Old Norse Verbs

Fragment of a discussion from User talk:Rua
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I created {{non-conj-strong}} and added it to bera and hjalpa. It takes four main parameters, corresponding to the stems of the four principal parts: 1=present, 2=past singular, 3=past plural, 4=past participle. Each of those has (as far as necessary) extra versions that are created by putting i or u after the number, to indicate the i-umlauted or u-umlauted variety of that stem. So 1i is the present stem with i-umlaut, 1u is the present stem with u-umlaut, and so on. The template also takes a class= parameter, which is the strong verb class. This doesn't affect the forms, it just changes the title and the category.

CodeCat16:26, 29 July 2013

Thank you. This would certainly make all the work easier. However, I don't exactly know what would muna's mediopassive form be like, since preterite-present forms don't follow all the rules and there's not much information about that. If you could fill them out, I'd be grateful.

Myndfrea (talk)16:49, 29 July 2013

From what I can see, none of the preterite-present verbs has mediopassive forms. So when you create a table for them (which will probably be based on {{non-conj-strong}}) then you should just leave them out.

I'd appreciate it if you could keep an eye on the forms generated by the table. Not all of them may be correct yet, some things probably still need to be adjusted.

CodeCat16:52, 29 July 2013

I've tried to make the templates of other weak verb classes and adjectives. However, right now I don't exactly understand how to encode all the umlaut changes. I would really appreciate if you could help with these.

Myndfrea (talk)15:58, 30 July 2013

Could you make something and see how far you get? Then I can understand better where to help.

CodeCat16:05, 30 July 2013

I'll try to make something with adjectives, but I don't get the principles of the weak verbs. It is these templates I'm asking for.

Myndfrea (talk)16:53, 30 July 2013

Which principles do you mean exactly? Could you not copy {{non-conj-weak2}} to {{non-conj-weak1}} and adjust it as necessary? Then, when you think you don't know how to go any further, save the work you already did, and then come to me. Is that ok?

CodeCat16:55, 30 July 2013

Yeah, but, first of all, weak verbs of 1 class are divided into verbs with long and short stems. Should I make separate tables or combine them somehow?

Myndfrea (talk)17:49, 30 July 2013

Which differences are there between the two types, ending-wise?

CodeCat17:50, 30 July 2013

Long has -i- in the stem, while short sometimes interchanges to -j- or nothing. Edit: Another thing is that some verbs, like biðja, have a j-infixed stem, and -j- tends to disappear in some forms. Maybe it's best to just use the common template for such irregularities?

Myndfrea (talk)05:54, 31 July 2013

I think making one for just the long stems is ok for now, and then we can see what adjustments are needed to make it support short stems too.

CodeCat11:22, 31 July 2013

I made a template for weak verbs 1 with short stems, and I guess I'll make the one with long stems later. The verb biðja is, however, of the strong V class. I guess I'll need to make a special table for j-infixed stems of srong verbs. What truly baffles me is adjectives - the table given for Icelandic adjectives is absolutely non-understandable. Could you help me with these?

Myndfrea (talk)04:49, 2 August 2013

User:Anglom is currently working on a set of tables for Old English adjectives. I think they would work well for Old Norse too. You can ask them if they can help you adapt them (which won't take much work).

For the j-infixed verbs I think a separate template would be best, {{non-conj-strong-j}}. You can use {{non-conj-strong}} as a base, but change the endings of the present to match those of {{non-conj-weak1}}. I would wait until {{non-conj-weak1}} is finished though, otherwise you'll have to edit them both all the time.

CodeCat10:47, 2 August 2013

The verbs aren't exactly the problem. I figured out the pattern of the j-infixed verbs. However, guessing from [1], the adjective forms are for the most part irregular, with u-umlaut, -nr-, -lr- assimilation and syncope often taking place. Maybe it would be better having different templates for some of these processes, like (again) for j-infixed adjectives, which seem to have a different life of their own?

Myndfrea (talk)06:46, 3 August 2013

Doesn't the assimilation affect nouns and verbs too? Strong verbs have it in the 2nd and 3rd person singular. I agree though that this can become rather complicated. The real best solution would be to use a module, because then you could do replacements of parts of the stem and such, so assimilation and umlaut could become automatic.

CodeCat11:35, 3 August 2013