Talk:Bermuda

Noun 1 Changes

1. An island group in the the North Atlantic Ocean, 580 nautical miles (1074 kilometers) east-southeast of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, held as an Overseas Territory by Britain.

Giving a location seems to be heating people up. First off, it is neither in the Caribbean, nor due east North Carolina, its closest neighbour. The CIA World Factbook gives the location as: "North America, group of islands in the North Atlantic Ocean, east of South Carolina (US)". This is, in fact, more than is necessary for a dictionary setting. Precise figures belong in an encyclopedia.

Current Definition is: "An island group in the the North Atlantic Ocean, 580 nautical miles (1074 kilometers) east-southeast of Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, held as an Overseas Territory by Britain."

"island group" could be changed to archipelago, but this is unnecessary.

Then it’s a moot point. —Stephen 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

...Fascinating...really...

Precise figures remain unnecessary, especially considering definitions for other countries (Iceland, "a country in Europe", and Canada, "a country in North America").

Nothing is necessary, not even the article itself. Necessity has no bearing. It’s what we find useful. If such good information is missing for other countries, the proper thing to do is improve the other articles to bring them into line with this one, not reducing this one to the level of the others. —Stephen 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Statistics belong in an encyclopedia, not an dictionary. In fact, from Wiktionary:What Wiktionary is not, "Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia, a genealogy database, or an atlas; that is, it is not an in-depth collection of factual information."

American dictionaries contain the location information that I have provided in this article. It is useful for us and its existence will not hurt you. —Stephen 05:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Is does, however, make the definition very awkward.

"Cape Hatteras, North Carolina" would have to be switched to "Cape Hatteras, North Carolina".

If you want to wikify North Carolina, go ahead. But we particularly want Cape Hatteras wikified because this invites someone to write the article for Cape Hatteras. The only helpful change: wikify North Carolina. —Stephen 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, Overseas Territory should be wikified as well, as it is a specific condition (that is, in fact referred to in other articles such as British Crown dependency; in that example a Crown Dependency is defined being a possession that is not an Overseas Territory, but as OT doesn't have a definition, it is rather meaningless...)

Yes, Overseas Territory should also be wikified. —Stephen 05:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking around wiktionary, a map like the ones for the US states definitions would be probably be a good idea for the Bermuda article.

A map would be fine. —Stephen 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Noun 2 Changes

Definition 2: Colour.

1. A pale, slightly blue shade of green.

   bermuda colour:

This seems complete, as established by the precedents of other colour entries. No further changes necessary? Speculation on origin is (a) speculation, and (b) unneccessary.

Adjective 1 Changes

1. Of, from, or pertaining to Bermuda, or the Bermudian people.

   see: Bermudian, Bermudan

Anons have claimed that it is used adjectively. A quick look online brought up some examples, such as [1] and [2], and throughout [3].

Are you able to discern the difference between an adjective+noun and a compound noun? Bermuda is a noun, and like many nouns (bedroom, water tank, motorcycle, printer cartridge), it is used to form compound nouns (Bermuda onions, Bermuda grass, Bermuda shorts). When you have to have an adjective, you have to select from Bermudan or Bermudian. —Stephen 05:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Any particular reason for targeting me personally?

I might ask you the same thing. —Stephen 05:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Because you have shanghaid the article. Anyway, your opinion on the use of Bermuda in the examples?

BTW, I have no particular care for this definition.

I don’t know what examples you mean. —Stephen 05:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

...Uh huh.

Adjective 2 Changes

1. (colour) of a pale, slightly blue shade of green.

See: Noun 2 Changes.

Bermuda is not an adjective, but like most nouns, it can be used in certain compound-noun constructions. —Stephen 12:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

And the fact that every other colour entry includes the adjective form?

Tobacco

Oxford dictionary includes "a variety of cigar, or rolled tobacco." Example of it is: "c1640 [SHIRLEY] Capt. Underwit IV. ii. in O. Pl. (1883) II. 381 Will you take Tobacco in the Roll? here is a whole shiplading of Bermudas."

Rather archaic and I'm tempted to suspect slang. Note that the colony on Bermuda was originally established as a tobacco farm, though what it shipped out was often of low quality.

Copied over from User Talk: Stephen G. Brown

Please CEASE AND DESIST constant, arbitrary reversions on controversial definitions without discussion with other users. This behaviour is childish. If you wish to make changes, add your comments on the discussion page.

By reverting to earlier versions of the page, you are deleting important revisions. If you have a change or addition, you can make it to the current version of the page. If you delete the revisions that have been added, I will revert you. —Stephen 12:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Do not continue editing the main article while discussion is underway. By doing so you are deleting important points to the discussion. Also, please contribute to the other sections of the discussion pertaining to your edits; otherwise, I will have to assume that you agree with the stated position and will thus change the main article accordingly.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s a mistake to assume that I agree with whatever position you are vaguely alluding to. —Stephen 04:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The position that is stated in the discussion section of the article in question.

Which is? —Stephen 04:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Your edits included changing the location (noun:1) and both adjective definitions. You commented on the second adjective definition (to which I have replied), but not on the location. Please do so. Also, please leave the article as it is while the discussion is underway. We can change it once we are finished, but by removing the adjective sense you make the discussion rather inane.

The location is correct. The adjective is Bermudan, Bermudian. Burmuda is not an adjective. —Stephen 04:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

That is hardly a defense of your position. At any rate, please continue your point on the article's discussion page itself.

What about the location are you disagreeing with? —Stephen 04:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm finishing up for the night; could you please add something more to the Adjectives discussion at some point? Thanks.

I will add back the second adjective in about another 48 hours.

A Compromise

From what I can tell, the more common name of the colour is "Bermuda Green". Finding instances of "Bermuda" alone is understandably difficult. A Google search of the hex value, 7DD8C6, yields a couple of results, both of which result in the "Bermuda" instance: one from the Texas Precancel Club[4] and Xona.com[5], which warns: This Xona.com color list has modified names. So, unless you can find some better examples to the contrary, we could create a Bermuda Green article, move the colour entry there and add a link to it on this entry. This should settle the colour-based adjective entry.

Yes, except for the capitalization. It’s Bermuda green, cap B, small g. The phrase "Bermuda green" may be grammatically either an adjectival phrase or a noun phrase, but it’s made up of a noun and an adjective. In short, "Bermuda green" is an adjective and a noun, but the word "Bermuda" which forms part of it is a noun. —Stephen 07:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Now, regarding the other adjective entry, we could simply amend a usage note observing the use of Bermuda in an attributive sense. I do feel that it is worth mentioning, considering how easy it was to find examples (from the original links, a selection: "Bermuda standards", "Bermuda cuisine", "Bermuda construction", "Bermuda shower", "Bermuda history"; from an earlier discussion on the subject: "Bermuda fish" and the Government of Bermuda using "Bermuda Government" as shorthand), despite that multiple adjectives exist (and have existed for over a century). It is also fairly easy to find examples of these terms that use "Bermudian" or "Bermudan" instead, even for terms such as "Bermuda Cedar" and "Bermuda Rig" that are considered nouns in their own right.

Most nouns can be used in just that way, and they are rarely given individual treatment in dictionaries due to the fact the that it’s a standard English grammatical construction with no change in meaning. The only consideration you see in dictionaries (I only know about American dictionaries) is for set phrases that contain the word, such as Bermuda green, Bermuda onion, Bermuda shorts, Bermuda grass (speaking of these phrases as units, the first example is an adjective or a noun, the other three are nouns). But the Bermuda component in each of the examples is a noun. Since the use of a noun in an attributive role is a grammatical feature of English, and since it does not entail an altered meaning, dictionaries don’t address it. It’s something for the grammar books. But any set phrases, such as Bermuda green, make valid dictionary entries.

Some of the examples you mentioned, however, do not strike me as set phrases. I have never heard of "Bermuda cuisine" before. It’s correct grammar to say it, of course, but, unlike Bermuda shorts, I’ve never heard of it before. If I were to speak of that subject, I would use the adjective Bermudan cuisine. Nevertheless, if it is a set phrase that people may encounter in books or magazines, then it deserves a separate dictionary entry.

Also, in spite of how it is sometimes seen, Bermuda cedar is with a small g. I suppose that Bermuda rig is with a small r as well, but I don’t know what it means. —Stephen 07:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "Bermuda cuisine" specifically, it was from Bermuda-Online.org[6], one of the dominant sources of information on Bermuda. On the specific page, [7], the writer uses both Bermuda and Bermudian interchangeably (i.e. "a typical Bermudian Sunday breakfast.", "An old Bermudian - St. David's Island - dish", "a Bermuda national dish", "Bermuda honey is more", "stop eating expensive Bermuda citrus", "Bermudian chefs often ", " a distinctive Bermudian dish", etc.). The same is true of the This Old House site[8]. On the penultimate paragraph, they feature both "Bermuda history and culture" and " Bermudian architecture and construction". The article in Associated Engineering Today[9] uses primarily Bermuda. "Bermudian-style building" compared to " Bermuda shower", "traditional Bermuda construction" and "a Bermuda slate roof".

Regarding the noun use, while many nouns can be used as such, how common is it for proper nouns with established adjective forms? "America", "England", "Russia" and so forth. I am unsure about on the subnational level (i.e. US States).

Finally, my key concern is that if we keep the colour definition as simply "Bermuda", then we would need to include its adjective. If we do that, then we would need to somehow tell users that, for example, a "Bermuda slate roof" did not mean that it was green. If we create the Bermuda green entry, then I will not contest disincluding the other adjective sense (as it should then be fairly intuitive at that point).

The difference between Bermuda/Bermudan vs. America/American is one of familiarity. The adjectives "American" and "English" are extremely commonplace, while Bermuda is rarely spoken of except as a vacation site (noun) and certain set phases such as Bermuda shorts. If something happened to make Bermuda a topic of daily conversation for every American, then the adjective forms would soon start to sound natural to us.

The word "Bermuda" all by itself would not be understood as a color. No one would say, "I’m going to paint my front door Bermuda"... and if someone said it, nobody would understand it. In a text about "Bermuda green", where "Bermuda green" is mentioned repeatedly, it is normal to abbreviate "Bermuda green" to just "Bermuda" in some cases, but the word "green" is still implied and understood. Or in a text about the many shades of green, one of the shades could be listed as simply "Bermuda", but here again it’s an abbreviation and the word "green" is understood. All by itself, "Bermuda" is not a color in the way that beige or blue are colors. Bermuda is a color in the way that blood is a color...blood red; or that sky is a color...sky blue.

And this also explains why no one would think that "Bermuda slate roof" meant that it was green. —Stephen 10:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not understanding your argument. It does not seem to relate to what I actually wrote.