Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/廣府人

廣東人 probably not a good title

@The dog2 I don't think this is a good title for this. It should probably be moved to 廣府人, but I'm not sure. @RcAlex36, what do you think? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I don't know. My hunch is that 廣府人 is a very Southeast Asian thing, and people from Hong Kong don't understand it, much in the same way as 廣府話. As I previously mentioned, when I used the term 廣府話 when talking to a Hongkonger, the person did not immediately understand me, and only after thinking for a few minutes did he figure out what I meant. The dog2 (talk) 22:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: The issue is that 廣東人 is not usually used for "Cantonese people" in standard Chinese (at least in most of China and probably Taiwan). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:19, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

And 廣府 is not exclusively SE Asian, just more formal or common in academic circles rather than everyday speech. It's just not used anymore in common usage due to the new government administration, making 廣府 become an obsolete notion. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I see. And this is just anecdotal, but it also seems like the 廣府 is more widely understood by Cantonese-speaking mainlanders than by Hongkongers. The dog2 (talk) 22:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: 廣東人 would normally mean any person from Guangdong. The title is very SEA-centric. RcAlex36 (talk) 01:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: So how would you refer to a Cantonese person in Hong Kong Cantonese? The dog2 (talk) 02:05, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: If you really wanted to, it'd be 廣府人, but that's very rare. People would probably identify as 廣東人, but that could mean from anywhere in Guangdong and not just the narrow area of Guangzhou and adjacent areas. Some people might say 南番順, but that's not quite the same and might be less common as well. Most people just specify where exactly their hometown is (at the county level, usually), so like 番禺人, 中山人, 東莞人, 佛山人, 順德人, etc., since most people speak Cantonese anyway. There's no need to group together by language when you're the dominant language. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:13, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I see. Interesting considering that the Teochews have a generic term for al Teochew people in their dialect. But yeah, in Singapore, if you say 廣東人, is usually excludes the Teochews and Hakkas, even though those groups are also from Guangdong (which might seem a little strange, since Teochews are the second largest demographic in Singapore, and Cantonese are only the third). In much the same way, 福建人 in Singapore excludes the Henghuas and Foochows/Hokchius even though those groups are also from Fujian. The dog2 (talk) 02:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2 It looks to me that classifying people by the dialects they speak instead of their places of origin is a very SEA or overseas thing. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Not entirely true. It's more like when you have more than one language (other than the dominant), you'd group people by their languages, so Hong Kong has labels like 潮州人, 客家人, 圍頭人, etc. for people speaking the respective varieties. Perhaps it also has to do with endonymy and exonymy. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:40, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sort of. 圍頭人 is probably also not a very old term. Were they simply called 本地人 in the past? RcAlex36 (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I think so. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:45, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: So do you guys find it strange then that even though there are more Teochew than Cantonese people in Singapore, 廣東人 refers to Cantonese people and not Teochew people? The dog2 (talk) 03:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: Not really. It probably depends on who was there first, how Teochews self-identify, how Cantonese people self-identify and the prestige of Cantonese in Guangdong. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:28, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: Guangzhou has held a prestigious status probably ever since there were the Thirteen Factories. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:38, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @The dog2, RcAlex36: I've moved the module to 廣府人. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:40, 19 January 2021 (UTC)