User talk:Kutchkutch

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Marathi[edit]

Marathi does not use the Latin script. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Where possible, foreign entries should have an English translation (e.g. bhaji) rather than a definition. SemperBlotto 22:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Hindi words[edit]

None of your recent entries have ==language== sections. They may get deleted. SemperBlotto 08:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

माकड (mākaḍ)[edit]

Thanks for all the changes! —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 10:29, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing! I was curious how you were able to obtain the Maharashtri Prakrit word when you first made this page and Prakrit words on other pages such as those in this category [1] and especially in the Brahmi script. Did you find them in old Prakrit books on archive.org or Google Books such as [2] [3] and transliterate them into Brahmi from Latin script? Doing so appears to be hard since the books are so old and sometimes hard to understand. It is much easier to use digitised and searchable dictionaries from [4] but it does not seem to have any Prakrit resources. It does have an Old Marathi dictionary though. Kutchkutch (talk) 19:14, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
That website does have Prakrit in Turner's dictionary: [5]. It says:
Pk. makkaḍa -- m., °ḍī f., maṁkaḍa -- , °kaṇa -- m.
I think Turner only gives Maharashtri Prakrit. Some other sources: [6], [7] which give other Prakrit lects. For typing in Prakrit I use Module:typing-aids, so {{subst:chars|m|psu|makkaDa}} gives 𑀫𑀓𑁆𑀓𑀟 (makkaḍa). [8], [9] have some pre-transliterated Prakrit texts too. Great to have another Indian-language editor! User:माधवपंडित is another one, he speaks Konkani, Kannada, and Hindi (and apparently some Marathi). —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 19:33, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for discussing this! It seems that ‘Prakrit’ on its own is not a single language, and the word ‘Prakrit’ collectively refers to Middle Indic languages. If a source (Turner in this case) mentions a word in Prakrit without specifying the lect (Ardhamāgadhī, Mahārāṣṭrī, Śaurasenī, etc), would it be fair to say that the word exists in all lects with identical forms each worthy of its own Wiktionary entry? Or would more research or judgement be necessary to say which lects have the word and in what form as you did when you said ‘I think Turner only gives Maharashtri Prakrit [in this case]’? And in this case it appears Turner gives a feminine version of the first word with the ending °ḍī f. and two additional masculine words maṁkaḍa -- , °kaṇa -- m. Would all of these words be worthy of their own Wiktionary entries?
With regard to script, there appears to be a convention for which script to be used for each language on Wiktionary. For example, the consensus in a section on your talk page [10] is that Prakrit lects should be in the Brahmi script and Pali should be in the Latin script with the Template:pi-alt being a nice way to show the alternate scripts. According to Wikipedia, Konkani can be written in various scripts and it appears all Konkani lemmas on Wiktionary are in the Devanagari script. Marathi used to be written in the Mōḍī script and Mōḍī script is now in Unicode so should Old Marathi lemmas on Wiktionary be in the Modi script? Or not since there are few Modi Unicode fonts?
Is there no such thing as a Mahārāṣṭrī Apabhraṃśa (or Ardhamāgadhī Apabhraṃśa) just like Gurjar Apabhramsa (Category:Gurjar_Apabhramsa_language) and Sauraseni Apabhramsa (Category:Sauraseni_Apabhramsa_language)? Kutchkutch (talk) 00:05, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
@Kutchkutch: The consensus here is to treat Prakrit as a class of middle Middle-Indo-Aryan languages (the old MIA languages are Pali, the younger MIA languages are Apabhramsas). So there is a CAT:Sauraseni Prakrit language, CAT:Ardhamagadhi Prakrit language, etc. I have suggested merging them because of how regular they are in spelling differences, and the fact that they were pretty much mutually intelligible (many medieval Indian plays used different Prakrit lects for different characters), but User:DerekWinters disagreed (he too knows quite a bit about Prakrit).
By Turner using Maharashtri Prakrit, I mean he usually gives the standard Maharashtri Prakrit spelling, e.g. I've noticed for verbs he always drops consonants in the ending, e.g for भवति "to become" he gives Prakrit bhavaï, where the spelling for Sauraseni is bhodi.
All those words do merit an entry as alternative spellings if they pass WT:CFI, basically there should be at least 3 durable citations (if it's obvious that a word is citable, you don't actually need to provide the citations).
Old Marathi could be given in the Modi script, but since there is such patchy Unicode support idk if that would be a good idea. Same for Prakrit, I'd rather have it use the Latin script (like Pali) or Devanagari so people can actually search for the entries. But, our support for Prakrit in etymologies is already pretty good with Brahmi. Finally, I'm not sure about Apabhramsa for Marathi, but since Old Marathi is like early 1000's to 1400ish, and Prakrit is like 100 BC to 500 CE, perhaps there is a Marathi Apabhramsa. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 00:40, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

कसे आहात? इकडे मराठी बोलणारांची उणीव आहे। भेटून आनंद झाला। -- mādhavpaṇḍit (talk) 07:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

धन्यवाद! उणीव खरंच आहे। मला पण भेटून आनंद झाला। Kutchkutch (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

^मैं यह बिल्कुल नहीं समझा... मैंने एक मराठी शब्दावली ढूंढ डाली है, [11], क्या आप इन मूलभूत शब्द को add कर सकते हैं? धन्यबाद —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 01:00, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

इस निवेदन के लिए बहुत धन्यवाद! अब तक मैंने इतना बड़ा काम नहीं किया और थोड़ा समय लगेगा लेकिन कोशिश तो ज़रूर करूंगा!
Even though I’ve been learning Hindi for many many years and perfectly understood what you’ve written, I don’t consider myself completely fluent in it yet but it’s probably good enough for English Wiktionary but maybe not for Hindi Wikipedia [12] :-)
I’ve noticed (as you must have too) that some of the words on that list are English words transliterated/borrowed into Devanagari/Marathi. Furthermore, some of those words must already have entries as Hindi and other languages even if the Marathi entry may not exist yet. Kutchkutch (talk) 08:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
हिंदी विकिपीडिया पर सिर्फ़ शुद्ध हिंदी का इस्तेमाल करते हैं, जो वैसे बहुत कम सुनी जाती है। मैं भी वहां उतना edit नहीं करता… मुझे हिंदी आती है, संस्कृत नहीं! English borrowings are fair game still, see CAT:Hindi terms borrowed from English (but they can wait for now, since they're very simple to translate). We're in serious need of Marathi lemmas, thank you so much for your contributions! —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 10:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


Babel[edit]

You should add {{Babel}} to your userpage btw, maybe {{Babel|mr|en-4|hi-4}}? It'll look like this:

Wiktionary:Babel
mr या व्यक्तीची मातृभाषा मराठी आहे.
en-4 This user speaks English at a near-native level.
Search user languages or scripts

Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 01:07, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Also, I found another great resource : [13], It has 27,000 Marathi example sentences! —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 01:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion and the link! Kutchkutch (talk) 01:23, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
@AryamanA Do you know if the example sentences at [14] and Tatoeba can be used in their entirety or in a modified way without mentioning the source? Some example sentences have audio files and the author for the Marathi audio files has stated that Tatoeba needs to be attributed if the audio files are used, but there is perhaps no need to mention the source if only the text is used with some possible modifications. Kutchkutch (talk) 03:21, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Their licence requires attribution to be provided. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 11:40, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Ok thanks for answering! I was just looking for a place to look for inspiration, if it's too complicated to properly attribute Tatoeba perhaps it shouldn't be used yet. Creativity is not as easy as I thought. Sometimes I write a usage example and then think it's not very effective in showing the word's meaning.
Also, when should {{uxi}} be used instead of {{ux}}? Should it be used when a usage example is too short to occupy several lines? I was also wondering why {{hi-usex}} is is used for Hindi instead of the default {{ux}} or {{uxi}}. Is {{hi-usex}} customised in some way or is it simply a shortcut for {{ux|hi|यह एक उदाहरण है।}}? Kutchkutch (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
@Kutchkutch: Right now, it automatically makes it inline ({{uxi}}) for short examples, and it highlights the word to make it more visible. Otherwise, it is pretty much the same as {{ux}}/{{uxi}}. And yes, {{uxi}} is for short phrases or sentences usually, but I've noticed some languages like Greek only use {{uxi}}, for stylistic reasons. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 22:49, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello..[edit]

Hello.. Happy to see fellow Indian on Wiktionay. Just curiously land here knowing that Kutch is a region in Gujarat state of India. So I found your name interesting. Regards,--Nizil Shah (talk) 06:54, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

@Nizil Shah Thanks for saying hello and it's nice to meet you! You are correct about my username; it does refer to the Kutch region of Gujarat. Using this region for my username was a random choice. Unfortunately, I do not know much about Kutch or its language other than what can be found at Wikipedia. I see on your talk page that you have posted some links about the Kutchi language in a discussion with User:DerekWinters.
I can see that User:DerekWinters and you are both Gujarati-language editors. I have not had the chance to interact with User:DerekWinters yet.
I have a Gujarati-related question that I wanted to ask you (or User:DerekWinters if I ever get the chance to interact with him). I wanted to add 'અમદાવાદ, વડોદરા, સુરત, રાજકોટ અને મુંબઈથી પ્રગટ થતું દૈનિક.' as a usage example for the entry અને. I was unsure what the words 'પ્રગટ' and 'થતું' mean so I decided to remove the usage example. Is the correct translation of that Gujarati phrase 'Presented daily from Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Surat, Rajkot and Mumbai'? If you can confirm this translation I might consider re-adding this usage example to the the entry અને. Kutchkutch (talk) 01:25, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
'પ્રગટ થતું' mean 'published' here. That translation was incorrect. The correct translation: 'A daily published from Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Surat, Rajkot and Mumbai'. Such tag is used on the top of newspapers/dailies. Feel free to ask whenever you have any question regarding Gujarati. I am native Gujarati speaker.
Kutch is a wonderful place to live or visit, I can say. I can understand Kutchi partially but could not read it if written in Sindhi script. Regards,--Nizil Shah (talk) 11:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
@Nizil Shah:Thanks! As you pointed out, I saw that phrase on the top of the front pages of Gujarati newspapers.
All the Kutchi words in Category:Kachchi lemmas appear to be in the Gujarati script so far. Although the Sindhi Perso-Arabic script has similarities with the Urdu script, it appears to have a letter corresponding to almost every Devanagari letter, which Urdu does not have. Wikipedia's language family tree suggests that Kutchi is closer to Sindhi than Gujarati, but below it says 'Kutchi is often thought to be a mixture of Sindhi, Gujarati, and Rajasthani'. Kutchkutch (talk) 05:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
@Kutchkutch:, Kutch has been part of Gujarat since its foundation in 1960. Gujarati is a primary language taught across all schools in Gujarat (except large number of English Medium schools where it is taught as a secondary language). As far as I know, no school in Kutch teach Kutchi language. Kutchi is written in Sindhi and Gujarati scripts as it has not single standard Kutchi script. As there is not much support for Sindhi script, most writers prefers Gujarati script. You are right that Sindhi script has corresponding letter for Devnagari script. It is somewhat similar to the case of Western and Eastern Punjabi: similar language but different scripts due to international borders. Kutchi origin people living is Pakistan uses Sindhi script while living Kutchi people in Kutch, Gujarat, India uses Gujarati script. Same applies to Sindhi language too: Sindhi living in India uses Devnagari/Gujarati script while Sindhis living in Pakistan uses Sindhi script. Sorry for very late reply. I had missed this conversation. @DerekWinters, pinging you for inputs on "technical" linguistic knowledge which I have none.--Nizil Shah (talk) 06:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

love button[edit]

Hello. I'm amazed that there are so many words for "clitoris" in Marathi (see the translation table there). Do you vouch for all of them? And would you mind creating the most common? Thank you! --Barytonesis (talk) 20:25, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

@Barytonesis: Yes, it is a bit unusual that there's so many words listed there! I think what happened was there was a user on Marathi Wikipedia that made a glossary of English to Marathi terms related to female anatomy [15] and transferred those translations to Wiktionary. The reason for making such a list might be because since it's a taboo topic many resources such as dictionaries don't even mention them. (In that discussion, one user even suggested it's not suitable to include such topics on Marathi Wikipedia). Those words look like real words. Most of those words could be Sanskrit borrowings and compounds, and since they're not in dictionaries it could be hard to find information about them. Kutchkutch (talk) 22:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Dardic[edit]

Hey Kutchkutch, I just wanted to mention that Dardic is a descendant of Proto-Indo-Aryan, not Sanskrit. Also, when you add {{desc|inc-dar-pro}}, please don't null it out with |2=-, so we can see which entries need reconstructions. Thank and keep up the good work! --Victar (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: I remember reading in some paper that scholars do not consider that all "Dardic" languages to have descended from a single, "Proto-Dardic" language. This is why in spite of so many scholarly articles on Dardic languages, a Proto-Dardic language has not been reconstructed. These "Dardic" languages are instead clusters of groups of languages with similarities existing within the groups and not Dardic as a whole. So Kalasha and Khowar are from one group whereas Torwali and Shina are from the other. This is why I used to earlier null out the Proto Dardic level while listing the descendants and now I don't list it at all. In Kalasha there are some words that originate from Classical Sanskrit times. And nowhere in Kalasha has a linguistic feature been found which was lost in Sanskrit and is reminiscent of Proto-Indo-Aryan. Lastly, I have not seen Kutchkutch dabble in Dardic -- what's this about? -- माधवपंडित (talk) 08:35, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
@माधवपंडित: This probably isn't the right place for a whole conversation on the legitimacy of Proto-Dardic, but regardless of whether some entries are borrowed, influenced by, or straight-out descended from Sanskrit, I think we can both agree (along with publications on the subject) that Proto-Dardic does not belong below Sanskrit. I brought this up with Kutchkutch because he was adding {{desc|inc-dar-pro}} below {{desc|sa}} in trees. --Victar (talk) 14:47, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
@Victar: I though Proto-Dardic was a descendant of Vedic Sanskrit... —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 16:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Nope. Some even think it might have been more closely related to Nuristani, but that's probably just due to areal influence. See {{R:iir-nur:Blažek:2010}}. --Victar (talk) 16:52, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
@Victar: There is something seriously wrong with their divergence dates within Indo-Aryan. They claim Hindi and Punjabi diverged in 1650 CE, but Old Punjabi and Old Hindi had distinct literary traditions by 1300 CE. Their divergence date for Sinhala is 650 BCE (!!) is even before the existence of Pali and the dramatic Prakrits, obviously incorrect; Old Sinhala began in 200 CE. They classify Nepali, Marathi, Gujarati, and Sindhi in a single subfamily ("Northwest Indo-Aryan")... that's so clearly wrong. I'll read the rest, but I have serious doubts about the paper. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 02:36, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: I don't want to get into a whole discussion on this user talk page, but the paper gives the placement of Dardic is other publications as well (which I why I referenced it specifically), all not below Sanskrit. Here is a chart from Encyclopædia Iranica, so it's a pretty mainstream opinion. --Victar (talk) 02:46, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: As @माधवपंडित: mentioned, I don't recall any recent dabbling in Dardic (maybe it was a while ago?), but thanks for all the suggestions and the information. I'll keep it in mind if I dabble in Dardic. Kutchkutch (talk) 05:32, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

म्हणणे (mhaṇṇe)[edit]

Are म्हणून (mhaṇūn) and म्हणजे (mhaṇje) the same? —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 22:15, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: They could be similar in certain cases since they're both derived from the same verb, but they are not the same. म्हणून (mhaṇūn) can be synchronically analysed as म्हणणे (mhaṇṇe) + the completive aspect ऊन (compare conjunctive Hindi कहकर/कहके (kahkar/kahke)). म्हणजे (mhaṇje) is an archaic passive inflection (Old Marathi म्हणिजे (mhaṇije)). From those literal meanings they acquired figurative meanings such as:
Causal म्हणून: [clause X] म्हणून [clause Y]
[clause X] → [clause Y]
Dhongde & Wali conjunction example:
[माझ्याकडे पैसे नव्हते] म्हणून [मी चालत आलो].
[mājhyākḍe paise navhate] mhaṇūn [mī cālat ālo].
[I had no money] so [I came walking].
Emphatic negation म्हणून: "Preceded by an interrogative pronoun it expresses a strong negation"
Dhongde & Wali example:
मी काय म्हणून जाईनkāy mhaṇūn j̈āīnI am not going to go at all. (literally, “Why should I go?”)
Named/Called म्हणून: Preceded by a noun
इसाक म्हणून आब्राहमाचा पुत्र होता.
isāk mhaṇūn ābrāhmāċā putra hotā.
There was a son of Abraham named/called Isaac.
Equality म्हणजे: X म्हणजे Y
X = Y
[जल] म्हणजे [पाणी].[jal] mhaṇje [pāṇī].[जल] means [पाणी].
Conditional म्हणजे: [clause X] म्हणजे [clause Y]
[clause X] → [clause Y]
[तुम्ही बोलला] म्हणजे [माझं कार्य होईल].
[tumhī bollā] mhaṇje [mājha kārya hoīl].
[Should you speak], then indeed [my work will be done].
Causal म्हणून and Conditional म्हणजे appear to be similar. However, [clause X] in Conditional म्हणजे assumes a fact whereas [clause X] in Causal म्हणून states a fact. Kutchkutch (talk) 05:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
@Kutchkutch: Thank you so much! I've started using this Hindi-Marathi textbook to learn a bit more now. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 15:04, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Ideally this information would be in the entries in the usual entry layout and with any Dhongde & Wali "copyrighted" material rewritten.
I've already discovered [16], and it's been useful. Perhaps [17] is comparable to this list. Since there's so few Oriya lemmas perhaps [18] could be useful for creating a few. Kutchkutch (talk) 08:13, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

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