Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2013/September

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← August 2013 · September 2013 · October 2013 → · (current)

revenge[edit]

This does not currently have an entry. Some etymologies have this coming from OF 'revanchier' which they claim is ultimately from Latin 'vindicare'.

This seems tortuous considering that in langue d'oc the word 'revènge' simply means revenge or comeback (coming again, gerund of 'revenir'). It seems much more likely that both the OF and the ME come directly from langue d'oc (called Old Provençal on Wiktionary), the OF noun 'revanche' coming first and 'revanchier' a back formation from that rather than the other way round. There is no need to posit an OF route into ME since ME and langue d'oc had direct contact between the late 12th to 15th centuries due to England owning large chunks of Occitania (the Angevin Empire), military and trade links, and (langue d'oc) vernacular poetry being popular in English and other Western European courts at that time. Flet (talk) 07:33, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

On what is this reasoning based? If it's all just your personal "common sense" I'm sceptical, especially when you use your "common sense" as justification to reject the established etymology. The seemingly more simple solution isn't always the correct one – Occam's Razor often misleads (the more simple explanation is only to be preferred all other things being equal, and usually they are not – history is full of amazingly complicated and frankly crazy sounding developments). Coincidental similarities are the bane of the etymologist. I have given the standard account now. However, as a courtesy, I have retained your suggestion. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:50, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

bandy[edit]

The current entry says that this comes from MF 'bander' which means to join, bandage, or tauten. This makes little sense in the context of the usage of the word bandy, which means to propel an object (or idea) to and fro. A much more likely candidate is langue d'oc (Old Provençal) 'bandir', one of the meanings of which is to throw, including e.g. volleying in tennis or badminton. Flet (talk) 07:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

tuck[edit]

Etymology 1 of tuck currently has an entry with a completely different meaning: "snack food", which has nothing to do with pleats or curls.

I propose that this meaning comes from langue d'oc 'tuc' which means uncooked. Tuck shop, tuck box, etc, derive from this sense. It should be a separate etymology (not related to OE 'tucian' at all) and a separate entry. Flet (talk) 07:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

rugged[edit]

The current entry has this coming from Swedish 'rug' meaning shaggy hair. Unfortunately rugged doesn't have anything to do with shaggy hair.

I propose that rugged comes from langue d'oc 'rugat' meaning creased or wrinkled, from 'ruga' a crease or wrinkle. Hence 'rugged' which means creased or wrinkled (in the sense of a mountain range or of a weatherbeaten face). Flet (talk) 08:05, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

punch[edit]

The current entry has this coming from MF 'ponchonner' and ultimately from Latin 'punctus' which has the sense of a point or pointy object. While this kind of makes sense if you're thinking about it from the point of view of a hole punch, it makes little sense in the original pugilistic sense.

It seems much more likely that this comes from langue d'oc 'punh' meaning a fist or a punch with a fist (compare MF 'poign', 'poignée', 'coup de poign'), possibly from or related to Latin 'punire' to punish. Flet (talk) 08:16, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

patch[edit]

The current entry for patch says ME origin unknown. However in langue d'oc 'petaç' means patch and predates the ME usage, so it seems probable that the ME came from the langue d'oc. Flet (talk) 08:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

That does not sound likely to me. Online Etymology Dictionary says: late 14c., of obscure origin, perhaps a variant of pece, pieche, from Old North French pieche "piece," from Vulgar Latin *pettia, probably from Gaulish *pettsi (cf. Welsh peth "thing," Breton pez "piece, a little"), perhaps from an Old Celtic base *kwezd-i-, from PIE root *kwezd- "a part, piece" (cf. Russian часть (častʹ) "part"). —Stephen (Talk) 08:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Possible that 'petaç' also came from 'pettsi' so they are cognates? 86.2.171.90 10:23, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

gammy[edit]

The current entry has this coming from Irish 'cam' meaning bent. However gammy doesn't mean bent, it means injured specifically of a leg. I propose that this comes from langue d'oc 'gambi' meaning lame or limping, from 'gamba' or 'camba' a leg (cf. MF 'jambe'). Flet (talk) 08:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

squish[edit]

The current entry says that this is onomatopoeic. However note langue d'oc 'esquichar' to squeeze or squish. It seems probable that squeeze itself was also at least fortified by this route. Flet (talk) 08:35, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

crutch[edit]

There is no etymology entry for this currently. I propose this is from langue d'oc 'cròça' which means a crutch. Flet (talk) 08:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

that etymology is not correct. Old English crycce is the predessesor of our word crutch. Leasnam (talk) 05:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
fixed Leasnam (talk) 04:54, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

cauliflower[edit]

There is no etymology entry for this currently. I propose that this is from langue d'oc 'caulet-flòri' meaning a cauliflower (from 'caulet' cabbage and 'flòri' with flowers). Flet (talk) 08:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

For this and all your above suggestions: we need to list etymologies that can be supported by what other dictionaries have already said. Wiktionary is not here for us to air our own personal etymological speculations. —Angr 12:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Is there a reason that Old Occitan would give the word directly to English? The ultimate root, of course, is Latin cole, and, in the absence of any evidence, one might guess that many Romance languages derived the word independently. (Possibly also Old English cawel from Saxon times?) Early versions of the word appeared in English in the late 1500s. Dbfirs 09:33, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

blag[edit]

The etymology here says that it is from F 'blague'. This word itself is slang that came from langue d'oc 'blagar' to chat. Flet (talk) 08:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

فندق (funduq)[edit]

This entry needs to be split; I'm pretty sure the sense of "hotel" comes from Greek πανδοκεῖον (pandokeîon). Some vowel markings and a general cleanup/expansion would also be nice. --334a (talk) 05:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

haereo[edit]

Does someone have etymological information on Latin haereo? --Fsojic (talk) 15:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The Online Etymology Dictionary says the following (under hesitation): PIE *ghais-e (cf. Lithuanian gaistu "to delay, tarry"), from root *ghais- "to adhere; hesitate." — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:46, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

chaulafán[edit]

Of Cantonese origin, I assume, but I don't know the etymon. The alternative forms (only a couple of which are listed on the page) vary greatly; do some of them have different etyma? By the way, chow fun#Etymology could also use a look-over to be sure that it's right. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:22, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Could be Cantonese, could be Mandarin, might be some other dialect. We have an entry for Mandarin 炒飯 (chǎofàn), from (chǎo, fry) + (fàn, cooked rice), but Cantonese has (had? Palatal and non-palatal consonants seem to be merged in modern pronunciation, according to w:Cantonese phonology) similar consonants, and it's basic enough that one would expect a similar construction in other dialects. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Let me add that chow fun isn't the same thing: it's fried noodles, not fried rice, and uses a different word/character for the second part. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:27, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
This is a confusing mess, what with chow fun sounding so similar after it gets compressed into European phonology. 炒飯 must be it, and it would explain the alt-forms well, but where on earth did the la come from? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/peyk-[edit]

On the talk page of this entry we have gotten a bit stuck with this entry. The Balto-Slavic languages reflect a palatovelar *ḱ, while the Indo-Iranian descendants seem to require plain *k. Is anyone else able to help? —CodeCat 21:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)