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Discussion 2004[edit]

So how about showing the greek letters already? And a pronunciation would be helpful.

In Greek, Liddell and Scott shows λοπαδοτεμαχοσελαχογαλεοκρανιολειψανο­δριμυποτριμματοσιλφιοκαραβομελιτοκατα­κεχυμενοκιχλεπικοσσυφοφαττοπεριστεραλεκτρυο­νοπτοκεφαλλιοκιγκλοπελειολαγῳοσιραιο­βαφητραγανοπτερύγων [1]... and cites that as an "emended" form. Perseus project's edition of Ecclesiazusae has λοπαδοτεμαχοσελαχογαλεοκρανιολειψανο­δριμυποτριμματοσιλφιοτυρομελιτοκατα­κεχυμενοκιχλεπικοσσυφοφαττοπεριστεραλεκτρυο­νοπτεκεφαλλιοκιγκλοπελειολαγῳοσιραιο­βαφητραγανοπτερυγών [2] (which is not spelled the same as the above, nor the same as this page's title: they are all the same till "-hypotrimmatosilphio-" where the dictionary goes on to -karabomelito-, this page goes to -paraomelito- and the text goes to -tyromelito-). Perseus's English translation lists lepadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsano­drimypotrimmatosilphiotyromelitokata­kechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryo­noptokephaliokinklopeleiolagoiosiraio­baphetragalopterygon [3] which is closer to the last one but still different. (A straightforward Hellenization of the page title would come out Λοραδοτεμαχοσελαχογαλεοκρανιολειψανο­δριμυροτριμματοσιλφιοπαραομελιτοκατα­κεχυμενοκιχλεπικοσσυφοφαττοπεριστεραλεκτρυο­νοπτεκεφαλλιοκιγκλοπελειολαγῳοσιραιο­βαφητραγανοπτερύγων... with the same remark that the title is misspelled in that it should be -phalliokinklo- instead of -phalliokigklo- near the end.) As for pronunciation... there probably isn't an official one for English, though it is as straightforward as any other Latin or Greek borrowing. excepting its length... The primary accent would in English probably be on the -e- in -pterygon, and the title's version of the word would come out something like... uh... /ˌlɑpədoˌtɛməkoˌsɛləkoˌɡælioˌkreɪnioˌleɪpsənoˌdrɪmˌhaɪpotrɪˌmɑdoˌsɪlfioˌpærioˌmɛlɪdoˌkædəkəˌkaɪmənoˌkɪklɛpɪˌkɑsəfoˌfædoˌpɛrɪstərəˌlɛktriɑˌnɑptəkəˌfælioˌkɪŋklopəˌleɪoləˌɡoɪosɪˌreoˌbæfəˌtræɡənoˈtɛrɪɡɑn/. —Muke Tever 02:28, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

This is so obviously a hoax word - should it be left or removed?

Although I find such words to be of dubious value, for the sake of peace I would give the contributor the benefit of the doubt. I find no harm in taking him at his word about Aristophanes' usage. In some ancient Greek texts very little concern was given to the spaces which we now use to separate words. At some future time when the Wiktionary reputation has been established, words of this sort may require further consideration. Eclecticology 02:08 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)
Liddell and Scott's Greek Dictionary bothers to list the word. It appears in Aristophanes' Ecclesiazusae, and is retained, transliterated, in English translation. If we keep this word it should be respelled properly (the current spelling is certainly incorrect, at the very least in transliterating "gk" instead of "nk"). Muke Tever 19:08, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
My opinion is that Greek words should only be entered in Greek characters and never in transliteration since there can be multiple ways to transliterated a single word and many, many words which would need transliteration. Hippietrail 05:14, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Transliterations still have a useful role. Although I agree that the primary entry for a Greek word should be in Greek script, I also believe that we should provide tranliterations according to a standardized system. Eclecticology 21:18, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Very true and I try to add transiteration whenever I can. I think the way the Chinese Character entries are done is very good where they actually show every standard (English) transliteration for Chinese, Japanese, and Korean uses. I'm also in favour of a standard system. Is there a standard system which works for both Classical Greek and Modern Greek? Are there other stages of Greek? Are there transliterations which preserve the spelling and others which preserve the pronunciation and if so should we choose one or use both? What about the various ways in which Greek can be accented - can this all be handled? This is a very interesting field for me. Hippietrail 23:01, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Usually you don't find (Ancient) Greek accents in transliteration. The reason for this is that Ancient Greek is transliterated as if it were Latin (whose accent is predictable and therefore unwritten), even to the point of rendering αι and οι as ae and oe. I haven't seen many samples, but I gather Modern Greek tends to be transliterated as if it were Modern Greek. As for stages of Greek, usually it's divided into Mycenaean Greek, Homeric Greek, Classical Greek, Koine Greek, Byzantine Greek (aka Katharevousa), and Modern Greek (aka Demotic). The later versions would transliterate as Modern Greek, and the earlier ones as Classical (except for Mycenaean, which wasn't written with the Greek alphabet, but the Linear B syllabary). Muke Tever 03:22, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
You may find this page interesting:

So what exactly is in this dish, and how is it prepared? :D -- 17:25, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, it is actually encoded in the word itself.
(here we get to divergences...)
  • -karabo- from κάραβος (karabos) "a kind of crab, beetle, or crayfish" (the word is related to scarab
  • -parao- appears to be from παραός (paraos) "eagle"
  • -tyro- is clearly just τυρός (tyros) "cheese".
This could probably be formatted and put in the etymology section... —Muke Tever 15:27, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

RFV 2008[edit]

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Previously at rfd, where EncycloPetey noted that, if one instance of this particular romanization could be found, then the entry could stay, as any English translation of Assemblywomen could reasonably be considered a well known work. I looked at five or six versions, and all of them either did a translation instead of transliteration, or they used a different transliteration (oddly). So, I figure I'd do it all official-like here, so the Wiktionary community has thirty days to find a cite for this word before my delete button goes hot. Incidentally, I think it might be a good idea to keep this as a redirect. Even if the particular spelling does not have any instances of use, I would argue that the mere existence of the 'pedia article makes this worth redirecting instead of deleting outright. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This must be nonsense. A "word" that takes 30 minutes or so to learn cannot be a word. Hekaheka 20:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Move to: lepadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimypotrimmatosilphiotyromelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptokephaliokinklopeleiolagoiosiraiobaphetragalopterygon, which is the spelling used at Perseus from the edition: "Ecclesiazusae". The Complete Greek Drama, vol. 2. Eugene O'Neill, Jr. New York. Random House. 1938. The relevant quotation is:
Very soon we'll be eating lepadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimypotrimmatosilphiotyromelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptokephaliokinklopeleiolagoiosiraiobaphetragalopterygon. Come, quickly, seize hold of a plate, snatch up a cup, and let's run to secure a place at table.
The quote provides context that the word is a food. The quotation from a well-known work (in this case a play by Aristophanes) meets the requirements of CFI. --EncycloPetey 21:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, it's a quotation from a certain translation of a well-known play by Aristophanes; is said translation itself well known? (I'm not saying it isn't, and I'll believe you if you say it is; I'm just pointing out that that's the relevant factor.) —RuakhTALK 01:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't own this edition, so I can't be certain, but if it's the edition I think it is, then it's one of the most widely available in libraries in America. I won't know until I can visit a library with a copy to verify. --EncycloPetey 02:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Whatever else it is, it isn't English. It's a Transliteration, not a Translation. My view - it's one-off nonsense word tha tis never used in any other contect. It no way meets CFI, Delete it. Far more used, current words are deleted. It's rare for me to say delete.--Richardb 01:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Please do not say that it does not meet CFI when it explicitly allows for situations where words are documented from well-known works. We have previously allowed one-time nonce words because CFI explicitly allows this as long as they are documented from a "well-known work". This issue is not simply whether it's ever used in another context, but whether someone will want to look the word up to find out what it means. Since it appears in a translation of a Classical Greek comedy, it may very well be a word someone will want to look up -- in order to find the meaning, or information about any other uses, or simply to know what the original Greek form was. --EncycloPetey 02:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
E.g. certain words from Jabberwocky can be found. (I'm currently resisting the temptation to add them all!) -- Algrif 19:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
EncycloPetey, please let us know when you find out about the edition. If you say that it's a specifically important translation, I'll take your word for it and concede that it meets CFI at the proposed spelling. However, I think the entry should be trimmed quite a bit, as it is simply a transliteration, and all the relevant information is now (or at least should be) at the grc entry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I have confirmed that the translation edited by Eugene O'Neill is the major one used in the US in the 20th century. Perseus calls him "Jr", but that appears to be an error since his father's name was James. O'Neill was a Pulitzer and Nobel Prize winning dramatist responsible for a movement reviving stage traditions of Classical Greek theatre. --EncycloPetey 21:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Moved to the suggested spelling, trimmed, rfv removed. Thanks EP. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

RFV discussion: April–July 2015[edit]

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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

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This word passed RFV back in 2008, when CFI had the "use in a well-known work" option. That option is gone, and this is an English word, so it needs three independent citations to stay. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:34, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd say even that RFV was erroneous. The well-known work in question was written in Ancient Greek, and this is an English word. In fact the English source refers to the Ancient Greek source. They're not the same work! Renard Migrant (talk) 14:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
RFV-failed. The one citation in the entry was:
  • 1938, "Ecclesiazusae" in The Complete Greek Drama, volume 2. (Random House, Eugene O'Neill, ed.):
    Very soon we'll be eating lepadotemachoselachogaleokranioleipsanodrimypotrimmato­silphiotyromelitokatakechymenokichlepikossyphophattoperisteralektryonoptokephaliokinklopeleio­lagoiosiraiobaphetragalopterygon. Come, quickly, seize hold of a plate, snatch up a cup, and let's run to secure a place at table.
It was also said to have the alternative form lopado..., which redirected to it.
- -sche (discuss) 21:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)