Talk:heptamerede

Definition

The Smith quote, using heptamerede to refer to an "inſtrument", doesn't AFAICT match our definition of "¹⁄₃₀₁ of an octave". Nor do any of the references listed in the entry (except perhaps the OED, which I can't see) support our definition.​—msh210℠ (talk) 19:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Nor does the Spanish translation seem to match our definition AFAICT not knowing Spanish.​—msh210℠ (talk) 19:25, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The OED entry just says "see quot."; AFAICT, all the referenced "authorities" are making argumenta ad etymologiam which are unsupported by Smith's use. See w:Joseph Sauveur, w:Savart, and User talk:Atelaes#heptamerede ← … ← *ἑπταμερηδ-? for context. I believe Smith uses (deprecated template usage) instrument in the sense "That which is used by an agent in or for the performance of an action; a thing with or through which something is done or effected; anything that serves or contributes to the accomplishment of a purpose or end; a means." (cite: OED, sense 1a). — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 19:31, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing up the issue of the references. Perhaps some caveat should be tacked onto the References section so people don't wonder, as I did, what these sources are being used as references for, as in fact they're not being used as references for anything. And should we remove the Spanish? Re instrument, you mean he means that the unit (heptamerede) is an instrument used to express the interval, as the inch is used to express a length? That does make sense; otherwise, I don't see how an heptamerede can be an instrument, "used... in or for the performance of an action", "a means".​—msh210℠ (talk) 19:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'll add (a) cavea(n)t to that section later today; when I realised that those dictionaries define the term erroneously, I changed the References header to Dictionary notes, but I was reverted, since "dictionary notes [is] no longer a valid header". I've removed the erroneous Spanish translation. Your analogy of the inch is indeed how I interpret Smith's use of (deprecated template usage) instrument and (deprecated template usage) heptamerede. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 14:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I've also removed the Welsh translations because they're unattestable. Besides, they looked badly-formed to me; *(deprecated template usage) seithrannydd would be the form I'd use. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 16:11, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

How will these do as caveant? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 19:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Beautifully IMO (assuming, of course, that they're correct). Thanks.​—msh210℠ (talk) 19:27, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

All the information I've added to and retained in that entry is accurate to the best of my knowledge. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 21:14, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

definition and quotation from the entry

1. (acoustics, obsolete, rare) An interval of pitch 1/301 that of an octave; a savart.
   • ante 1790 (pub. 1795), Adam Smith, Eſſays on Philoſophical Subjects, “Of the Nature of that Imitation which takes place in what are called the Imitative Arts”, editorially annexed essay: “Of the Affinity between Muſic, Dancing, and Poetry”, page 184

     The heptamerede of Mr. Sauveur could expreſs an interval ſo ſmall as the ſeventh part of what is called a comma, the ſmallest interval that is admitted in modern Muſic. Yet even this inſtrument, we are informed by Mr. Duclos, could not expreſs the minuteneſs of the intervals in the pronunciation of the Chineſe language; of all the languages in the world, that of which the pronunciation is ſaid to approach the neareſt to ſinging, or in which the intervals are ſaid to be the greateſt.

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Is this attested outside of dictionaries and the one cited work? - -sche (discuss) 09:36, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

It's an obvious typo. Sauveur didn't call it a "heptamerede", he called it a "heptaméride", which is possibly attestable in English (sometimes without the accent). 1, 2, 3, 4 Smurrayinchester (talk) 11:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I would sooner call it a variation than a typo. Regardless, he is clearly quoting the word from a French text (even though there are no quotation marks) and so it doesn't support that this is an English word. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 11:06, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I can only find it in dictionaries and in this one text (the one quoted in heptamerede). Heptameride seems to be good though. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:33, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Can it be called dictionary-only if it has one non-dictionary cite? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards typo because literally every dictionary entry I can find is apparently basing their entry on the same quote, the only use of the word in the whole Google Books corpus. Since the quote explicitly says "The heptamerede of Mr Sauveur", it seems like the writer is familiar with Sauveur's work (so he has the original spelling to hand), and there's no obvious precedent for the change (Google books finds hits for "meride", "eptameride" and "decameride", but no valid hits for "merede", "eptamerede" or "decamerede"). It just seems more likely than a typesetter unfamiliar with the word printed it wrong than for the author to have chosen to spell the word with an "e". Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Or, the author spelled it the way he pronounced it, neither checking nor caring whether it was spelled the same way in French. He wasn't necessarily staring right at Saveur's work while writing his own. I don't see why either explanation is any less likely than the other. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I have just created heptameride without realising this conversation was going on. I have put heptamerede down as an alt spelling but if this is a misspelling/typo perhaps it should go. Heptameride (music) seems to be more citable (which I will add shortly) but still a bit iffy as all the cites I could find are explicitly discussions of Sauveur. However, heptameride has other citable senses as well, which I will also add citations for shortly. SpinningSpark 15:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I think heptamerede should be included in Appendix:English dictionary-only terms, but not in the main namespace, as a variant. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 15:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 17:18, 13 November 2012 (UTC)