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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
Proto-Germanic words221:37, 26 March 2015
Proto-Finnic k-stems314:42, 26 March 2015
afvraagde(n)411:43, 22 March 2015
Problems arisen from your rewriting of Module:la-pronunc114:17, 21 March 2015
ununenium118:06, 15 March 2015
Edits to Module:fr-headword214:38, 14 March 2015
Visual Editor list415:04, 13 March 2015
Ludian113:34, 12 March 2015
Template:sa-verb-pres008:58, 7 March 2015
Finnish impersonal verbs201:51, 6 March 2015
Trouble adding a new label to Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names219:45, 3 March 2015
(Re-)implementing f1tr=, etc. for {{temp|head}}?313:45, 2 March 2015
Could you check this over1513:36, 2 March 2015
Grease pit idea120:09, 18 February 2015
Module:en-headword016:57, 16 February 2015
ABC header for Norwegian415:56, 15 February 2015
Alternative form of007:11, 14 February 2015
Template:es-noun015:50, 8 February 2015
Template:es-noun015:50, 8 February 2015
Template:ast-adj-mf and Template:ast-adj015:47, 8 February 2015
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Proto-Germanic words

Hello, when you create Proto-Germanic words, you do it in this way (or have done in the past at least):

It should be :

Neither Nynorsk or Bokmål is "the real Norwegian".

Dreysman (talk)20:41, 26 March 2015

I did that based on the entries we had available at the time.

CodeCat20:52, 26 March 2015

Okay, I understand.

Dreysman (talk)21:37, 26 March 2015

Proto-Finnic k-stems

I don't remember if this came up before, but looking at *persek, it seems your declension module is attempting to treat this as equivalent to a vowel stem **perseke-. The partitive, however, should be *persettä (or, since we are keeping *kt and *ht separate, perhaps rather *persektä). Possibly the same should go for even the essive, though this is hard to say, being a rare case it has been analogically modified in several languages.

Tropylium (talk)22:45, 23 March 2015

I noticed this just a few days ago, but I wasn't sure if this should also apply to two-syllable stems like *mäki. The only two-syllable stems ending in -ke- that have syncope, at least that I know of, are *tektäk and *näktäk. So what should be done in this case?

CodeCat00:18, 24 March 2015

Those seem to be exceptions, yes. Words like *mäki usually do not have any consonant-stem forms. It seems like this is a question of syllable count: there are no trisyllabic *e-stems, and aside from *mees no monosyllabic "pure" consonant stems.

Tropylium (talk)07:04, 26 March 2015

I guess that's the problem then. The module currently doesn't distinguish between consonant and e-stems, nor does it really consider the number of syllables. Of course that's partly a matter of practicality; these all fell together in Finnic for the most part due to syncope and apocope.

There are some trisyllabic stems that we know used to be e-stems, though. These are the ones that show assibilation of -t > -c in the nominative singular, like the ordinal numbers and the words of the Finnish kalleus type. These contrast with kevät and tuhat which have no assibilation and thus were presumably true consonant stems.

The module itself tells these apart through the parameter given to it: if it includes the final -e as part of the stem or not. If it's included, it's syncopated/apocopated by the module in the appropriate places, but triggers assibilation beforehand. If it's not included, epenthetic -e- is added in the appropriate places, but there is no apocope and therefore no assibilation. This behaviour can presumably be used for k-stems: it can be made so that -kt- does not get epenthesized to -ket- in the partitive, but -ket- does not get syncopated to -kt- either. That way, the correct partitive is used for the consonantal k-stems and also for the two-syllable e-stems like *mäki; these simply have stems in -k- and -ke- respectively.

The two exceptional verbs are treated as an exception in the module: if the stem equals näke- or teke-, then syncopate -ket- to -kt-. This rule seems to work, but it does beg the larger question of why this happened in Finnic in the first place, while other stems like make- were unaffected.

CodeCat14:42, 26 March 2015


Hello CodeCat, sorry but these forms simply do not exist.

De Wikischim (talk)21:18, 20 March 2015

They are used, so they do exist.

CodeCat21:25, 20 March 2015

They are NOT used. "Vraagde" is only very archaic Dutch, while "afvraagde" has never existed.

De Wikischim (talk)21:04, 21 March 2015

I found uses of it on Google Books, so it does exist.

CodeCat21:08, 21 March 2015

There is only one hit on googlebooks, and it is very obsolete. So anyway "afvraagde" is not modern Dutch. An annotation about that should at least be made.

De Wikischim (talk)11:43, 22 March 2015

Problems arisen from your rewriting of Module:la-pronunc

As User:Erutuon has pointed out in the documentation,

kc_kennylau (talk)09:32, 21 March 2015

Those are not problems, just unpredictable aspects of Latin spelling. You simply have to compensate for them by adding dots to break up syllables or replacing i with j.

CodeCat14:17, 21 March 2015

It as not been confirmed though they think they have made it in a reactor.

Astroroman (talk)18:01, 15 March 2015

Something can have a word for it even if it hasn't been made yet. Compare time machine.

CodeCat18:06, 15 March 2015

After Ungoliant's edit to the module, there were no module errors. Now there are over 5,000, and it's increasing by the second. Please take a look at your code.

Chuck Entz (talk)02:56, 14 March 2015

I reverted your edits as a first-aid measure, and the module errors are all gone. Feel free to reinstate and fix them- when you have time to troubleshoot and check for side-effects.

Chuck Entz (talk)03:38, 14 March 2015

Sorry, I should have checked. I fixed the mistake now.

CodeCat14:38, 14 March 2015

Visual Editor list

CodeCat, I am trying to modify a VisualEditor list. However, when I try to save it, it says it contains errors. I don’t see any errors. Is it balking at complex letters such as ą́, which is a composite made up of ą + ́ ? This is what I’m trying to insert: "Áábée": { "ʼ" : "ʼ", "Á" : "Á", "á" : "á", "Ą" : "Ą", "ą" : "ą", "Ą́" : "Ą́", "ą́" : "ą́", "É" : "É", "é" : "é", "Ę" : "Ę", "ę" : "ę", "Ę́" : "Ę́", "ę́" : "ę́", "Í" : "Í", "í" : "í", "Į" : "Į", "į" : "į", "Į́" : "Į́", "į́" : "į́", "Ó" : "Ó", "ó" : "ó", "Ǫ" : "Ǫ", "ǫ" : "ǫ", "Ǫ́" : "Ǫ́", "ǫ́" : "ǫ́", "Ń" : "Ń", "ń" : "ń", "Ł" : "Ł", "ł" : "ł", },

06:29, 13 March 2015

I'm not sure what a VisualEditor list is. Can you show me what page it is you're trying to modify?

CodeCat13:28, 13 March 2015

The page is here: w:nv:MediaWiki:Visualeditor-specialcharinspector-characterlist-insert. A message about the editor is here: w:nv:Wikiibíídiiya:Áłah náʼádleehdi‎#Feedback request: VisualEditor's special character inserter.

In fact, we have such a list right here, at MediaWiki:Visualeditor-specialcharinspector-characterlist-insert.

—Stephen (Talk)14:48, 13 March 2015

Maybe it doesn't like the comma before the }?

CodeCat14:57, 13 March 2015

Yes, that was it. Thanks!

—Stephen (Talk)15:04, 13 March 2015

I noticed that Ludian (langcode lud) is the last Finnic language variety that we don't have language data for. Would you mind updating Module:languages/data3/l? "Ludian" seems to be preferred synonym by the the Ludian Society, so we should probably use that as well. Other names used in English include "Lude" and "Ludic".

(Whether it should be treated independently might be worth discussion at some point though. I am aware of no unique defining features of Ludian; it's essentially a group of transitional dialects between Veps and Karelian.)

Tropylium (talk)08:07, 12 March 2015

Ok, I've updated it.

If we do decide it's not worth treating separately, then we have to consider what to treat it as. Is it ultimately Veps, or do we call it Karelian?

CodeCat13:34, 12 March 2015


If you kindly, could you fix the category in Template:sa-verb-pres? I don't know know what to do about it.

KoreanQuoter (talk)08:58, 7 March 2015

Finnish impersonal verbs

I guess every language has many impersonal verbs for which only the 3rd person is used - a typical example could be sataa (to rain). 1st and 2nd person forms such as minä sadan, sinä sadat, minä sadoin are grammatically possible but illogical. Do you think you could develop the Module:fi-verb so that by adding a qualifier, the conjugation table would show only the 3rd person forms? For example, in case of sataa, the conjugation template could look like this:


Hekaheka (talk)22:15, 22 December 2014

If they are possible, then they should be shown because someone might occasionally use them. A sentence like "we rained down on them like hailstones" is perfectly valid in English and not at all illogical, just poetic. The same probably applies for Finnish?

CodeCat22:17, 22 December 2014

@Hekaheka, CodeCat: Sorry for commenting so late, but: it depends on attestation, doesn't it? Some verbs are probably used poetically outside of the third person, others aren't. For the ones that are truly impersonal, it should indeed be possible to suppress the invalid first- and second-person forms... compare regnen (used poetically in the first and second person) and fisseln (only used in the third person).

- -sche (discuss)01:47, 6 March 2015

Hi CodeCat. I tried adding "provinces of the Roman Empire" as a label to Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names, but {{topic cat|…|provinces of the Roman Empire}} ended up generating the error message "Lua error in Module:category_tree at line 126: attempt to index field 'name' (a nil value)" in Category:en:Provinces of the Roman Empire, Category:fr:Provinces of the Roman Empire, and Category:la:Provinces of the Roman Empire. I don't understand what I've done wrong; could you explain to me how to fix this, please?

 — I.S.M.E.T.A.14:09, 3 March 2015

It's because there is no category "Roman Empire" yet.

CodeCat17:09, 3 March 2015

Thanks. I've fixed it now. :-)

 — I.S.M.E.T.A.19:45, 3 March 2015

(Re-)implementing f1tr=, etc. for {{temp|head}}?

How hard would it be to do this? It seems it should be possible since underlyingly it's supported in the module code. I ask because things like {{arz-verb}} and {{arz-noun}} are written to use f1tr=.

Benwing (talk)05:41, 2 March 2015

I thought I did that already?

CodeCat12:26, 2 March 2015

Well, something doesn't work. Take a look at حفظ under Egyptian Arabic. The imperfect should have a translit by it. It uses {{arz-verb}} which does fill in a translit using impftr=, and this is mapped to f1tr= by {{arz-verb}}, but nothing is displayed. Maybe you have a hack somewhere to only display translits for certain languages? If so, can this hack be extended to include Egyptian Arabic (and probably various other Arabic dialects, at least Moroccan Arabic, North Levantine Arabic, South Levantine Arabic, and Libyan Arabic)? Thanks.

Benwing (talk)13:42, 2 March 2015

I had a look, and you used the wrong number. "Perfect" was already form 1, so the next one after that is form 2.

CodeCat13:45, 2 March 2015

Could you check this over

Could you look over the entry I made at *stéh₂mn̥ and tell me whether it looks correct and whether some entries should be moved to a *stéh₂mōn entry? Thanks for the help!

JohnC511:31, 18 February 2015

It looks ok. Neuters often don't have plurals, instead they have collective nouns which inflect like singulars. *stéh₂mōn is really just the plural, although it's actually *stéh₂mō (-n is lost after ō via w:Szemerényi's law).

CodeCat13:58, 18 February 2015

Drat, I totally knew that! Also, for the *-mn̥ entry. It seems to me that *-h₂ with and abstract t-stem may also form the collective noun as in -mentum and -μᾰ (-ma). Am I way off base on this one?

JohnC520:54, 18 February 2015

I don't actually know, but it does seem at least somewhat plausible that those two suffixes are related. Of course there's still the question of why the nominative has -ma and not -maton, and why the Latin suffix has a thematic stem while the Greek suffix is athematic (the Greek presumably reflects earlier -mn̥t-, the Latin reflects -mn̥to-m).

CodeCat21:12, 18 February 2015

In both cases I believe it was reanalysis.

  • For -mentum, there are examples like armentum, whose earlier form (armenta) is 1st declension. This would then have been reanalyzed as the neuter plural.
  • Similarly, I suspect the that -μᾰ was suppletive (*-mn̥, *-mn̥th₂) and the t-stem crept back into all the singular forms except the nominative singular.

This may just be idle rambling from having looked at these too long, but it seems plausible to me.

JohnC521:54, 18 February 2015

For me, the simplest explanation for the Greek form is just as an athematic -mn̥t-. Greek regularly loses final -t, so in the nominative the result would be -mn̥t > -mat > -ma or -mn̥t > -mn̥ > -ma (both orders are possible and give the same result). In the other forms, the -t- was not final, so it was retained. I see no reason to involve suppletion, unless I am missing something.

CodeCat22:01, 18 February 2015

I know I just asked you to check out something, but I was working on *wéytis, and there seems to be a great disagreement about whether the underlying root should be *wey-, *weh₁i-, or *weyh₁-. I was wondering whether you could shed any light on this? It appears to be a very productive root, and so I find it hard to believe there isn't a consensus on this.

JohnC512:05, 25 February 2015

I suspect that Old Irish féith must reflect Proto-Celtic *wēitis, as a short -ei- would be reflected as é, later ía in Old Irish. So this would then have to come from *weh₁i-. On the other hand, the -th- is palatalised, which is indicated by the preceding -i- in the spelling, and it's possible that palatalisation inhibits the é > ía change. You would have to ask someone more knowledgeable like User:Angr about it.

Germanic *wiþiz can't reflect *weyh₁-, as this can't result in a short -i- in zero grade: *wih₁- would give a long ī. I'm less certain about the outcome of a zero-grade *wh₁i-, as presumably this would turn the preceding semivowel into a full vowel: *wh₁i- > *uh₁i- > *ūi-. On the other hand, it's also possible that it remained as a semivowel, in which case the expected result would be *wh₁i- > *wi-, with the laryngeal simply lost.

Lithuanian výtis has an acute accent, which must reflect either a former laryngeal or the "new long grade" of Balto-Slavic. It can't reflect *wey-, as a Lithuanian y always reflects an "old" long vowel, generally from a laryngeal. A full grade -ey- gives -ei- or -ie- in Lithuanian. This also means that it probably can't reflect *weh₁i-, which would not account for the length, although I have no idea what -eh₁i- gives in Lithuanian. Balto-Slavic developed a new type of long grade ablaut though, which could have been introduced in a zero grade form: *wh₁i- > *wi- > *wī-.

Latin ī must reflect -eyh₁-, -ih₁- or -ey-, so that rules out *weh₁i- and its zero grade *wh₁i-. The former would give *vē- if I'm not mistaken.

So while some possibilities can be ruled out, I can't say anything conclusive. It would be a good idea to take this to the ES.

CodeCat15:22, 25 February 2015

Very well. May I quote you when I make the post (as I have no idea how to link here)? Also, with this information and given that De Vaan (for some strange reason) has *wh₁itis, could we maybe maybe posit *wéh₁ytis and propose that some of the forms came from the oblique form? This would give:

  • *wéh₁ytis:
    féith (*wēitis)
  • *wh₁itéy-:

I'd also like to add the wrinkle that, if we assume that वेमन् (veman, loom, slay) and vīmen stem from the same form, this points towards *wéymn̥.
PS: Is there a particular Vedic dictionary that gives word accentuation or can you construct it from rules in Panini?

JohnC521:37, 25 February 2015

I don't know much about Sanskrit so I can't help you there.

I don't find *wh₁itéy- very convincing as the origin of the Balto-Slavic forms, personally. The long vowel can be explained, in general, as either from a following laryngeal or from the new length ablaut. However, such new long vowels were always used in specific derivational processes that were innovated within Balto-Slavic, and I find it very unlikely that an old formation like a ti-stem would have such a long vowel. What also needs to be considered is that ti-stems became productive as infinitives in Balto-Slavic, so if one of them happened to survive as a noun, it must be an archaism and thus can't be an innovated derivation at the same time.

CodeCat23:39, 25 February 2015

Hi. I'm pretty sure that *weh₁i- would become *wei- in Celtic, not #wēi-. Beekes makes the exact same point about the sequence *-eh₂i- turning (generally) into *-ai- not #-āi-; *-āi- must reflect *-eh₂ei- or similar.

Benwing (talk)05:48, 2 March 2015

Ok, but ei generally becomes ē in Celtic, so does a former eh₁i also become ē or does it remain separate?

Also, the shortening of long diphthongs is because of w:Osthoff's law.

CodeCat12:28, 2 March 2015

Presumably eh₁i becomes ē just like ei. Loss of laryngeals between vowels occurred early in most (all?) daughters, followed (usually) by early vowel contraction.

Benwing (talk)13:36, 2 March 2015

Grease pit idea

Hey, I know you're really busy, but could you look at my Chinese classifier template idea when you have time here? Thanks.

WikiWinters (talk)20:06, 18 February 2015

I don't know much about the specifics of Chinese, so I can't tell without some more information. Most important is how a native speaker would determine what classifier to use. If a human can't reliably predict it based on the word's shape, neither can a computer.

CodeCat20:09, 18 February 2015

How much did I break Module:en-headword with my most recent edit? I hope not too much

Type56op9 (talk)16:57, 16 February 2015

ABC header for Norwegian

Can you remember how I set up a template for this (sometime last year I think), adapting it from Danish? I now have Teodor605 asking me how to do it, as I mentioned the lack of one in Norsk Wiktionary. I can't find the discussion we had, in the Grease Pit I think.

Donnanz (talk)14:00, 15 February 2015

What's an ABC header?

CodeCat14:32, 15 February 2015

Like here (an index I suppose) - Aa, Bb, Cc etc. I can't find the template.

Donnanz (talk)15:43, 15 February 2015

It's at Template:nb-categoryTOC.

CodeCat15:48, 15 February 2015

Ah, thanks for finding it. I was looking under index templates. I will send it to Teodor.

Donnanz (talk)15:56, 15 February 2015

Alternative form of

You have made some changes to Template:alternative_form_of which at least I do not find positive:

  1. Unlike other similar templates (e.g. alternative spelling of, alternative term for) it returns a lower case text: alternative form of... I think it should return capital initial letter as default: Alternative form of….
  2. The documentation on the template page is no more valid. As only you know how the template currently works you should either update the documentation or change whatever modules it takes to change to make the functioning of the template to match the documentation.
Hekaheka (talk)07:11, 14 February 2015

Also, while it's on my mind, could you fully WT:ACCELerate Template:es-noun for entries like oceanógrafo, so the feminine form of the nouns can be ACCELeratedly added? It works in Portuguese, but not in Spanish, sadly.

Type56op9 (talk)15:50, 8 February 2015

Also, while it's on my mind, could you fully WT:ACCELerate Template:es-noun for entries like oceanógrafo, so the feminine form of the nouns can be ACCELeratedly added? It works in Portuguese, but not in Spanish, sadly.

Type56op9 (talk)15:50, 8 February 2015

Hi again CodeCat. I've been trying to fiddle with the templates Template:ast-adj-mf and Template:ast-adj to make them track down green links, but am failing epically at doing it. For example, I would like the template to be able to find missing adjective forms for words like xenital and oncenu and categorise them in Category:Missing Asturian adjective forms‎. Can you do it for me?

Type56op9 (talk)15:47, 8 February 2015
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