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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
A few Finnish conjugations labeled declensions in en-wikt615:17, 5 July 2015
Eigenwert008:55, 5 July 2015
Template question1012:38, 4 July 2015
stød522:09, 29 June 2015
Syllables in Dutch021:29, 29 June 2015
Category:en:Counties and regions of England and Category:en:Counties of England011:51, 20 June 2015
About your reversal of my edit016:24, 18 June 2015
Question mark in the Finnish declencion tables008:12, 17 June 2015
Small error in Finnish conjugation tables101:08, 15 June 2015
Unnecessary parameter?418:05, 12 June 2015
Categories418:04, 12 June 2015
pl.mov2veron-012:47, 10 June 2015
Your edit on Stoppel117:06, 8 June 2015
over dezelde/1kam scheren014:03, 7 June 2015
fi-IPA -template005:44, 7 June 2015
over dezelde/1kam scheren106:41, 6 June 2015
Syriac diacritics415:59, 4 June 2015
Module:jdt-translit errors519:37, 27 May 2015
Reducing impact from Module:parameters problems215:36, 24 May 2015
Category:zh:Medicine in traditional script111:30, 23 May 2015
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A few Finnish conjugations labeled declensions in en-wikt

I'm referring this to you because I haven't done anything in Wiktionary for about 4 years and I'm not sure whether this needs fixing on the level of individual pages or elsewhere.

Examining some 800-900 of the verbs I consider to be of most pedagogical relevance, I came across 6 (not all in one kotus group) where the Conjugation section of the page is labeled Declension instead, which has some bearing on automated parsing.

Those are kaivata, karata, piristää, pitkästyttää, virnistää, and vääristää.

None of the category pages or verb pages I looked at have discussion pages. At some point in the past, I must have participated on some central discussion page for Finnish entries, but I can't recall or find where that would be. Where would I look to see all discussion about Finnish pages in en.wiktionary?

Onyx~enwiktionary (talk)16:15, 2 July 2015

If we label them all "Inflection" then we won't have this problem anymore. I've already been using "Inflection" for a while now.

CodeCat16:20, 2 July 2015

Ah, now I see additional variability. I was referring to the section heading from the source line with equal signs, but I think you may be referring to the generated first line of the inflection table. Only now I notice that some of those tables ( e.g. olla) say "Conjugation" and others (e.g. sanoa) say "Inflection", which I had taken to be universal.

FWIW, I was liking Conjugation as the section name and Inflection as the start of the table. It's hard to shake establishment terminology (conujugation/declension) for the big picture, but "inflection" in the nuts-and-bolts table does make sense, plus it's a great marker in the text. Conversationally, I mostly stick to "inflection" because I'm mostly referring to the detailed process.

Onyx~enwiktionary (talk)16:50, 2 July 2015

No I was talking about the actual section heading. For some languages such as Latin, we've been using this heading for a long time. So I've decided to use it exclusively now, for all languages.

I was actually thinking of removing "inflection of" from the table header. After all, it doesn't really add anything useful if the heading is already labelled inflection/conjugation/declension. It would also leave more room for the inflection type.

CodeCat17:12, 2 July 2015

Also, what do all of the ˣ characters after entries in these conjugation tables mean? (For instance suunnitella.) I'm not seeing them in any kind of legend.

Onyx~enwiktionary (talk)17:53, 2 July 2015

They indicate that the form ends with final gemination for most speakers.

CodeCat17:54, 2 July 2015
 
 
 
 

I re-labeled these sections as "Conjugation". If you encounter more of these, you may edit them yourself.

Hekaheka (talk)15:17, 5 July 2015
 

Eigenwert: Why the removal of content? The content you edited out doesn't strike me as "wertlos," so it is strange to see it be deleted and replaced with nothing. Wondering what prompted this edit. Thanks!

Aperiarcam (talk)08:55, 5 July 2015

Template question

Hi, could you take a look at this diff? I'm lost as to why I can't stick a simple #if in there.

(Basically the idea is that 1st decl. monosyllables often keep their -s in vocative: tēvs!, dēls!, etc. I also wanted to add an optional vowel dropping for some feminine kinship terms and -ītis, -īte diminutives, to have, e.g., both māte! and māt! / puisīti!, puisīt!, etc.)

Neitrāls vārds (talk)11:33, 4 July 2015

I've made a small change now, this should work.

CodeCat11:37, 4 July 2015

Is giving "1" to it OK? As in "keep-s=1". It doesn't appear to be working in tēvs.

Neitrāls vārds (talk)11:49, 4 July 2015

I'm puzzled by it as well. It should work but I'm not seeing why it isn't...

CodeCat11:57, 4 July 2015
 

I see it now. The entry is calling {{lv-decl-noun}} but the template is called {{lv-decl-noun-1}}.

CodeCat12:00, 4 July 2015

Does this mean that it needs to be an unnamed, ordered parameter to pass through that "wrapper" template to {{lv-decl-noun-1}}?

Neitrāls vārds (talk)12:14, 4 July 2015

I'm not sure why the wrapper template is even needed. It doesn't appear to do anything useful at all. Could you not just use {{lv-decl-noun-1}} directly?

CodeCat12:15, 4 July 2015
 
 
 
 
 

/IPA/ (phonemic transcription) don't include information such as the stop consonant being lenis. That's what you've got [IPA] for. Check up [1], table of allophones. You're preserving falsifications, sorry to say.

87.63.114.21021:46, 29 June 2015

If you want to change that in hundreds or thousands of entries, you'll need to discuss it with other Danish editors first.

CodeCat21:49, 29 June 2015

Btw, I am Danish. Common Danish words without lenis transcriptions: [1] [2] [3] [4] etc etc. This is convention. Peter238 made a mistake in Nicolai of the opposite form [5] - he is not being consistent and should stay away from Danish entries. I don't see Danish in his Babel. Sorry to say, but you made the revert - I know, in good meaning - but in error.

87.63.114.21021:57, 29 June 2015

That is: No lenis marking for phonemic transcription, but with lenis with phonetic transcriptions.

87.63.114.21021:59, 29 June 2015

So the matter isn't whether if I want to change that 'in hundreds or thousands of entries', but rather Peter238 deviating from the conventions by adding lenis markings to phonemic transcriptions, and thus making a mess (like the Nicolai-example).

87.63.114.21022:08, 29 June 2015

I'm just following the conventions. Sorry if I'm spamming your discussion inbox.

87.63.114.21022:09, 29 June 2015
 
 
 
 
 

Syllables in Dutch

Have you got a source which says that the lax vowels can occur in coda? That looks Swedish/Norwegian to me, definitely not Dutch/English/German.

Peter238 (talk)21:29, 29 June 2015

You seem to have created these two within minutes of each other - care to weigh in here?

Keith the Koala (talk)11:51, 20 June 2015

About your reversal of my edit

Why isn't it ok to add pictures with captions on proto germanic pages? And why doesn't that supposed rule apply to pages with non-constructed languages? (Example being cyning for Old English.)

2.127.25.4616:24, 18 June 2015

Question mark in the Finnish declencion tables

I think the little question mark after "accusative-nom" looks annoying and it does not convey any meaningful message. Why wouldn't you just remove it?

Hekaheka (talk)08:12, 17 June 2015

Small error in Finnish conjugation tables

There's an error in the conditional mood - perfect - positive - 3rd person plural: "ovisivat" should be "olisivat".

Hekaheka (talk)23:17, 14 June 2015

Fixed.

CodeCat01:08, 15 June 2015
 

Unnecessary parameter?

Hi, MewBot has been removing "unnecessary" type-parameters from Finnish "fi-form of" -entries. While I tend to agree that these parameters are not only unnecessary but a pain in the ass, the documentation page of that template states that "Except for type all parameters can be omitted.", I guess you should change that statement before you continue.

Hekaheka (talk)22:39, 8 June 2015

I've updated the documentation, thank you. Do you think it would be useful if abbreviations could be used, like those that {{inflection of}} supports?

CodeCat22:44, 8 June 2015
Edited by another user.
Last edit: 18:05, 12 June 2015

Yes, I have thought of it many times, but with my template-writing skills it is less cumbersome to continue writing the cases out. Also, it is sometimes useful to have the free-text option for some noun and pronoun forms which are not considered cases, such as prolative form of maa:

  1. Prolative form of maa (by land, over land).
Hekaheka (talk)03:56, 9 June 2015

Forgot to mention that the prolative of maa is maitse.

Hekaheka (talk)03:58, 9 June 2015

I withdraw the comment on free text. It is probably more practical to classify maitse as adverb. One might mention the prolative-ness in the etymology section.

Hekaheka (talk)04:05, 9 June 2015
 
 
 
 

Categories

Did you have a problem with my choice of category, or with the mere fact that the page was placed in any category?

WikiTiki8917:57, 12 June 2015

The choice of category. It's not nice to use someone else's userspace like that. Keep in mind that the owner of the userspace is free to edit it as they wish; that includes removing categories from it.

CodeCat17:58, 12 June 2015

Alright, well you could have just said something rather than starting a revert war. It's just that your category was the only testing category I found. We should have something like Category:Test as general purpose testing category.

WikiTiki8918:00, 12 June 2015
 
 
 

I've sort of reverted your edit on "Stoppel", except that I put the Latin more towards the front as you had done.

Firstly, it was not correct to say "the High German form was Middle High German stupfel", because Central German is also High German, and it uses "Stoppel".

Secondly, in modern German -- which is not a standardized dialect, but an artificial amalgam of dialects -- we very often have the case that a word comes out with a certain consonantal "irregularity" in comparison to the Upper German-based MHG. But while this is so, it's still essentially the same word and thus a native one. Because the forms Stupfel, Stopfel, Stuppel, Stoppel were all around for some while, written, read, and reproduced, and eventually Stoppel happened to become standardized.

I've been working on these "irregular" consonantisms more or less systematically for some while, and thus far I have chosen to give the MHG-OHG lineage, and then explain the specific form according to its dialectal background (usually that is Central and/or Low German). This is also what the etymological dictionaries do in many or most cases. Thereby, I treat the word as being derived both from Middle High German and Middle Low German, not as a borrowing from the latter.

I only do this in cases where the identity of different dialectal forms was obvious to writers in the formative period of modern German, who were generally quite aware of the dialectal differences. I wouldn't do it if two stems happened to be cognates, but the identity wasn't obvious (because maybe the word had become archaic in Upper German, or the Low German form was just too different). All of this, of course, based on the standard literature.

You don't need to answer, unless you disagree with this practice.

Kolmiel (talk)17:05, 8 June 2015

What I don't agree with is saying that the word comes from MHG "stupfel". That's just clearly wrong.

CodeCat17:06, 8 June 2015
 

over dezelde/1kam scheren

sb.deletedit-kanuvaluk?

ps.itryd2MODIFYmypost-but'dntsave:/

220.136.224.20114:03, 7 June 2015

fi-IPA -template

I think you should read this [1] together with the links provided in that article, and evaluate whether this new template provides a sufficient tool for adding IPA pronunciations for Finnish.

Hekaheka (talk)05:44, 7 June 2015

over dezelde/1kam scheren

uzoDELETED??[CONTENT=overly generaliz @chuck entz118.160.168.113 06:08, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

118.160.168.11306:08, 6 June 2015
@Chuck Entz [owdouedit 1sowncomnt here??
118.160.168.11306:41, 6 June 2015
 

Syriac diacritics

I added a combining diaeresis filter to "arc" and "syc", but it does not seem to work: ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ should produce a link to ܐܪܡܝܐ. The other diacritics I added work fine. Do you know what is wrong? Does the combining diaeresis somehow have a special meaning in a square bracket block in Lua regular expressions?

WikiTiki8914:33, 4 June 2015

No, combining diacritics work fine. Maybe it's not actually the right character?

CodeCat14:51, 4 June 2015

It is definitely the right character U+0308. I tested it to make sure, and u(0x0308) produces the same character that is in the Syriac word above.

WikiTiki8914:55, 4 June 2015
 

There is probably a bug in Lua's regex implementation. I moved the combining diaeresis to the beginning of the bracket block and now it works. I tested it and it doesn't work in any other position.

WikiTiki8915:08, 4 June 2015

Strange. Glad that you got it working anyway.

CodeCat15:59, 4 June 2015
 
 
 

What am I doing wrong here: ḩəsb?

WikiTiki8918:16, 27 May 2015

"lang" is nil.

CodeCat18:26, 27 May 2015

Ok. So what's the point of having the lang and sc arguments to the tr function if nothing is even passed to them?

WikiTiki8918:29, 27 May 2015
 

And what's wrong now that lang is not nil?

WikiTiki8918:32, 27 May 2015

I figured it out. Transliteration functions receive strings for lang and sc. So you need to retrieve the language and script objects first.

This really shouldn't be this way though. It was left like this because trying to change it would have broken the transliteration modules for a while until everything was updated.

CodeCat19:28, 27 May 2015

Ok thanks!

WikiTiki8919:37, 27 May 2015
 
 
 
 

Reducing impact from Module:parameters problems

There's nothing anyone can do about all the "remove_holes" module errors, but the parameter-based ones are still popping up all the time, and many are no-brainer bot fodder. These are the ones I'm seeing the most of:

  • {{l|...|lang= / {{m|...|lang= / {{label=|...|lang=
  • |}} and other empty parameters with no positional parameters following.
  • Sc= / SC=
  • |ланг=сч and other parameters with names in the wrong script (my personal favorite: |сц=Латинх ).
  • sg= instead of head=
  • pl= in {{head}} instead of plural|

Getting rid of those should lighten the load of module errors by dozens a day, and leave mostly the quick ones that just need a null edit to clear.

Chuck Entz (talk)02:54, 24 May 2015

I have been checking and fixing these during the day. But I can't do it when I'm asleep, so that's when they build up.

CodeCat11:21, 24 May 2015

No, I was talking about a preemptive bot run based on the dumps, to get them before the edit queue gets to them. These have been here for years, so we don't need to worry about the dumps being out of date. This is a parameter change, just like any number of ones that you've had MewBot implement- it's just not a specific one. It would be nice to not have these continue to dribble in even after the remove_holes ones have run their course.

Chuck Entz (talk)15:36, 24 May 2015
 
 

Re: diff. I thought we had stopped creating script-specific topical categories, since the catboilers can't handle them (at least, I've never been able to get such categories to work, and a search for "in traditional script" in categories shows nothing successfully using them). Besides which, the Chinese entries are now supposed to be set up to have everything in the traditional-script version and a soft redirect in the simplified-script version.

Chuck Entz (talk)03:31, 23 May 2015

I just fixed the parameter, I don't really follow all the changes for Chinese.

CodeCat11:30, 23 May 2015
 
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