach would be to go through the list of all the provided arguments, and make a list of all g*= parameters first, then sort them. Then read the parameters in the sorted order. This method will read {{head|...|g=m|g3=f}} correctly. The downside is that it's slower, because you have to go through all the parameters first and compile a list, and sorting takes a bit of time too.

It could be argued that skipping a number is an error, so the template shouldn't make any effort to correct it. This is true, but it's highly desirable to be able to specify xx3= while leaving xx2= empty, especially when it comes to templates that directly pass arguments to modules or other templates. So how should this be done? Maybe someone else knows a more effective way to do it? —CodeCat 16:38, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

You cant sort g* because you might get g1 g10 g11 .. g2. If splitting all given parameters by name and number is OK then this is probably a decent possibility: (pseudocode)
 for k, v in parentargs
  args[k] = v
  name, num = split k
  while num != 0
   if args[num] == nil:
       args[num] = "<this is skipped>"
   else: break
The result is that all g*'s that are between non-nil g's wil be filled with "<this is skipped>".
It might seem a horrible O(N^2) algorithm, but it is not. It is a linear solution. Even more specifically, every args[] will be accessed only twice (one read one write at most).
But I still doubt this will be any better than old-school while loop with the upper bound being inefficiently-looking number like 50 xD. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:36, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
With your solution, you'd still have to have another pass to remove all elements that read "this is skipped" afterwards. —CodeCat 17:45, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

May 2015

Two issues with Japanese entries[edit]

(copied from User talk:Eirikr)

I got two issues with Japanese entries today

  1. 十七 doesn't display an additional reading - "じゅうなな"
  2. 稟告's kanji categories are not correctly generated. I made manual ones but they are empty - Category:Japanese terms spelled with 稟 read as ひん and Category:Japanese terms spelled with 稟 read as りん. Any help is appreciated. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:08, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
十七: Is this good? (it's truly awful how templates can be so sensitive to whitespace :'D) —umbreon126 01:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
稟告: The same code works on other pages (I tested 隣国) so perhaps it has to do with the page name? (Maybe the "Jinmeiyō" designation for 稟?) —umbreon126 01:34, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Yep I think it has something to do with the "Jinmeiyō" part because 喋喋 and 蜜柑 act different too —umbreon126 01:38, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the fix on 十七! I have no idea about the other problem. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:18, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
It's because they're jinmeiyō, because the module doesn't make those readings subcategories for kanji not taught in secondary schools. Probably I should have mentioned that in the doc. If people want to change the behavior there are maybe three choices:
  1. allow kanji manually as needed -- the code already does that for a some kanji. The exceptions are the string "厭昌之芽昌浩智晃淳敦聡晃旭亮"... at Module:ja-kanjitab. Copying and pasting kanji into that string will make the categories appear.
  2. remove a few lines of code that do (1) and make readings subcategories for every kanji
  3. (I'm 99% sure this is possible but haven't done it before) add the category link only when the category already exists, that is, fall back on the higher category in case of redlink --Haplogy () 07:42, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

cx template not putting comma after 'literally'. See abaisser.[edit]

I don't believe this is intended? At the moment it says 'literally transitive' which baffled me in the beginning as I interpreted 'literally' as a modifier for 'transitive' - literally transitive as opposed to.. what? So if anyone could put a comma after 'literally' in the template, that'll be great :0. JamesjiaoTC 21:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

This could be an easy fix, but there are likely some entries that were written to rely on the lack of a comma. For those, inserting a comma would make things look off. So I'm not sure what could be done here? —CodeCat 22:32, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Someone could check a current database dump (I don't have time to download one at the moment) to see which pages use "literally" followed by another context label. If feasible, they could flip through all the pages with AWB to see which, if any, relied on the absence of a comma. Motherfucker, for instance, would benefit from a comma, as would abstract — it currently displays "literally figuratively"! - -sche (discuss) 05:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
"I literally walked to the bus stop." Renard Migrant (talk) 09:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
You didn't literally put that in a context label, though, did you? - -sche (discuss) 14:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
No it just made me smile. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:25, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


How the bloody hell do you create these? {{topic cat/documentation}} points to Module:category tree and Module:category tree/topic cat, but I can't find parameters for individual topical categories in either of these. So where are they? Renard Migrant (talk) 09:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Shortcut: go to a category of the same type, click on the "edit" link at the end of the description, and you'll find yourself at the data sub-sub-sub module for that category, in edit mode. I usually copypaste one of the other sections into the appropriate place in the alphabetical order and replace all the content- that way I don't have to worry about getting the picky details of the syntax right. The only really tricky part is choosing the right category to start from, and the right parent. In this case, Category:Pedophilia is under Category:Sex, so I would start from Category:en:Pedophilia (defined in Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Sex) and make "sex" the primary parent (you only get two parents: the primary and the secondary).
That said, I wouldn't create the category at all, because it's redundant to Category:en:Philias. Better to just remove it from the entry and tag the category for deletion. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Redundant? So Japanophilia is a paraphilia, then? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Given that our sole definition of the countable sense of philia is "a psychological disorder characterized by an irrational favorable disposition towards something", I'd say Japanophilia isn't a philia at all, let alone a paraphilia. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:41, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, this looks like it's turned into a mirror of Category:English words suffixed with -philia. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
By redundant, I mean that all of the entries in Category:en:Paraphilias are already in Category:en:Philias. I suppose there's some benefit to having it in the tree under Category:en:Sex, so you may be right to create it. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:52, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
There's no limit to how many parents you can have actually. But the first one is the primary parent, it's the one used in the breadcrumb list at the top. —CodeCat 13:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
(not strictly on topic) Category:en:Philias seems to have turned into Category:English words suffixed with -philia. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
It's too tough for me, I'll leave it to the experts. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:51, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Language codes mhr not valid[edit]

In holy, the Mari language code mhr (Eastern Mari) produced this error:

Mari: Lua error in Module:translations at line 40: The language code "mhr" is not valid.

I tried it again and got this:

Lua error in Module:languages/templates at line 28: The language code 'mhr' is not valid.: Lua error in Module:parameters at line 41: The parameter "<strong class" does not exist. —Stephen (Talk) 06:47, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
"mhr" is merged with "chm" (Mari). Eastern Mari is the most common and the standard variety of Mari, when referring to Mari, people usually mean Eastern or Meadow Mari. "mrj" is still the code for Western or Hill Mari. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The ISO/Ethnologue in effect gave Eastern Mari two codes, and we decided to use chm rather than mhr, so the solution for Eastern Mari (aka standard Mari) is to switch from writing "mhr" to writing "chm". See Wiktionary:Language treatment and the two discussions it links to, Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2013/September#Merging_Mari_and_Buryat_varieties and Wiktionary:Language treatment/Discussions#Merging_Buryat_dialects.3B_also.2C_merging_Mari_dialects. mrj should be working for Western Mari, and for me it is. Hmm... - -sche (discuss) 06:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
It would be great if someone could add automatic conversion, like with Serbo-Croations varieties - type "bs" - get "sh". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:34, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Do you mean that the code is automatically changed on saving the page? I don't think that's possible at all. If you mean that the codes are simply synonyms, that is more feasible but only if all uses of that code are passed through Module:languages. So if there is a template that uses, for example, {{{lang}}} instead of {{#invoke:languages/templates|getByCode|{{{lang}}}|getCode}}, then things won't work right. Likewise, modules would need to always retrieve the code through the :getCode() method of languages, and never directly from the parameter. —CodeCat 21:06, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I meant (currently) line 2,491 in User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js starting "var clean = ...". It seems simple, I might add it later when it's the right side of midnight. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 15:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

What is the i=1 parameter added to external links?[edit]

For example, {{specieslite|Nosema|i=1}}, (diff).

It does nothing at all, it seems. —CodeCat 21:07, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Hmm. Thank you. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
It would have the side-effect of causing Module:parameters to generate a module error if any of those templates were converted to use it, though. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:21, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
We should have the ability to selectively italicize the display in the project links. I come across this for taxonomic names for which entries have links to pedia, species, and commons. I mentioned the matter in Template talk:pedia, apparently not watched by anyone capable and desirous of making the changes required. DCDuring TALK 11:44, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
There is ''{{pedia}}''. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:50, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

topic cat TOC tweaks[edit]

The standard category "List of topics" should never have anything but English category names in it, and the names in the language-specific versions are all prefixed by the language code. For example, what's the point of even having a TOC for Category:ru:List of topics, when there are no Cyrillic-initialed category contents for the Cyrillic TOC to link to? Would it be possible to always use an English TOC in the language-specific lists of topics, and to strip the language-code prefix for that TOC?

As for the TOC for "All topics": it has the same issue, but the solution is different- only Category:All topics needs one. All the language-specific ones have fewer than the 200 members needed to go to multiple pages, so the TOC should be suppressed for those. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:33, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This is really a wider problem for categories that contain other categories. Entry names are in the current language, but category names are in English regardless. What should be done for categories that contain both? It's possible for modules to tell whether a category contains entries, categories or both (via mw.site.stats.pagesInCategory), so the module could in theory be made to test for this and select the TOCs appropriately. But I have found that this causes some slowdown, especially because it presumably means this function has to retrieve a list of everything in the category and then count. There was originally code in Module:category tree to include a "large" TOC when the category contains more than a threshold number of pages, but this was removed some time ago because of that slowdown. —CodeCat 21:47, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's part of a broader problem, but the narrower problem doesn't have the implementation barriers of the broader one. Why not fix what we can fix, and maybe someday replace this fix with a better one when it becomes available? Chuck Entz (talk) 22:25, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
But how would the narrower problem be fixed? Are you suggesting a hack for "List of Topics" alone, that might well take more effort to implement than the full fix? —CodeCat 23:05, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Here's another thought: category tree has the following line:
local isEmpty = mw.site.stats.pagesInCategory(mw.title.getCurrentTitle().text, "all") == 0
How much performance difference would there be if you took out the second parameter and saved the resulting table, then set isEmpty based on whether all the counts were zero? It seems to me like a lot of the expensive part of the function would be shared by the different counts, not duplicated. I'm sure running the function once- even with all the bells and whistles- would take less time than running it twice, as you did before. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:25, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
That's a good idea. Do you want to try it? —CodeCat 23:33, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be worth trying, but I'm better at reading Lua than writing it, so I'd rather not do the code myself. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:45, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
If a flag were added that category tree subtemplates could set for subcategory-only categories, it would allow tracking of non-categories to such categories in the same way empty categories are tracked. There are probably other uses, as well. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:29, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Semicolons in Template:label[edit]

I think semicolons would improve the intelligibility of context labels in a small number of entries like Billett where it's necessary to note that a term has multiple levels of rareness or currency vs archaicity in multiple regions. I suggest modifying Template:label et al. to accepted ";" as a parameter similar to "or", in that it suppresses the usual comma and displays a semicolon instead (which, unlike "or", won't be separated from the previous label by a space). I would like to type {{lb|de|current in|_|Switzerland|Belgium|Luxembourg|;|archaic in|_|Austria|;|dated|_|elsewhere}} and get (current in Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg; archaic in Austria; dated elsewhere). Drawback: the semicolon might be overused (e.g. people might type "archaic|;|rare" where just "archaic|rare" would be sufficient). - -sche (discuss) 22:19, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Template:User lang-x's to show languages' canonical names[edit]

Template talk:User lang--Dixtosa (talk) 07:33, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Archiving done wrong[edit]

I've noticed that people just copy and paste. That is horrible and does not preserve the history. Why don't you just move it?--Dixtosa (talk) 16:41, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

gd-noun, plurals and genitives[edit]

I am working on adding Gaelic names of fauna. Some of the bees I am adding have long compound names like "seillean càrdair nan lurgann dearg", which is a "red-shanked carder bee" (Bombus ruderarius). I am not sure of the genitive in these cases, so I don't want to include a genitive clause, but I do know the plural. When I try to include the plural form of this creature's name (seilleanan càrdair nan lurgann dearg) in {{gd-noun}}, the plural will not display.

After some rudimentary testing, I have determined that if the genitive case is empty, {{gd-noun}} will not display the plural regardless of whether the genitive tag is included. E.g. "xyz" will not be displayed in either of these cases: {{gd-noun|gen=|g=m|pl=xyz}} or {{gd-noun|g=m|pl=xyz}}. When the genitive value is not NULL/NIL, the plural is always displayed. A few of the existing examples are: seillean càrdair cumanta, seillean càrdair nan lurgann dearg and seillean-mòr a' bhlàir-fhraoich.

Having looked briefly at the code, and not wanting to break any of the 5,443 existing Gaelic nouns, I bring this issue here rather than try to solve it on my own.

Can/would anyone help me? Thanks in advance. Kibi78704 (talk) 19:59, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I will look into fixing it, but it will take a while as it's quite a jumble. —CodeCat 20:01, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
@Kibi78704: I've rearranged a lot of the code, hopefully it's all good now. —CodeCat 22:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: Thank you SO much! I have not had a chance to look at it yet, but I am grateful for the time you spent on it! Kibi78704 (talk) 23:07, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Burmese script font troubles[edit]

The diacritics in Burmese font aren't all showing up over the correct letter for me, but some are instead turning up as individual characters above a dotted circle. Assuming that one of our Mymr fonts was not performing the character compositions correctly, I checked them all individually by removing one font at a time from Mediawiki:Common.css, and then clicking 'Hard purge' on အငြိမ့် (where the C-shaped diacritic on the last character is not on top of the last letter). I didn't succeed in removing the problem, so I'm really unsure of what to do now. @Angr, -sche, CodeCat. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:16, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

It displays right for me, so it's not a problem at Wiktionary's end. It sounds like your font might be having an issue with the ordering of the two diacritics and . What do the following look like for you?
အငြိမ့် ( before )
အငြိမ့် ( before )
I think that the first one is the canonically correct order, but I also think our software should automatically correct the order if it's entered wrong (which is why I had to use HTML entities above to show the difference). But maybe that's what's going wrong for you? At any rate, both of the above display correctly for me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Both display fine for me as well, just as pagetitles do. We've had the issue before where we were specifying fonts that were faulty and then used by browsers, so I thought that would be it. The thing is, we should be able to display everything correctly regardless of user-end font specs. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:03, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
If they display fine for you, what isn't displaying right? Burmese fonts are always a little wonky. On Firefox, Burmese only displays correctly for me if it's inside a tag like {{l}}, {{lang}}, {{m}}, or {{t}}. If it's not inside a tag, I get boxes (including in the edit window and in page titles). In Chrome, on the other hand, Burmese displays right for me everywhere except browser tabs. And this is on the same computer with the same fonts installed. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:07, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Bot request: replace r with ɹ inside IPA and rhymes[edit]

Um, yeah. Replace r with ɹ inside IPA and rhymes if and only if the language statement is en. Any questions? I'll remind you (before someone asks), that ɹ rather than r is recommended by a vote. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:19, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Bihari language not recognised by the software[edit]

There is an error on भूगोल, and I did some tracing to find out why it happens. It seems to come down to this code in Module:wikimedia languages: mw.language.isKnownLanguageTag(code). When given "bh" as the code, this function returns false. But this is strange, because there is, in fact, a Bihari Wikipedia: //bh.wikipedia.org/ . So why is this function saying that the software doesn't recognise the code? —CodeCat 12:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

[2]. They forgot to rename the wiki xD.--Dixtosa (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
But we're using "bh" as the code for Bihari in Wiktionary as well. Should that be changed? —CodeCat 14:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Yup I guess as it not a single language. P.S. the default language is bho on bh.wiki. --Dixtosa (talk) 15:11, 15 May 2015 (UTC)


Why doesn't {{deftempboiler}} have an {{{id}}} to discriminate a particular {{senseid}} target in the same way {{l}} does? —BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:55, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

It's an old template, written before senseids were introduced. It should probably be converted to Lua at some point and brought up to date, along with other templates. —CodeCat 15:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Someone accidentally fudged en-noun[edit]

clockpunk headword: clockpunk (plural [Term?]) (code is {{en-noun|~}}). Also adds Category:English term requests. Not sure if {{en-noun}} is the culprit or it's Module:en-headword. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Revert 'em all. DCDuring TALK 17:47, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Fixed now. —CodeCat 17:49, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Principal namespace isn't a sandbox.
Do we need some kind of test rig that behaves like principal namespace? Or should the basic practice of duplicating entire template and module trees under different names be insisted upon? DCDuring TALK 17:47, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
No, unit tests are enough. Creating thorough tests (like this) is tiresome but worthy. Note one can check if the change causes any errors using the "show preview" button without saving it first. --Dixtosa (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
For template/Lua editors: Please note the existence of both the "Preview page with this template" box on the edit screen, and Special:TemplateSandbox. --Yair rand (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm aware of this and I did preview it, but this was a use case I apparently missed. —CodeCat 01:37, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Oh well. As Mao('s translators) wrote: "You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs." DCDuring TALK 02:29, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
In fairness sometimes you just screw up. The difference is, on a single page you can revert in second, with a template used thousands of times it takes a lot longer for the server to catch up. Though I'm surprised nobody spotted it before I did. Something like {{en-noun/test}} where you start with a verbatim copy of en-noun then modify it and try it on a page. In fact you can see that en-noun/test has previously existed and been deleted (as it should be when not in use). Renard Migrant (talk) 17:24, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Reduplication template?[edit]

We have Category:Reduplications by language, but AFAICT we don't have any template that categorizes into it. Could someone please make a template {{reduplication}} to be used in etymology sections (not a definition-line form-of template, though, which is why it probably shouldn't be called {{reduplication of}}) that will categorize terms into the language's reduplication category? I could do it myself the old-fashioned way, but I suppose it really ought to invoke Module:category tree or something, and I don't know how to do that. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

If you make it the old fashioned way, I can check it and fix things up if you like? —CodeCat 14:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Will you fix this up too? You can see how it is going to be used here and how contributors were immensely delighted about the proposal here. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I've done that now. —CodeCat 17:35, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
OK, old-fashioned template is at User:Angr/Template:reduplication. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:18, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Done. It appears that this template takes the exact same parameters as {{m}}, so there is a further optimisation I could apply. The template could invoke the module used by {{m}} directly rather than calling the template as an intermediate. —CodeCat 21:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, the way you rewrote it. I had intended the syntax to be {{reduplication|jaw|lang=en}}, but your syntax is {{reduplication|en|jaw}} which is indeed just like {{m}}. I think my way is a little more intuitive; it has the same syntax as other etymology templates like {{clipping}}. In fact, I'd like it to take all the parameters that {{clipping}} does. And I'm also thinking about whether it should take a parameter specifying the type of reduplication: total reduplication (e.g. jaw-jaw), rhyming reduplication (e.g. jeepers creepers), alliterating reduplication (e.g. jibber-jabber), and so on. Maybe this is something to discuss at ES before taking the template live. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:01, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I think lang= is more cumbersome than using the first parameter. And I'm not a fan of making templates default to English either. There is also clearly a tendency towards making templates work this way; {{m}}, {{label}} and {{ux}} were all created as alternatives/replacements for {{term}}, {{context}} and {{usex}}, and {{topic cat}} was also converted to this format years ago. So I think all new templates should be created this way. —CodeCat 22:17, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I suppose it's a matter of what we expect and what we expect other people to expect. I've gotten used to the syntax of {{m}}, {{lb}}, and {{ux}}, but in general I expect templates to take a lang= parameter and I'm always having to go back and correct my syntax when I use something like {{prefixsee}} or {{phrasebook}}, because I expect them to take lang= and they don't. Anyway, I don't suppose it's a huge deal, but I do think things like nocap=, nodot=, gloss= and so on would be a good idea, and I probably will bring up the other things at ES, but not today because it's my bedtime. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
We could have both {{reduplication|lang=en}} and {{redup|en}} or something like that. As far as I can tell, we can still implement both with Module:links/templates, with the long one using compat=1. --WikiTiki89 22:34, 18 May 2015 (UTC)


Tabbed languages is not working right on this page, and the Citations tab and some gadgets are also missing. —CodeCat 17:14, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Bot request "Alternative forms" headings in Albanian entries from L5 to L3[edit]

Our Wiki parser/checker revealed a systematic problem with Albanian entries done by User:Etimo. These have often "Alternative forms" as level5 header following a l2 header for the language itself (see e.g. Arbërore, Lekë, prehër and some hundred other entries - I have a list.) IMO, these "Alternative forms" should be level3 as can be seen in color. LinguistManiac (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

What LinguistManiac meant to say is that he would like a bot to fix the headings. --WikiTiki89 14:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but actually to L3 - corrected the heading LinguistManiac (talk) 15:03, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Anchors in Chinese character entries[edit]

Would you consider adding subsection anchors in all the pages for Chinese characters? For example, then http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%85%88#Japanese would navigate directly to the Japanese section of that article. Same for Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.

Such a link sort-of works now, but it takes me to the bottom of the Japanese section, not the top.

thanks, -Mark Garrett [e-mail redacted]

Hi! Wiktionary already has anchors (as you note), and these are supposed to take clickers to the top of the relevant language section. For me, that's just what they do. If they take you to the bottom of the language section instead, I suspect collapsing tables (which take up a certain amount of space when the page is loading, but then collapse and take up less space, causing the content below them to "rise") are to blame. We're aware of that bug, but we haven't found a good way of fixing it yet. - -sche (discuss) 20:14, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

"singular only" labels[edit]

Module:labels/data contains a label "singulare tantum" which displays "singular only", and a separate label "singular only" which displays "not used in the plural". They both categorize into pos_categories = {"singularia tantum"}. Is there some reason for having these as separate labels, or can the second one be combined into the first one? I noticed this when adding "no plural" as an alias of the first one. - -sche (discuss) 20:10, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I have combined them. - -sche (discuss) 16:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
No (there is no good reason to have these as separate labels) and plurale tantum, plural only and pluralonly should be merged (if they are not currently merged). Renard Migrant (talk) 17:16, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Bugs in template {{C.}}[edit]

  • {{C.|22}} yields "22th c." - should be "22nd c."
  • {{C.|1}} yields "1th c." - should be "1st c."
  • {{C.|0}} yields "0th c." - I'm not convinced there was such a century
  • {{C.|-1}} yields "-1th c." - should be "1st c. BC" or some such
  • {{C.|too}} yields "tooth c." - template should do some basic vetting

SemperBlotto (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not a bug, but a missing feature. You're supposed to do {{C.|22|nd}}, etc. --WikiTiki89 20:33, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Template error in my babel box[edit]

Why I am getting the following message in my babel box:

"Lua error in Module:languages/templates at line 28: The language code 'en-us' is not valid."

Did somebody delete the language code for en-us? I don't believe there was a consensus to do so. The babel I'm running is en-us-N, FWIW. Purplebackpack89 23:56, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

There never was such a code. —CodeCat 00:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Well, SOMEONE changed SOMETHING so that what worked before doesn't work now. This follows a pattern by SOMEONE imposing changes without without knowledge or concern about consequences and without bothering to ask. I wish that SOMEONE would stop for good. Further the response to Purplebackpack89 is so evasive as to be deceptive. How is one supposed to AGF while being played for a fool? DCDuring TALK 01:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
If the environment was less hostile and more cooperative, editors might be more willing to be open about the things they do. Your accusatory tone is not helping. —CodeCat 01:22, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: If SOMEONE were more transparent in the activities engaged in, there would not be accusations. (Please note that it is an actual accusation, not merely the tone of one.) DCDuring TALK 08:21, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
First off, User:DCDuring, wha? You've completely hyperbolized what I asked in a manner that is ABF and generally unhelpful.
My best guess as to what happened is that there have been some recent changes to the babel template that require different templates exist, or else errors are generated. At one time, it may not have mattered that Template:en-us was a redlink, now it does. Not a coding expert, but would like there not to be error messages on my (and likely others') user pages. Purplebackpack89 04:15, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
BTW, User:DCDuring, the error in the template appears on your user page as well as mine, because you, like I, am in Category:User en-us-N. So you yourself have a least a little vested interest in getting this fixed. Purplebackpack89 04:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
@Purplebackpack89: Actually I had noticed it but had so despaired that such a thing would ever get fixed that I had chosen not to bring it up. But when a squeakier wheel brought it up, well .... DCDuring TALK 08:21, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I suppose I should have been more politic, but someone has to bell the cat. DCDuring TALK 08:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Related discussion: Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others#Template:User_en-us-N (which shows no consensus for deletion). - -sche (discuss) 01:51, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
no, this is the related discussion. I would not give up on this feature.--Dixtosa (talk) 06:44, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Aha. If we implemented the third solution you mention on Template talk:User lang, rather than the second (which is the one I implemented), would that unbreak this? - -sche (discuss) 13:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
No. en-us does not exist in ISO 639.
A new function could be written specifically for this purpose maintaining a list of the additional language codes. Are en-uk and en-us the only additions? --Dixtosa (talk) 15:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I know en-us isn't an ISO code, but the non-existence of a Wikipedia page wouldn't cause a module error the way the nonexistence of the code in Module:languages does, would it? - -sche (discuss) 17:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I think it is completely unacceptable that non-existant language code causes Module:languages to throw an error and no content to display. What should happen is it should be taken as "und" and an error category and maybe message should be added to the content. --WikiTiki89 17:39, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree with you, but apparently nobody who can do something about it cares what you think. DCDuring TALK 17:27, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Theme/Skin problem with pull-down tables[edit]

Pull-down tables have problems with skins Cologne Blue and Modern. Both with Internet Explorer 11 and with the latest Chrome, the label reading "Show" does not appear in the top-right corner. As an example, go to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vedere, and scroll down to "Conjugation". The problem goes away if I pick another skin/theme, or I log out (whereby Wiktionary will pick the default skin, I imagine). The console in both IE and Chrome displays Javascript error messages when either problematic theme is selected. Thanks. - User:Rgiuntoli 09:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, this is nothing new, it's been there for quite some time, and it's only now that at last I've had the opportunity to investigate this more in depth, and narrow the problem down to the abovementioned skins. - User:Rgiuntoli 09:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Template:synonym of, Template:alternative name of[edit]

and {{alternative term for}} which redirects to {{alternative name of}} all three seem to do the same thing and behave identically. --Dixtosa (talk) 22:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is. They display different text. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
{{synonym of}} does not have a comprehensive documentation but I guess it is also
used to indicate exact synonymy between the headword and the linked-to target, when the two terms are not simply spelling or punctuation differences of each other, but instead include different words
--Dixtosa (talk) 19:15, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
It's the displayed text that matters. It would be weird to say "up for is an alternative name of or term for down for", mostly because these are not really names or terms. I guess "synonym of" is more general and can apply to pretty much anything, but sometimes it's good to be more specific and use "alternative term for" or "alternative name of" when these actually apply. Just like {{alternative spelling of}} is almost the same thing as but more specific than {{alternative form of}}. --WikiTiki89 19:26, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
What's the point of any of these in a definition line? They add words, but not value. Does someone find them useful for dump searches? DCDuring TALK 19:34, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I think our human users find it useful. What does this have to do with dumps? --WikiTiki89 19:37, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Useful for what? What information is conveyed that isn't conveyed by argument 1 and its link alone?
Also {{alternative name of}} is just a specialization of {{alternative term for}} for nouns.
The use for dumps is to find text that has been so marked by a human. Were these widely used they would have some value. If there were some project that used these for some distinction, that would be an argument for keeping them. DCDuring TALK 11:34, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
When you go to a grocery store to buy lemons, you might see a sign that says "Lemons - $X.XX/lb.". Are you going to complain that they should remove the word "Lemons" because people should already know those round yellow things are lemons? --WikiTiki89 14:17, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


I have moved it to {{blockquote}} because it was used for larger texts and the appearance was a proof of this. If I get no objections I ll replace all the uses of {{quote}} with blockquote and then move {{quote/new}} to {{quote}}--Dixtosa (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)