Wiktionary talk:About Yiddish

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Transliteration[edit]

I think I just more or less created a new transliteration standard. Is everyone OK with this? Our entries seem to deviate a lot, but does anyone know if they are mostly in YIVO transliteration or not? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:17, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I have been using the YIVO standard for all transliterations of phonetically spelled words. Does your new standard deviate from YIVO? The biggest problem is transliteration of non-phonetic words (i.e. Hebrew words). We really need to come up with a standard for those since I have seen many inconsistencies regarding this. For example, should the Hebrew plural ending ־ים (im) be transliterated in Yiddish as -im or -em (since the vowel is reduced to a schwa). --WikiTiki89 (talk) 08:43, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
OK, looking back over it, I realize that it's actually almost identical to YIVO. You should be fine. I agree that Hebraized spellings are a mess, but the solution for those is to find the spelling used after the Soviet phonetic reform and substitute in that transliteration. I'm pretty sure they changed Hebraized ים– to Yiddishized עם–, but I'd have to check to be sure. By the way, we really need to run a dump analysis to check for any use of bare "פ" in Yiddish entry titles. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:18, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
We also need to decide what to do about unpointed Yiddish. It's not standard, but it seems to be quite common. I recently moved פעלד to פֿעלד without a redirect, but maybe פעלד should be listed as an alternative nonstandard form of פֿעלד. Also, the Hebrew drop-down character box needs to be expanded to include Yiddish characters, and since we aren't using ligatures except ײַ, that should be added and the other three removed. Hebrew doesn't need them, does it? —Angr 21:09, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
I would advocate that we add a section here that says that unpointed forms can only be alt-forms. Do you (pl.) agree with that? Thanks for reminding me of the edittools dropdown. I'll add all the Yiddish characters to it. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
EDIT: Actually, all YIVO-standard Yiddish characters were already supported by MediaWiki:Edittools with the exception of ײַ, which I just added (and thus which will appear eventually, sooner if you clear your cache, I think). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:47, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree with a note saying unpointed forms may be added, but only as alternative forms. When trying to type פֿעלד above I was unable to find the rafe in the dropdown table, but now I've found it. —Angr 16:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Alright, I guess I'll add that in. Викитики89, please speak up if you disagree! PS: !האָב אַ גוט יאָר!/שנה טובה —This unsigned comment was added by Metaknowledge (talkcontribs) at 02:01, 18 September 2012.
I don't have a problem with them being added as alternative forms but I don't think it is necessary to go about doing this wherever possible as there would be too many attestable combinations especially from before the YIVO standard. שנה טובה און גוט יום טוב!‏ --WikiTiki89 (talk) 10:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I agree, but it may be appropriate to add it on a page like זיי ("they"), not to be confused with זײַ ("be!"). Maybe we need a template, {{yi-unpointed form of}}, which would produce a neatly piped link to nikud or w:nikud and a fake nonstandard context label (which actually links to w:Yiddish orthography or something) but feeds into Category:Yiddish alternative forms? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah that's a good idea. I think we should make a policy of adding them to pages that already exist (like זיי or conflicting Hebrew or Ladino words). --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. See פעלד. How does it look? (I figure we oughtn't add it to pages like זיי before someone creates all the inflected forms of verbs.) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:36, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Looks good. I've been bold and added it to אויפן as well. —Angr 20:51, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I made a couple of edits to AYI; please review the changes to make sure you're fine with them. Mostly, I added a section on adjective templates and mentioned unpointed forms. If somebody can please provide more documentation, preferably here, about using the conjugation templates, then I think I'll be able to fully understand this whole convoluted Yiddish template system. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Digraphs[edit]

I think that when יי appears in a word without a diacritic beneath it, the entry title should include יי and not the one-character thingy that looks like יי, and that there should be a hard redirect from the version with the one-character digraph, so that any possible Hebrew entry is on the same page, for convenience (look in one place for two things). Thoughts? (Of course, this wouldn't apply to יי with a diacritic.)​—msh210 (talk) 17:00, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, all the (unpointed) digraphs ײ, ױ, װ should be deprecated in favor of two-character forms יי, וי, וו, with hard redirects from the digraph forms to the two-character forms. —Angr 20:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
We do say explicitly that ײַ is the only ligature we use. If you (or anyone else who likes this kind of job) wants to fix any existing Yiddish entries that might have those digraphs, I would be quite happy. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:16, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Phonetic spelling[edit]

We should say something about forms using the "phonetic spelling" of Hebrew/Aramaic words favored in the Soviet Union. I'd recommend including them if attested but tagging them with something like {{yi-phonetic spelling of}} to point to the standard spelling using Hebrew/Aramaic spelling. —Angr 17:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I support that. I suppose I'll create the template soon if nobody comments. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Is there a generally accepted name for this spelling? "Phonetic spelling" is a term I just pulled out of my ass. —Angr 20:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Not that I know of, but I'm not a Yiddish scholar. It sounds pretty legit to me. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:31, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Update[edit]

I just thought I'd tell you guys what I've been doing in Yiddishland lately. First of all, in case you hadn't noticed, {{yi-phonetic spelling of}} now exists. I'm also starting on an effort to create complete entries for every Yiddish term at WT:FR:yi, which means a lot of inflected forms. The standard format I've been using for inflected forms can be found as follows:

Do all these look good to you? Also, I'd like to call your attention to Category:Requests for etymology (Yiddish), which could use some work. !אַ דאַנק --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:07, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. Good luck, there are a lot of redlinks. חג שמח!‏ --WikiTiki89 (talk) 16:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
וויקיטיקי, you list yourself as an advanced template-maker. Can you figure out how to use User:Conrad.Irwin/creation.js to greenlink the plural(s) in {{yi-noun}} and the participle in {{yi-verb}}? I know how to do it in very basic situations (like {{lg-noun}}) but I'm not sure how to include the transliteration. Thanks again! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
I've never used User:Conrad.Irwin/creation.js and have no idea how it works. Is there a guide or some examples I could look at? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 14:07, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
You can enable it in WT:PREFS. It creates green links instead of red links when a template can supply the metadata to allow that redlink to be created with a single click. Play around with it - I think that {{lg-noun}} is the simplest template that has it. Once you enable it, try the greenlink at omulenzi (it will be correct). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:51, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
I already have it enabled I'm just trying to figure out how it works. Is the metadata contained in the <span> tag? If you can find me an example of one that does use transliterations that would help. I noticed that some languages have special cases for transliterations right in User:Conrad.Irwin/creation.js itself. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:35, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, it's the spans. AFAIK, {{he-noun}} is the only non-Latn template to use it, so maybe you can figure it out from there. I'm not sure what's up with the special cases. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

A few things[edit]

  1. How do we feel about having a part of speech called 'particles'? See Category:Yiddish particles.
  2. I'm having trouble with some suffixes and prefixes. How would you define פֿאַר־, ־ניק, and ־דיק?
  3. Can we choose an L4 header for adjectival inflection? Some entries have 'Declension', most have 'Inflection'.

Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

  1. Why not? Most languages seem to have them.
  2. Yeah that's difficult. I would compare entries like for-, ver-, -ник, -ик, -y, -ig, -ic, -icus.
  3. I prefer "Declension" but it doesn't make much of a difference.
--WikiTiki89 19:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree with WikiTiki in all three points. —Angr 20:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
After reading ver-, I still feel somewhat confused. Anyway, I guess I'll try to get an AWBer to switch us over to 'Declension'. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

from German[edit]

A number of entries cite a Yiddish word as deriving from a German word. (I just came across it at [[shul#English]], but I've seen it elsewhere also.) Didn't Yiddish derive from what we call "Old High German" rather than from what we call "German"? Of course, there are probably loanwords from German, but I suspect that many of the claims of German ancestry of Yiddish words are mistaken. I don't know about any one in particular that it's mistaken, so I haven't been correcting them. But maybe someone who knows can do so. (And maybe someone with the ability to do so can list them. It'd require, I guess, scanning a dump for all instances of {{etyl|de or German that occur either in a ==Yiddish== section or in the same ==language== section as {{etyl|yi or Yiddish.)​—msh210 (talk) 20:34, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

There are indeed German loanwords in Yiddish, but of course the majority of Germanic words in Yiddish are inherited from Old/Middle High German. The trouble is that sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. שול, for example, would probably look the same either way. I know that שפּראַך is a loanword, because if it were inherited it would be "שפּראָך", and קאָרט and קאַרטע are doublets: the former is inherited, the latter is a loanword. But I really only know this handful of examples; I'm not in a position to go through Category:Yiddish terms derived from German and make sure everything there is genuinely a loanword. —Angr 20:56, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
P.S. I just noticed that שולע exists as well; perhaps שול is inherited and שולע is borrowed. But I don't know for sure. —Angr 20:57, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
I try to keep a vague eye on Category:Yiddish terms derived from German, but checking the English entries is much harder. In the case of shul, I reckon that it's not from German but shule is, because Yiddish will sometimes pull off the feminine suffix but I don't think Standard High German ever does (Angr, care to prove me wrong?). I don't have a Yiddish etymological dictionary, though, so I can't do any better. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:55, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I have nothing to add except the note that Wiktionary:About Yiddish#Etymologies does attempt to address / acknowledge this problem. - -sche (discuss) 01:50, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Marking stress in transliterations[edit]

I think we should allow marking the position of stress by using an acute accent on the main vowel of the stressed syllable (á, áy, é, éy, í, ó, óy, ú) as is recommended at WT:AHE; although Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds disagrees because they're not allowed by YIVO standards. What do other users think? --Sije (talk) 20:53, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

If we were to use them, which I oppose, I think it should only be for words like פּאַיאַץ where the stress is not predictable. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:30, 2 August 2013 (UTC)