Talk:ibrik

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Actually, I'm not sure if this (number 1) is the correct definition. In Turkish, Bosnian, and in Serbian, the word ibrik is not a coffee pot with a long handle (that's called a cezve in Turkish, džezva in Bosnian and Serbian). Ibrik is a type of ewer. I've added that it also means a ewer. Can someone check this to make sure that the definition is correct or note that it is incorrectly used? --Dijan 06:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But, Dijan, why do you put back the "etymology" showing from a Farsi word "abriz" (which does not exist) when there is the Farsi word "abriq" which happens to mean "pitcher" or "ewer"? "ab" means "water" certainly (but only if its got that madda over the alif, which is missing in the very doubtful word "abriz"), but as far as I know, "riz" does not mean a "cup"; rather it means something very small, a garin, or a droplet. From what source do you get this etymology? --User:Qahwa
In Persian, آبریز (âbriz) means sewer, latrine, watershed. —Stephen 16:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Qahwa, we're not talking about what the Persian translation for the word is. We're talking about the etymology of the word. The Arabic word came from Persian compound (aab) = water, and (riiz, from older Persian "rêz") = cup. Riiz in modern Persian does not mean cup (as far as I know) it means "tiny". But, then again we're not talking about modern Persian or the translation of the word, but rather about the etymology of the word. "Madda" IS placed over the alif in "aab", but probably not over "abriz" because the word evolved (not sure). I've seen that used as an etymology on other websites, but I cannot be sure whether that is the correct etymology. I will do some reasearch on that in the next few days and will inform you of it. --Dijan 18:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the etymology of the word as stated on Wikipedia article on "cezve" "İbrik is Turkish from Arabic `ibriq in turn a rendition of Persian a:bri:z - a:b water, ri:z (older re^z) a cup. See Stenigass Persian-English dictionary under ibri:q." --Dijan 18:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also what Stephen mentioned does have some connection to the word itself. The word also means "toilet" in Persian. In Turkey & in other places where Ottomans ruled (such as Bosnia), ibriks are used in bathrooms to pour water to wash hands and to serve in place of toilet paper. Today, such practices still exist in rural areas of the Muslim world. Also, the most common definition of an ibrik is "a water pot used in a Turkish bath". --Dijan 18:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to NTC's Gulf Arabic-English dictionary by Hamdi A. Qafisheh, the Arabic word comes from Persian أباریق ('abārīgh) and in Arabic has a variation Template:ARchar ('ibrīj). --Dijan 19:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dijan, I have not been able to verify this yet, but I have been told that the "ri:z" in "abri:z" does not mean a "cup" in older Persian, rather it is the the present stem of the the verb "to pour", so "abri:z" would be a "water-pourer" rather than a "water cup". The past stem of the verb "to pour" is "ri:x", which accounts more logically for the transformation into "abri:gh" in modern Farsi. Does this make sense to you?

When I first put this word in, I had a lot of trouble working out where it was from, as it isn't in most dictionaries. If I remember rightly I found it on the OED online (to which I used to have access), where they confirm pretty much what the w:cezve article says. Widsith 08:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... I could not find it in OED (neither cezve, jezve, ibrik, nor ibriq). But, I do keep running into the "riiz" Persian part in various websites and discussion forums about "ibrik". --Dijan 16:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Can someone please check to make sure that the meaning is correct in English? Also, see the talk page. --Dijan 06:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was me that put this word in in the first place, having read it in the book quoted on the page. I had no idea what it meant, and trawled the internet to find out. But lots of sites seem to support the definition given, including the one SB linked to above, and also this one. There are others too. Widsith 07:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. There are a lot of sites (mostly from English perspective, not Turkish) that support the definition. I was just wondering if maybe it can be considered as incorrect or corrupted usage? (I don't know.) If you image google ibrik, the item that the definition here is describing will only show from some English websites. All Turkish sites (along with Serbian and Bosnian ones) will return images of ewers. For example, look here: Turkey Travel Planner, Discover Turkey, and a Turkish shopping website where I searched for ibrik. Here is also a website in Croatian describing what an ibrik is: Virovitica City Museum. Here is also a website in German (scroll down and you'll see the item is labelled as ibrik under the section called Vorderer Orient) Die Sammlung. --Dijan 08:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia, in US it is called an ibrik, even though it does not represent the same item in Turkish and other mentioned languages. I guess it's just a term that is being used for the ewer and the cezve. Although, it is worth mentioning that an ibrik (ewer) is not used for coffee and if you ask for coffee in Turkey (or Bosnia) in an ibrik people will mostly likely think that you're crazy. --Dijan 08:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I've amended the etymology just slightly. It's not clear whether ibrik in Turkish ever meant a coffee-pot, or whether the meaning in English came from some misunderstanding. I am a bit wary of relying on its use in Serbian etc. to arbitrate. Widsith 08:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm mentioning Serbian usage because it comes directly from Turkish. If you ask for Turkish coffee (which is usually what coffee means in Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia), you will get it in a cezve and not an ibrik. But in English cezve is called ibrik (probably through misunderstanding). I've removed the {{rfv}} template. I've also indicated that ibrik does not mean the same in Turkish and I've added traslations for each meaning (coffee-pot and ewer). --Dijan 08:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
rfvpassed


EDIT: I would make a small comment. In the Macedonian language the word IBRIK is used for insulting someone. It is not a harsh insult, it is more of a mild provocation often said in a joke. This word is used by older people. My grandfather called me IBRIK when I would cause a BELYA when i was little. — This unsigned comment was added by 69.116.165.130 (talk) at 00:10, 16 April 2008.

English[edit]

Hi, Dijan! Would you please reveal the reason of your deleting referenced information? Thank you. --Chapultepec 12:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reference that you posted was simply an older copy of this page. --Dijan 20:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, at first I thought it was vice versa, thank you for your informing...

By the way, I noticed that you changed the language from Turkish to Ottoman Turkish in the etymological sections. Of course, most of the Turkish loans to Western languages took place during the Ottoman period. But I should state that Ottoman Turkish is a period of the Turkish language, not a separate one. That is to say, Turkish is not a language having started in 1923, what started in 1923 was the modern Turkish period only. And if you have noticed, major online English dictionaries prefer the term Turkish rather than Ottoman Turkish, even the word was loaned into English during the Ottoman period.

Here is a Britannica article mentioning about the 4 periods of the Turkish language, namely Old Anatolian and Ottoman Turkish, Middle Ottoman Turkish, Newer Ottoman Turkish and Modern Turkish periods: the article

Therefore, I propose that we write firstly Turkish, and beside it Ottoman Turkish if the word was loaned in the Ottoman period, in the etymological sections of the words. Thus, a reader may see a complete list of the Turkish origined words in the related category; and if s/he wants, s/he may also see the list of the words that were loaned in the Ottoman period in the Ottoman Turkish category. --Chapultepec 15:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Ottoman Turkish is a period of the Turkish language. However, Old French is a period of the French language, Middle English is a period of the English language, and yet they are all listed here in the etymologies. Yes, major sources perfer Turkish, because that is how it has been done historically. The language was not known as "Ottoman Turkish" to foreigners until the development of Modern Turkish. Most sources also write words in the Roman script, (and sometimes in their reformed, modern pronunciation) however Ottoman was written in Arabic script. What you can do, is list Modern Turkish words that have descended from Ottoman Turkish under the Ottoman Turkish headwords as Descendants. --Dijan 18:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments. But, like French and English, Turkish language has earlier periods as well. Such as Seljuk era Turkish (or Turkic), Middle Turkic, Old Turkic etc. I do not even count them. What I try to explain is that the Ottoman era is a very recent era, and when a word is mentioned that it is of Turkish origin, this does not comprise only the modern Turkish period. Let me give an example with a link to ibrik article in Turkish Language Association's online dictionary. As we can see, its etymology is given as Arabic, and Ottoman Turkish is not mentioned as predecessor at all: TDK - ibrik

As for the major online dictionaries, as we all know they are modern dictionaries and are all up-to-date. But they still use the term Turkish for the etymologies in the existence of modern Turkish for almost 90 years.

And as for the script change, alphabet changes do not necessarily imply a change in the languages. Let's take some east European and ex-USSR languages for example, several of them went through alphabet changes in 1990s. But this did not make them different languages.

Although it does not correctly reflect what I try to explain here, another solution is also possible; we can enter the Ottoman Turkish template and term firstly, and the Turkish template and term beside it, in parentheses. (of course if the word belongs to the Ottoman era) --Chapultepec 19:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point. I am not against Modern Turkish listings at all, however it would be greatly appreciated if you bring it up with the rest of the community in the Beer parlour (Community portal) for discussion. --Dijan 07:39, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am pleased to see that you are not against it, thank you. But, I feel the necessity of stating it once again :), the term Turkish language comprises not only modern Turkish period, but also the Ottoman Turkish era. Until 1928 it used the Arabic alphabet, and thenceforward the Latin alphabet is being used.

Since the topic is general and not specific to the word ibrik, the beer parlour will be also useful. Again, thanks for your kind cooperation. --Chapultepec 18:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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