Talk:whatever

From Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to navigation Jump to search

A strange character apends itself ot the end of the article and can't be easily edited out. Fred Bauder 19:11 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)ú

I took the reek letter mu off, it was simple enough. why as it hard for you to remove? - fonzy

Good question, editing it out did not work at the time. Fred Bauder 14:27 Jan 1, 2003 (UTC)

Whatsoever[edit]

Seems to be equivalent to whatsoever in casual usage, e.g. it is of no use whatever. Equinox 23:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interjection?[edit]

What in the world suggests that the slang use is an interjection? "Holophrastic" perhaps, as i suppose "Well..." or "Yeah." or "Good!" is. But it's still got its function as pronoun, even when it is used with dismissive or insulting force: The absence of the words that are understood but unspoken --

"Whatever [you care to call it makes no difference]."
"[I'm not going waste energy responding to] whatever [else you say]."
(In the sarcastic usage:) "[You can count me to agree with] whatever [else you want to say about it]!

-- doesn't change the word's grammatical role, any more than

You can do what you want [to do].

is anything but a sentence.
I'm merging the "Interjection" material into the "Pronoun" section.
--Jerzy•t 06:09, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Postpositive adjective'?[edit]

whatever (comparative more whatever, superlative most whatever)

  1. (postpositive) At all, absolutely, whatsoever.
    There is no point whatever in going on with this discussion.

Surely 'whatever' is an adverb here, not an adjective? – Fyrius (talk) 12:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Fyrius: https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=whatever --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyrius: but then again https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/whatever_2 --Backinstadiums (talk) 16:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When a noun followed by a restrictive clause is preceded by “whichever” or “whatever”, it is incorrect to introduce the clause with *that*[edit]

When a noun followed by a restrictive clause is preceded by whichever or whatever, it is incorrect to introduce the clause with that in formal writing: Whatever book (*that) you want to look at will be sent to your office or Whichever book (*that) costs less is fine with us.
https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=whatever

What are the grammatical reasons for this? --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason to put that in such phrases. Equinox ◑ 00:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some people do. It doesn't sound too strange to me, though I don't think I would say or write it. DCDuring (talk) 05:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@DCDuring what about what and which? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:21, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

whatever you do[edit]

​used to warn somebody not to do something under any circumstances: Don't tell Paul, whatever you do! --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:07, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

papers, magazines, or whatever.[edit]

(used at the end of a list) any or any one of a number of things whether known or not: papers, magazines, or whatever. --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:28, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFV discussion: November–December 2021[edit]

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

"Adverb" definition": "(with negative) At all, of any kind; whatsoever."

I'd like to see some uses that were without a noun/nominal phrase that could be considered the modificand. DCDuring (talk) 19:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also Wiktionary:Tea_room/2021/November#whatever. Examples of this sense not in association with a noun may not exist, and so it may come down to an opinion about whether "whatever" modifies the noun (as adj) or modifies an actual or implied/embedded negation operator (as adv). Per the tea room discussion, in my personal opinion the latter applies, so in my opinion the adverb sense is already verified by examples such as "no point whatever". However, I will also point out again here that I do not see "of any kind" as the definition of an adverb, so I think that part should be changed. Mihia (talk) 19:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC) See also Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/English#whatever.[reply]
To me they look like they do modify an NP. I haven't seen a case in which whatever in this sense is adverbial. I could be wrong or the definition might just need to be adjusted. DCDuring (talk) 05:08, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As "of any kind" appears to be a stumbling block, I have removed what I put in. There is no question in my mind that, when modifying a negative, this is an adverb. DonnanZ (talk) 11:20, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is an issue that can be resolved in RFV. We all know what the usage looks like, there is nothing to find. It is a question of whether that usage is adverbial (which I tend to believe) or adjectival (which seems a stretch to me). Adverbs have always been the sort of catch-all category for modifiers that don't clearly modify a noun, and frankly, I don't think whatever in this sense does clearly modify the noun. Clearly @DCDuring sees this in the opposite way. I would refer this to the tearoom discussion, or maybe to RFD (one of those two should be deleted). Kiwima (talk) 04:37, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As referred to above, there is a current RFD for the adjective. DonnanZ (talk) 23:46, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While we do know what the noun-associated usage looks like, e.g. "there is no point whatever", the original RFV was asking for other types, I guess such as verb-associated ones, for example along the lines of how we can say "I can't play the violin at all", "I can't play the violin whatever" presumably having been rejected as not good English. Mihia (talk) 19:02, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]


@kiwima: If, per your comment above, you tend to believe that this usage is adverbial, which would entail deleting the adjectival sense, would you consider voting at Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/English#whatever so we can try to close that off sooner rather than later? Mihia (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RFD discussion: November–December 2021[edit]

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

RFD adjective sense "At all, absolutely, whatsoever". Per Wiktionary:Tea_room/2021/November#whatever, the sense covered here is apparently adverbial, not adjectival. The examples can be moved to the corresponding adverb sense. Mihia (talk) 13:09, 26 November 2021 (UTC) See also Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/English#whatever.[reply]

Well, I raised that discussion, so I agree - delete that sense. The examples could be transferred to the adverb now - is there any need to wait? DonnanZ (talk) 13:30, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the verb that’s being modified? It seems pretty clear that the adjective sense should stay and, contrary to what most seem to think on here, the adverb sense should be deleted (so definitely keep). Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:10, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should look at the definition for adverb. They don't only modify verbs, in this case 'whatever' modifies a negative, like no, none, nothing. DonnanZ (talk) 09:46, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit conflict) Adverbs do not only modify verbs. In this case it is not a verb that is modified but the negation modifier, IMO. Thus, "no point whatever" is not IMO talking about a kind or type of point that is "whatever" and saying that there are none of these, which is what the adjectival interpretation would imply, but in fact "whatever" associates with "no" to emphasise the absolute way in which "no" applies. "no ... whatever" can be considered a phrase, or unit of meaning, just that its "object" is inserted between the two words. Mihia (talk) 09:55, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, another way to explain the adj interpretation might be to have "whatever" modify "no point". Thus "there is no point whatever" would mean that there is "no point", and this "no point" somehow had a quality of being "whatever". I mention this interpretation only to dismiss it as equally implausible, not to say impossible, as the idea that "whatever" modifies "point". Mihia (talk) 11:49, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just one further point having read Donnanz's reply. In the case of "nothing whatever" and "none whatever", for the adverbial explanation to work, it seems that these words do have to be decomposed into "no thing" and "no + noun". This is slightly unfortunate, but IMO does not fundamentally undermine the argument for adverb. Mihia (talk) 09:59, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It was the phrase "but nothing whatever had been done" (included in the quote for the adverb which I added) that kicked this whole debate off. DonnanZ (talk) 10:38, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did come across a quote by William Lloyd Garrison: "There must be no compromise with slavery - none whatever." [1] DonnanZ (talk) 12:55, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think in this case we can see that "none whatever" = "no compromise whatever", and on that basis explain "whatever" as adverbially modifying the "no" component embedded in "none". If it is allowed that an adverb can modify a (pro)noun directly then this machination wouldn't be necessary, but I personally do not accept such a thing, despite certain alleged examples. In any case, it seems far-fetched that "whatever" could be a different PoS in "none whatever" than in "no compromise whatever". Mihia (talk) 14:53, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did notice the way that it was said it placed emphasis on no compromise. I accept that, but the point is it can be used in such a case. DonnanZ (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, well, for sure. There is no doubt that it is correct English. Mihia (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note also the parallel situation with "any". "You can have any colour whatever" is explained IMO as "any ... whatever" being a modifier, with adverbial "whatever", not as "whatever" modifying "colour" and "any" modifying "colour whatever". Mihia (talk) 11:09, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It’s an unusual case but I’d still say that ‘whatever’ qualifies/modifies the preceding noun, even if it doesn’t describe it, so is an adjective (though our entry for adverb does say that adverbs can modify verbs, adverbs, adjectives and on rare occasions nouns or noun phrases, so on that basis it could be argued that this is one of those rare occasions.). Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:28, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To complicate things further, we have at all listed as a prepositional phrase but surely it should be the same PoS as whatever, at least in the instances that ‘whatever’ is substitutable? I’ve also raised the issue of whether adverbs modify noun phrases on the talk page for adverb, as the Wikipedia article itself is unclear on this. Overlordnat1 (talk) 11:25, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, Wiktionary has an obsession with prepositional phrases, presumably so defined when a preposition is included in the phrase (in this case, at), I think this can be misleading. Lexico just calls it a phrase (used negatively), but I don't think a definition needs to match the PoS, used here for the "adjective", and also for the adverb. DonnanZ (talk) 15:29, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, "at all" in e.g. "there is no point at all" is clearly adverbial, but then I also believe that "whatever" in "there is no point whatever" is clearly adverbial. Presumably there is no dispute that "at all" is adverbial when applied to a verb, e.g. "I can't play the violin at all". The "prepositional phrase" heading is useful when phrases can be both adjectival or adverbial, or when usage falls into a grey area, to avoid having to repeat the same information under two different PoS headings or arbitrate murky or disputed usages. However, in the case of "at all", I cannot think of any adjectival use, or even any debatable cases, so, unless someone can demonstrate how adjectival use is possible, I would support changing the PoS of "at all" to adverb. Mihia (talk) 16:41, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The more I think about it, the more I think ‘whatever’ is an adverb after all, as either it qualifies a noun phrase or in a sentence like ‘There is no point whatever in doing that’, it simply qualifies/modifies ‘is’ (providing we consider emphasis to come under the umbrella of qualification, along with description and limitation). Similarly ‘at all’ should be labelled as an adverb too. Overlordnat1 (talk) 18:07, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your conclusion, but not your suggestion that whatever modifies "is". I am increasingly persuaded that "no ... whatever" functions as a modifier, and I think examples such as "No advantage whatever came of it" and "What point is there?" / "No point whatever" bolster the case that "no ... whatever" is a self-sufficient phrase that must be explained without reference to any verb. Mihia (talk) 20:42, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The more I look at it, the more confused I get. It could perhaps be argued that in your examples ‘whatever’ refers to an implied verb but looking through the results for whatever on OneLook we see that dictionaries are split over whether it’s an adverb or adjective and interestingly Collins online says it’s an adverb but my physical 2005 edition of Collins says it’s a postpositive adjective! We should definitely change the PoS of at all from preposition to whatever we decide on for whatever when we’ve done though. Overlordnat1 (talk) 01:53, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Overlordnat1: If you are now undecided, would you consider striking your "definitely keep" vote above? Mihia (talk) 22:04, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Overlordnat1 (talk) 22:25, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I noticed that with Collins, what I call "mixed messaging". DonnanZ (talk) 17:44, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

delete. I agree that it is an adverb. Adverbs do not just modify verbs, they are a sort of catch-all for modifiers that do not modify nouns. Consider "completely green", which is an adverb that modifies an adjective. Kiwima (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve just relabelled in any way, shape, or form to adverb too. Overlordnat1 (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Retrieved from "https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:whatever&oldid=65046644"