Wiktionary talk:About Chinese

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Please see Wiktionary talk:Entries on Chinese characters#Sortkeys and subcats for single-character entries for discussion of how to categorize the single-Chinese-character entries since they (may) apply to Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese (CJKV). - dcljr 08:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Archived discussions[edit]

Discussions from before January 2010 are in Wiktionary talk:About Sinitic languages/archive 1.

Category:Entries with translation table format problems[edit]

Autoformat has identified a number of entries that have the non-conforming language name "Chinese (traditional/simplified)". There are others that it has not yet flagged as well. I could not be trusted to correct this properly. DCDuring TALK 17:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As a rule, assume it's Mandarin. Traditional/Simplified entries go on a single, they're not really different 'scripts' but more like the French spelling reforms, were paraître becomes paraitre as the circumflex doesn't serve any purpose. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:26, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

?[edit]

(Note: I don't know a thing about Chinese.) A few questions/issues:

  1. What's up with the categories? There are Category:cmn:All topics, Category:zh:All topics, Category:zh-cn:All topics and Category:zh-tw:All topics. What's the difference?
  2. WT:AZH#Min_Nan says that Min Nan "has four main branches... This poses a problem for Wiktionary, since these dialects are not mutually intelligible, and only one L2 header may be used per ISO 639 code. ... To date, virtually all entries for Min Nan have been based on the Amoy dialect, which is widely considered to be a de facto standard. The disposition of other dialects such as Teochew and Qiongwen Hainanese remains undecided at this time." I'm pretty sure that standard practice for branches among languages is to use context labels for words that don't exist in some branches. Why should this language be different?
  3. I seem to recall some consensus about not allowing toneless pinyin entries? If there was, shouldn't this be mentioned on WT:About Chinese?
  4. WT:AZH lists {{infl}} as being the standard template to use, and repeats it many times for all the languages that do not yet have templates built for them specifically. Rather than showing an explanation for {{infl}} over and over again, wouldn't it make sense to make the page say that for dialects that don't have specific templates yet, use infl, and then explain how to use it once?
  5. Are these languages treated as separate languages or as dialects of one languages? If they're separate languages, why do things like Category:Chinese templates exist, instead of being split into sections?
  6. What is the Wiktionary code for Mandarin, zh or cmn?

--Yair rand (talk) 07:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Just one answer for the moment: #What is the Wiktionary code for Mandarin, zh or cmn?. This is annoying but the assisted method doesn't work well with cmn, it creates {{ tø|cmn| for translations, this they can't be linked to zh:wiki. zh works better but bots change them to cmn. ZH is short for Chinese 中文 (Zhōngwén), CMN is Chinese Mandarin but both have the word Mandarin in templates. I learned to live with this :) The reasons for existence of Chinese and Mandarin are historical. Mandarin is standard Chinese and most written Chinese material is in Mandarin. There are no YUE, NAN, etc. Wiktionaries but there are some new WIkipedias in dialects. --Anatoli 12:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I proposed on WT:BP, and still do propose eliminating zh, zh-cn and zh-tw from category names. zh is used for translations as the Mandarin Wikiprojects uses the code zh not cmn. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:28, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Move debate[edit]

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Wiktionary:About Chinese

I'd prefer Wiktionary:About Chinese languages as a title. It makes it clearer that we don't allow Chinese as a language. Furthermore, as much content as is reasonable/possible should be moved to the individual languages involved - Wiktionary:About Mandarin shouldn't be a redirect. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I support moving the contents into Wiktionary:About Mandarin, Wiktionary:About Min Nan, etc. Despite these languages naturally sharing common characteristics, they conceivably have different conventions as well, such as grammar and names of templates. --Daniel. 13:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
Wiktionary:About Chinese (or a renamed version) should still exist, at the very least it could give context on what we call 'Chinese' here, and then link to the individual languages' pages. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I support moving to About Chinese languages. IMO as long as there is no Mandarin-specific information to be split off of that page, hard-redirect from About Mandarin. Precedent, fwiw, is About sign languages, redirected to from both About American Sign Language and WT:AASE (ase is American Sign Language) as well as from WT:ASGN (sgn is the group (or whatever it's called) code for sign languages).​—msh210 (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Moved. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:17, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Move debate (2)[edit]

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Wiktionary:About Chinese languages

We don't have a Category:Chinese languages; we have a Category:Sinitic languages for that.

For that reason, I suggest moving Wiktionary:About Chinese languages to Wiktionary:About Sinitic languages. (And keeping the old name as a redirect.) --Daniel 19:05, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Done. Nobody objected. --Daniel 02:27, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Next time, please remember to check for double-redirects; in this case, that would be pages that redirect to Wiktionary:About Chinese languages. MediaWiki only supports one level of redirection, so once Wiktionary:About Chinese languages became a redirect to Wiktionary:About Sinitic languages, those redirects stopped working. (Don't worry, I've updated them now. Just something to remember for next time.) —RuakhTALK 03:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
OK, I will check for all double-redirects next time. I've fixed some double-redirects to Wiktionary:About Sinitic languages, and missed others, before your help. Thanks. --Daniel 03:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)


Banning foreign proper nouns as Mandarin[edit]

I propose to make it a language policy of banning all proper names used in Mandarin context if they are not in Hanzi, regardless whether there are citations - Chinese do write in foreign language occasionaly, these foreign words don't become Chinese though. Foreign words should be and are transliterated into Chinese characters, otherwise they should not be considered Mandarin. The complexity is not a justification for not following this rule. This is to avoid entries such Thames河, Alps山, Alzheimer病, etc. once and for all. PRC and RC policies both regard using names in Roman letters as incorrect, which is widely accepted. --Anatoli 05:18, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I support this. Japanese speakers also use Latin-based foreign words in their writing occasionally, when there is a perfect katakana equivalent. Sometimes, it's done for stylistic reasons (as, very unfortunately, Western cultures are considered trendy in Asian countries), sometimes, well, some just want to show off. You can find this aspect especially in their song lyrics. Quite often the English lines don't even make sense whatsoever. Anyway, I digress. As I noted, writing in foreign scripts especially Latin-based languages is especially trendy among younger generations. Ok let me put it another way. I have seen English speakers putting words in Japanese hira or kata characters in their writing, when the same concept can be written in English perfectly. It's the result of a change in people's perception towards the Japanese (language or otherwise), which is now considered trendy and also the proliferation of Japanese learners in the past decade. Again, does it mean these words are now considered borrowed into English? If you say yes, then I have no problem with Thames河 being included in this dictionary. JamesjiaoTC 06:00, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Re: setting up a vote (something mentioned in the BP): do you want to set up a vote that would only ban proper nouns? Or do you think common nouns like e-mail地址 should be banned, too? If so, then the vote could be broader. But your comments on RFV suggest you wouldn't delete all mixed-script entries (eg Y字). Presuming you'd like to ban e-mail地址 but not Y字, how can the vote be worded, so that it does that? - -sche (discuss) 06:03, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
@-sche, don't get me wrong, mixed scripts are perfectly normal, like the ones you listed and many more, eg. AA制. Karaoke can only be written as 卡拉OK in Mandarin. I'm talking about proper nouns, I don't want mislead users to believe that Oslo is Oslo市 in Chinese, even if you find examples of usage. I have seen a Chinese map of Australia on a Chinese site on the internet where ony biggest cities were translated into Chinese. A user like Engirst would start quoting the untranslated names as Mandarin, which is wrong.
@Jamesjiao, sorry you lost me, I don't know what you mean. Could you rephrase it, please?--Anatoli 06:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
I was just comparing the analogy of using Japanese hiragana/katakana in English (esp. among Japanophiles) with the use of English (or other Latin script based languages) words in Chinese (due to trendiess probably?). This might not be a perfect analogy, but it's a start. You will also find that people are more inclined to use Latin characters in, especially for Proper nouns when using a computer keyboard (as opposed to handwriting). I also mentioned the fact that monolingual Chinese speakers wouldn't understand a mixed construction like this. JamesjiaoTC 06:45, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Oh another thing is pronunciation. For a word to exist in a language, there has to be a way to pronounce it. I can't imagine a non-English speaking Chinese speaker trying to pronounce Thames河 even if he/she is able to recognize and even pronounce the individual letters. JamesjiaoTC 06:52, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
I definitely don't think that Kana words in English are to be considered English but I haven't seen it, that's why I couldn't understand what you mean. Yes, you're right, most Chinese speakers wouldn't have a clue how to pronounce Thames河 or Seine河, Hudson河 or Volga河. --Anatoli 09:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no only one standard for Chinese language. Chinese is not only for Mainland China, but for Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore and overseas. Such as President Bush is written as 布什, 布殊 and Bush as well. 2.25.212.4 13:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

In which part of the world is the standard Chinese name for Bush "Bush"? 60.240.101.246 13:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
There is no only one standard. A dictionary just record the words exist. 2.25.212.4 14:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I get such a strong sense of déjà vu here... Engirst, do you have any original arguments? Your points above have been refuted. As noted elsewhere:

  1. we already have a record of Thames and a record of ;
  2. using a term from one language in a sentence of another language may represent w:code-switching instead of borrowing;
  3. there is nothing intrinsically Chinese about Thames;
  4. the use of Thames in Thames河 is an example of an English term used as an English term in a Chinese context;
  5. the use of Thames in Thames河 is a collocation of two independent terms;
  6. as a non-idiomatic sum-of-parts phrase, Thames河 fails WT:CFI, just as yellow sweater or tasty kumquat fail WT:CFI for the same reason.

So, to extrapolate a basic list of criteria for including any word from Language A under the heading for Language B, not just proper nouns:

  1. Is the term used in Language B to convey any meaning that is different from its meaning in Language A?
  2. Alternately, is the term used widely enough in Language B that most speakers and/or readers of Language B should be expected to know and readily use the term?

Well, that's it, actually. I can't think of any other solid reasons for including a term from one language under the heading for another language. Use in Language B does not necessarily mean that the term has been adopted into that language. As soon as the term is used as Language B, i.e. where it has some meaning that is specific to that language or where it is well-known and widely used, then I am happy to advocate listing under both Language A and Language B headings. -- HTH, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:04, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Your list seems good for the vote. I suggest to add the Mandarin romanisation entries, like Thames Hé vs Tàiwùshì Hé, the former falls into the same category. --Anatoli 21:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
This is a very comprehensive list. Code-switching is what I had in mind, but I couldn't remember the term at the time. Code-switching occurs extremely often in Taiwan, not just between Mandarin and English, but Japanese, Korean and even their local flavour of Hokkien dialect as well. I often see short Japanese phrases like かわいいね。。。 in Taiwanese online blogs mixed in with Chinese characters. This is a very typical case of code-switching in writing. JamesjiaoTC 02:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
The vote to ban this kind of entries is set up here. Wiktionary:Votes/2011-10/CFI for Mandarin proper nouns - banning entries not in Chinese characters. --Anatoli 01:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Not being a speaker of Mandarin or Japanese, I have a question which might help to clarify the issue for those in a similar position. Which of the following example in English best equates to "Thames河" in Mardarin: "résumé" (a French word, wholly adopted but retaining glyphs which are not properly in the English alphabet), άλφα (a Greek word which, when used, is italicized to indicate that it is from a different language), or something completely different? I do think it might be a bit early for voting, since in all of the discussions around this topic I have only seen 5 or 6 contributors. - TheDaveRoss 02:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
In answer to your question: this is like Москва#English (a foreign word, which indicates that it is from a different language by being in a different script). - -sche (discuss) 03:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
TheDaveRoss, it's only one user, not many (who creates/recreates them), trust me, with different IP's. The issue at hand is that this user claims that "Thames河" - English "Thames" + (river) is a Mandarin word, citing examples from books. Note that river names are always followed by or other similar words in Mandarin. There are other examples where foreign names are written in Mandarin without translating, showing the foreign name in the original script. My argument is that the Chinese word for Thames is 泰晤士河 (Google Books -3,150 hits) and there is no reason to include the SoP term Thames河, there is nothing Chinese in Thames. The rule and common practise is transliterate/translate people's names cities, etc. no matter how small. There are borrowings into Mandarin, very few have also a few Roman letters (三K黨 / 三K党 Ku Klux Klan) but writing full names in Roman letters is a case of code-switching. OK#Mandarin is a common noun, not a proper name, it has become partially naturalised. Like any other language, Mandarin uses native script to write words, using other scripts when it absolutely has to. "London市" or "Hyde公园" are not exceptions, they are case of code-switching (simply Chinglish) - correct and common terms - "伦敦", "海德公园". The issue is not just Mandarin specific. Some argue that bluetooth should be the right way to write the word in Russian. A similar situation could arise for Japanese, Russian, Hindi or Korean, Arabic, others, where people insert Roman letter names. I believe these names don't become naturalised. I hope expressed myself well. If a word in Roman becomes naturalised, then we can include them, still discussing pizza#Mandarin (a common word). --Anatoli 03:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Pinyin with no tra or sim[edit]

Is there any sensible way to find these? I have been speedy deleting some of these; given that {{pinyin reading of}} links to the tra and sim, it seems reasonable. For example we don't allow plurals that don't have a singlular ({{plural of|xyz}} when xyz doesn't exist yet). If anyone wants to create Hanzi entries for these, then recreate the pinyin, it is with my blessing. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:27, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you said. Engirst 12:40, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
He is saying that we don't allow a plural form entry for English words when the singular form does not yet exist. He is asking if that also means that we shouldn't have the pinyin form when the traditional or simplified Mandarin forms do not yet exist. He has been deleting them when he sees them. - TheDaveRoss 02:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
I think Engirst considers the character entries too complex and is not worth his time creating. I digress. There is in fact here: vote (That a pinyin entry, using the tone-marking diacritics, be allowed whenever we have an entry for a traditional-characters or simplified-characters spelling.). It doesn't however explicitly exclude pinyin entries when there are no character entries present. Maybe the wording can be change to something like: That a pinyin entry, using the tone-marking diacritics, only be allowed whenever we have an entry for a traditional-characters or simplified-characters spelling.. JamesjiaoTC 02:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Sounds like a reasonable suggestion. There's not enough resources validating Romanisation entries (SoP, attestability, etc. let alone the Chinese characters - often one version is omitted). Not sure how this can be done but I support voting on this. Maybe Engirst will start creating some Chinese character entries before adding pinyin? (wishful thinking) --Anatoli 03:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm OK with users adding valid pinyin (attestable / with correct tone-markings) without adding hanzi, I'm also OK with users creating valid plurals (attestable) without creating the singulars... we allow that on de.Wikt, we even have bots to create forms without regard to the presence of the lemmata, because in that way, a user who looks up the form or the pinyin will at least have a bit of information, better than nothing. Having said that, I think all of you, as the active Chinese editors, could form a consensus and agree that you interpret the vote as requiring hanzi to exist first (this is how I always interpreted the vote), and delete pinyin entries that have no hanzi form, without having a new vote. - -sche (discuss) 03:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Seems like without any vote, nothing can be achieved in Mandarin space, most active Chinese editors (except for this user) all disagree with Engirst (he may now be avoiding his own user account) but changing or deleting his entries causes edit wars or someone may think he is just being bullied. --Anatoli 03:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Just as another reference for comparison --
If I understand it correctly, the current policy for Japanese entries is to have the main entry with most of the information located under the kanji headword when there is one, or under the kana headword otherwise, and for the romaji (Japanese pinyin, as it were) entries to *only* serve as disambig pages pointing users to the relevant other headwords. Consequently, romaji entries should not have any "See also", "Derived terms", "Usage notes", or other headings. The kōgai entry is a good example of this in action. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 04:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Pinyin romanisation rules went further - parts of speech are not allowed but we do have many pinyin entries without hanzi. --Anatoli 00:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Are the tone-markings on these words correct?[edit]

Talk:Nèi Ménggǔ, Talk:Ménggǔ. (Other editors: feel free to list entries in this section if you doubt they have correct tone-markings. It should be helpful to have a single place to gather them for cleanup. If there is such a place already, other than the clogged WT:RFC page, please move these there.) - -sche (discuss) 12:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It's Nèi Měnggǔ and Měnggǔ. --Anatoli 12:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Your examples show the tone sandhi where the original third tone is pronounced as second in front of another third tone but it's usually not reflected in pinyin romanisation. --Anatoli 12:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-10/Mixed script Mandarin entries[edit]

Wakie-wakie, the vote is on. --Anatoli 04:50, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Mandarin part of speech template[edit]

Templates like {{cmn-noun}} allow p for pinyin as a first parameter. This should be phased out. There's an effort to remove all pinyin from part of speech categories and have them only in Category:Mandarin pinyin and subcategories, at some point the templates will have to follow suit, though we're months away from being ready. So this is a heads up. --Mglovesfun (talk) 21:22, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

But this parameter serves the same purpose as tr - transliteration and the hyperlink allows to see if there are other hanzi with the same pinyin. I have no strong opinion on your suggestion at the moment.
I've been checking your list at User:MglovesfunBot/cmn-parts-of-speech-Latn, as you have noticed. It's quite big, very time consuming, inviting other Sinophone editors to join the effort. If the entry' hanzi are red-linked, it can be deleted, rather than converted. Sometimes I also leave entries if they only have a Japanese but no Mandarin entry (planning to add them later). --Anatoli 21:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
{{cmn-noun|p}} is used for Mandarin nouns in the Latin script. Since we no longer use {{cmn-noun}} (cmn-adj, adv, abrr, etc.) for pinyin entries. Something like {{cmn-noun|ts|pin=fú}} will still work! --Mglovesfun (talk) 18:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I misunderstood, sorry, I was thinking about pin parameter. Can you give an example, please? --Anatoli 21:47, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Category:Mandarin Wade-Giles[edit]

Err, when did we approve Wade-Giles transliterations for inclusion? I can kinda understand Pinyin, but this? -- Liliana 15:23, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Binned. --Anatoli (обсудить) 03:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Audio files[edit]

See commons:Commons:Village_pump#Category:Chinese_pronunciation. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:00, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I have some doubts about your request. The main reason being many homophones, and then the request should also specify if we want jiantizi, fantizi or both (there are variant characters) too. The conversion is far from straightforward. Perhaps, using audiofiles based on toned pinyijn was the right choice, even if it's more complicated to use bots to add audio files to hanzi entries. I see some of audio entries miss tone marks. --Anatoli (обсудить) 21:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the audio files should stay at the pinyin filenames, because if I am not mistaken, multiple characters with the same pinyin romanization X have the same pronunciation. Giving the file a pinyin filename allows it to be uploaded to all characters that have pinyin X. It seems easier to write a bot to do that, than to host the same file under dozens of names. - -sche (discuss) 21:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

{{commonsrad}}[edit]

Note: the title of this section was previously {{Commonsrad}}.

Sarang (talkcontribs) has created {{Commonsrad}}, and would like me to run a bot that will add it to all entries and indices for radicals (e.g. and Index:Chinese radical/一). Does everyone agree that this should be done? —RuakhTALK 15:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

If it's going to be bot-added, there is no harm in giving it a clearer name first. Maybe {{Commons radical}}? —CodeCat 16:29, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
If Commonsrad seems not clear enough, I have no objections to give the name 5 bytes more — the data space of 2000 bytes more won't mind either. I chose a name close to {{Commonscat}} because it is very similar to it. In fact, Commonsrad can told a variation of Commonscat but with a display better suited for its usage, and the possibility for easy expansion whenever wanted. If then it may be used to link non-radical Chinese glyph Wiktionary pages to their Commons categories, Commonsrad is not so misleading than a clearer descriptive name like {{commons radical}}. -- sarang사랑 18:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
It seems to be a use at Wiktionary to have template names with lower case initials (with upper case redirects)? Another question to decide! -- sarang사랑 05:48, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure from the description what the template will do, but it looks harmless enough. -- A-cai (talk) 22:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Template has been moved to {{commonsrad}}, hence the red links above. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:28, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Baxter-Sagart[edit]

I'm not really active in this project, but I did add a new appendix, Appendix:Baxter-Sagart Old Chinese reconstruction. It's referenced, and the table data is programmatically generated from the reference data with a program whose source code I also made available. I hope this in some way can be of help. - Gilgamesh (talk) 22:57, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

葡文[edit]

If someone knowledgeable could check that the pronunciation and pinyin of [[葡文]] are correct, it would be appreciated. :) - -sche (discuss) 21:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Does "(written)" mean that 葡文 refers to written Portguese, or that 葡文 is {{literary|lang=cmn}} and mostly used in written Chinese and not in spoken Chinese? - -sche (discuss) 21:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
It refers to written Portuguese (normally). 葡萄牙語 / 葡萄牙语 (Pútáoyá yǔ) and 葡萄牙文 (Pútáoyá wén) are more common words. The suffix / (yǔ) more commonly refers to the spoken and (wén) to the written language. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:34, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Ah, interesting! - -sche (discuss) 00:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

, 𡰪[edit]

The transliteration and four-corner number, respectively, of these characters were tagged {{fact}}; can anyone verify them? they and the Japanese character (the On-reading of which has been questioned) are the last remaining Han characters tagged {{fact}}. - -sche (discuss) 00:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Toneless pinyin usage notes[edit]

Currently, our toneless pinyin entries all have a usage note at the bottom which says:

  • English transcriptions of Chinese speech often fail to distinguish between the critical tonal differences employed in the Chinese language, using words such as this one without the appropriate indication of tone.

I don't have much of a problem with it (although maybe "Chinese" should be changed to "Mandarin"), but I realized that if we do want to change it, it will be somewhat difficult, and some of them may be edited and fall out of synch. To solve that, I propose that we create a template called {{cmn-toneless-note}} or something similar and ask an editor with an AWB account to change all instances of the text into a template call. What do you guys think? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:13, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Support. - -sche (discuss) 19:43, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Support. Also, "using words" should probably be "writing syllables". (We don't have toneless-pinyin entries for whole words, only for individual syllables.) —RuakhTALK 20:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Well... sort of. On one hand, you are correct that this is only used for specific syllables, but OTOH the syllables are words, in the loose Chinese way of looking at what constitutes a word. (One Chinese man was trying arduously to convince me that all words in Mandarin are one syllable long. I was unsuccessful in my attempts to get him to revise his native definition of what a word is to the Western linguistic concept.) Incidentally, the entries (like nu#Mandarin) also point to forms like , which not only is marked for tone but also has a different vowel, and perhaps the note should reflect that. (Of course, I'm not sure how useful that is anyway, because when my friends don't have access to the character , they type nv3, not the equally inaccessible diacritic form.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:13, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, if our goal were to conform to "the loose Chinese way of looking at" their languages, then we'd treat all of them as dialects of a single language. It isn't, so we don't. By most linguistically-well-informed accounts, the vast majority of Mandarin words are bisyllabic. —RuakhTALK 22:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I personally find your comment rather arrogant and disparaging. 129.78.32.21 04:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't find it arrogant but one needs to know Chinese (also Vietnamese, Thai, etc.) are traditionally called monosyllabic as all or almost all polysyllabic words are made of component words, exceptions are phonetic transription, characters that have lost their meaning over the time but it's less of a case with Mandarin. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I was referring to the "dialect/language" comment, where he regarded "we" as identical to himself in having the personal stance of considering "Chinese is not a single language" to be false. It is a language, by Wikipedia at least. 129.78.32.21 05:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Views on this differ but I agree that Chinese topolects are more like dialects than separate languages, even if they may not be mutually comprehensible when spoken, quite different on the written level, they are often closer than dialects of other languages (provided they are written the Chinese way, using hanzi, not Roman, Cyrillic, Arabic or other scripts). Wiktionary treats Chinese topolects differently as per language headers but translation are all nested under "Chinese", e.g. Chinese/Mandarin, Chinese/Cantonese, etc. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Please note that full words in toneless pinyin were explicitly forbidden by votes and almost unanimous agreements, it happened before Metaknowledge became active. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

So do you support this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, Support. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Erm... so do any of you AWBers/botters want to actually do it? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Delete all pinyin, whether toned or not. Move it to Appendix at least. It is merely a transcription scheme, not even official orthography. 129.78.32.21 05:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't work this way. IP users (anonymous) with no or little contributions have little influence and structure is decided after discussions, votes, etc. Entries in Category:Mandarin pinyin do not claim they are proper writing, they are a helpful tool for users to help them find hanzi entries. They have limited information, all information is contained in hanzi entries. Compare bàoyuàn and 抱怨. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I knew they contain limited information. Still, they should not exist in the main namespace. This is a dictionary, much more specific than a "tool". The search function is sufficient in directing users to character entries for polysyllabics. With the monosyllabics a link to an Appendix page is all that is necessary. Keeping everything in the main namespace is unworthily energy-consuming. 60.240.101.246 06:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to change topical categories for Mandarin to match other languages, sort by pinyin, not radical[edit]

See Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/April#Some small changes to Mandarin (also Cantonese, Min Nan) entry structure and about topic categories - suggestion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:20, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Chinese entries with vowelless pronunciations[edit]

The pronunciation transcriptions in the following entries do not list vowels, though I suspect they should:

  1. 妒嫉
  2. 积累
  3. 積累
  4. 妓男
  5. 喊叫
  6. 水汽
  7. 冷靜
  8. 坚固
  9. 堅固
  10. 记住
  11. 記住
  12. 评价
  13. 評價
  14. 相机
  15. 相機
  16. 即将
  17. 即將
  18. 前门
  19. 前門
  20. 经历
  21. 經歷
  22. 金牌
  23. 决不
  24. 決不
  25. 绝不
  26. 絕不
  27. 告罄
  28. 模具
  29. 顺其自然
  30. 順其自然
  31. 布拉吉

- -sche (discuss) 23:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

How did you find them, at random or you have a script for that? User:Tooironic used to add IPA but he is less active now, User:Wyang has developed an entry creation template - Template:cmn new, which also generates the IPA, so for 积累, the IPA is /t͡ɕi⁵⁵ leɪ̯²¹⁴⁻²¹⁽⁴⁾/. My preference is to delete the IPA altogether (replace with {{rfp}}, rather than showing the wrong info. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
I found them at random(ish). I used WP:AWB to find entries containing deprecated IPA characters, and happened to notice that in addition to containing deprecated characters, all of these entries also lacked vowels. - -sche (discuss) 23:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Unified Chinese vote[edit]

Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-04/Unified Chinese is starting tomorrow. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:45, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Capitalisation of demonyms and language names - a mini-vote[edit]

Hi,

@Tooironic:, @Jamesjiao:, @Kc kennylau:, @Wyang:

Demonyms and language names are common nouns in Chinese. I suggest to use lower case for pinyin and no space, even if dictionaries are inconsistent. Please vote below and invite anyone who might be interested. So, for example: For 中國人中国人 - zhōngguórén, 中文 - zhōngwén, not Zhōngguórén/Zhōngguó rén and Zhōngwén.

Rationale: they are nouns and automatic pinyin generation makes them in lower case, Japanese has already implemented this.

Support
  1. Symbol support vote.svg Support Use lower case, common nouns (not proper nouns), spell pinyin without a space for most demonyms and language name --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose The official instruction is to use capital letters and spaces. See w:Pinyin#Capitalization and word formation. --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:00, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    I don't mean place or personal names. It's about languages and demonyms--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 09:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    They're just names anyways. Do you capitalize the word English? --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    I do, in English but nihongo or nihonjin is not capitalised. Russian, Finnish doesn't capitalise those. French only capitalises demonyms, not languages. It can go both ways with language names and demonyms, dictionaries have one or the other way. That's why this discussion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    Okay, please find me examples of both cases, and I'll switch to abstain (I'm so lazy). --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:28, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Abstain
  1. Don't really have any preference for this as I am generally not interested in Pinyin. Wyang (talk) 01:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    What about proper vs common nouns. Is 普通话 or 美国人 a common or a proper noun? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 09:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

I ran into a capitalized pinyin entry today: Lai2 (linked to from ). Capitalized tone-number pinyin like that does look weird to me. Capitalized diacritical pinyin looks less weird. - -sche (discuss) 20:11, 31 May 2014 (UTC)