Talk:gay man

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RFD discussion: January–February 2021[edit]

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.


SOP. PUC21:54, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That identity is socially constructed, and not all men who are exclusively or primarily attracted towards other men embrace that identity – they do not consider it defining. Whether or not one agrees with their position, are they not, nevertheless, gay men? If they are, the term is SOP. If not, we need a definition that makes clear it is confined to homosexual males who embrace a “gay identity” – which we would need to define, and requires attestation of both terms as having theses senses.  --Lambiam 15:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Also, many male homosexuals are closeted and adopt the identity of a gay man only after they've made the conscious decision to openly identify as such. Both homosexual males and females today can come out as gay, whereas only same-sex attracted women come out as lesbians and same-sex attracted men come out as gay men. Louisianajones1978 (talk) 16:26, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that a homosexual man only becomes a “gay man” by their coming out?  --Lambiam 22:18, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
that's really more of a philosophical rather than a definitional question. Is a homosexual man considered a gay man when he realizes he's attracted to men? when he has sex for the first time? or when he openly identifies as a gay man? When does a homosexual woman become a lesbian? I think it's likely a personal process of identification. Louisianajones1978 (talk) 22:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to understand why you feel that gay man does not simply mean “a man who is gay” but has a lexical identity of its own. So if this is not the definitional issue revealing the distinction, then what is?  --Lambiam 11:03, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All of these alleged nuances seem to be properties of gay, not gay man. It is accurate that some gay men reject the term gay, hence the medical term MSM, but, again, that has nothing to do with this adjective-noun combination.__Gamren (talk) 23:53, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe point it to Thesaurus:male homosexual ? Troll Control (talk) 10:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly gayman is attestable (Citations:gayman)- although from my brief research it seems to have been a short-lived usage from around 1990 and not appearing in more recent writing. DTLHS (talk) 00:37, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Equinox 06:01, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WT:COALMINE. DTLHS (talk) 21:54, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the coalmine test applies. Compound nouns in English are made as noun+noun, so gayman must use the noun sense of gay. Gay man is just an adjective and a noun. Delete, obviously.__Gamren (talk) 23:53, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Gamren. I would assume that the compound is pronounced /ˈɡeɪmæn/ or /ˈɡeɪmən/, a pronunciation that would be very atypical for gay man, so they cannot be supposed to represent the same word in spoken language. Correct me if I'm wrong. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 19:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. SoP. Also the definition is not accurate. A man is a male human, not an identity. (E.g. "I identify as a gay man = I identify as an identity"?) Can also be substituted by "gay gentleman", "gay boy", "gay lad", etc. This entry is hogwash — and I say that as a gay man. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:46, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is rather sad and unfortunate that after homosexuals hijacked the term gay, usage of the original sense seems to have dropped dramatically. So a passage from a 1962 railway magazine: "A rather gayer finish than usual regained 2¾min between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross" now seems rather dated. But gay man has plenty of synonyms: my favourite is poof. DonnanZ (talk) 13:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My favourite quaint old use is from a 1970s interview with notorious British politician Jeremy Thorpe, in which the interviewer says that he ran a "very gay" election campaign! Mihia (talk) 15:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not fully synonymous, I think; one would hardly call a bear a “poof”.  --Lambiam 12:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you wouldn't… —Mahāgaja · talk 14:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No reference to bears anyway. Maybe you mean Pooh Bear. DonnanZ (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This can easily be fixed. Tell me one provable (sourced) thing that belongs to, or is done by, a "gay man" that would never belong to, or be done by, "man who is gay. Equinox 09:40, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFD-deleted, with clear consensus to delete. — surjection??16:03, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]


RFD discussion: March–May 2022[edit]

The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.


I wonder why it was recreated when it was deleted a year ago? (see: Talk:gay man) @BryanKatz if you could answer, please. Nonetheless, a reason I can see for keeping it is as a translation hub seeing that homosexual is not recommended for usage as a noun, and some of the translations there are also on that same vein that are actively discouraged, exceedingly formal, and/or exclusively used for gay men, but don't currently have a qualifier (which can lead to confusion). There's also no direct equivalent to the translations at lesbian (noun) at the moment. So I'd keep as T-HUB as it could be a very solid translation point, especially for more everyday terms. AG202 (talk) 16:45, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to vote delete, but your translation point is an interesting one. Theknightwho (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I was actually about to add this edit to my initial comment actually when you replied: "I see the translations at gay (noun) but for similar reasons as with homosexual, being that it's not commonly used as a noun in English in the singular and can be offensive, I'd prefer that they be at gay man & lesbian, but I'm not super torn on it either way, and wouldn't be too opposed to re-deletion." So it'd be a weak keep for me, just because I think this could be a really solid translation point if done well. AG202 (talk) 16:54, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's just been deleted out of process... Theknightwho (talk) 17:47, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I expected maybe a little bit more time before the re-deletion, but meh, I would at least like to lob the prospect of undeletion specifically for being a t-hub since I was in the process of adding more translations that aren't found at the aforementioned pages, but someone else can make the formal undeletion request if that's needed. I'm personally a bit turned off from this discussion after the conversation and attitude on Discord. AG202 (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am out of the loop on anything to do with Discord entirely. Isn't it against the spirit of the WMF to be holding decision-making discussions there? Theknightwho (talk) 18:15, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, there’s no reason to hold discussions in private spaces. But I don’t care as long as it’s not mandatory for all to participate in Discord chats. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 20:21, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is obviously gay men who object to being called homosexuals, but it is perfectly acceptable by most other people. DonnanZ (talk) 18:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
here's your (You) —Fish bowl (talk) 09:18, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"here's your (You)"? - you've lost me on the meaning of this. Facts707 (talk) 07:36, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I have heard a gay man described as a homosexual since maybe the 1970s, verbally or in print. I certainly wouldn't use it that way - it sounds very dated and/or pejorative. Facts707 (talk) 06:47, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's been 30 days, RFD-restored/undeleted, pinging @Fytcha, bd2412. AG202 (talk) 15:11, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AG202: Restored. — Fytcha T | L | C 00:58, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! AG202 (talk) 02:09, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]