User talk:LlywelynII

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Archived talk page[edit]

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Assuming you aren't just sockpuppets[edit]

A concerted campaign of harrassment and vandalism of an editor's talk page by numerous editors is far more off-putting than a single unpleasant one. I'll probably stay just because I care about the project, but you're going to drive off other new editors acting like this and you should be ashamed of yourselves. — LlywelynII 23:19, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

As usual, you're way off. What you call vandalism may or may not be justified, but it's not vandalism. There's no evidence whatsoever of sockpuppetry, and the only coordination I see in this exchange is some people people giving their opinions, when asked, and others sticking up for fellow editors- nothing concerted about it. For my part, I had to respond to the nastiness and unfairness of your edit comments, which were directed at editors who regularly contribute far more to our Chinese and Japanese coverage- and to the encouragement of other editors- than anything you could ever do.
As for "harassment", It started as a simple request for you change your editing practices, which you responded to with criticism on a marginally-related topic. Not long after that, you responded to an argument made by way of a straightforward statement of opinion with a bunch of loaded words directed toward belittling the person who made the argument and pretty much the whole Chinese Wiktionary community. Suzukaze-c reacted to that provocation with a post that may have been rude and confrontational, but understandable given the tone of your previous comment.
Your response, though, was worse, and quite typical: you love to criticize others, but you simply can't handle criticism directed at you. If anything, your response has only served to show that the post had a legitimate point- that you have no respect for anyone else, nor for their contributions. You may go along for a while and play nice, but at the slightest provocation- imagined or otherwise- you're back to savaging anyone or anything you disagree with.
I'm less worried about people being intimidated by the actions taken here, then about letting your nastiness and wild accusations directed at other contributors go unanswered. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:56, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Obviously, or you wouldn't have "stuck up" for your fellow editor by repeatedly vandalizing my talk page in the first place. (No, it wasn't vandalism or harrassment—however unpleasant and off-topic—until it was restoring content removed by a talk page's own user. That was, however, precisely what you three did and, yes, it's indefensible and you shouldn't to it to other users, however much you currently happen to like Suze more than me.)
You're welcome to vent your displeasure elsewhere and that's fine; you're welcome to post helpful and substantive suggestions about the project here; but yes I'll remove further drama from my own talk page and you three should learn to respect that even from editors you happen to dislike. — LlywelynII 02:48, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Formatting of glosses in zh-forms[edit]

Is there any particular reason why you insist on using links, line breaks and {{nowrap}} for the glosses in {{zh-forms}}? The formatting looks very cluttered and not that much different from the automatic glosses. If you find it is absolutely necessary for the glosses to be in that format, it could be automated if we change the data modules for single character glosses, which currently do not have links and use semicolons instead of line breaks. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

It's much clearer and less cluttered in display. It's a hypertext dictionary and of course you should include links. What it looks like in code is completely irrelevant. It'd be great if you could automate better formatting than what you're using now, although it sounds like you disagree anyway. In any case, I only override the glosses when they're wrong or throwing in irrelevant senses, so improved automated forms are a separate issue. — LlywelynII 00:56, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm fine with the links, but I'm not sure if we need to use line breaks and {{nowrap}} when semicolons should suffice. I'm thinking of trying to improve the automatic glosses by adding the feature of choosing which glosses to display. Take 丁亥, which has these automatic glosses for the individual characters:
  • 丁: “4th heavenly stem; man; people; little cube; a Chinese surname”
  • 亥: “12th earthly branch; 9-11 p.m.”
I think we should having something like {{zh-forms|1|1}} to capture the first gloss for each character. @Wyang, what do you think? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 21:27, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
I think it is a good suggestion. If we do this, a small link in the top right to the gloss data page would be handy. Something similar could be done for multisyllabic words too. Wyang (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
(One possible problem is that the data may be edited and "2" may refer to something different in the future though... —suzukaze (tc) 23:33, 4 January 2017 (UTC))
Line breaks are much clearer to the actual reader. A mess of semicolon text is much less helpful and there's no reason to leave it at that. — LlywelynII 13:23, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Hebrew units of measure[edit]

Where are you getting these values for Hebrew units of measure? I'm not sure they were even accurate enough for it to be worth giving any kind of conversion to modern units. --WikiTiki89 16:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: Isn't the reference already in the entry, like at lethek? Also, many modern English Bibles have units of measure conversion tables. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 16:40, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Oh right. But still, I don't know how historically accurate they are, or how accurately they even ever were used in practice. I think the amounts aren't lexically significant anyway. We should probably give the physical reference to the size, like "length of a forearm" or "size of a large basket", but there is no need for overprecision. Also, I'm mainly concerned with the Hebrew entries, not the English entries. --WikiTiki89 18:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
It's Oxford and of course they're lexically significant. It's lexically meaningless to give "ancient measure" with no modern value where it's known which is why I included an authoritative up-to-date source. These were not just "forearms" or "pots": they were in fact standardized units within a certain degree of precision (hence "about").
If you have other and up-to-date and authoritative sources to the contrary, we can talk about adding a range of values, but don't remove well-sourced and pertinent information where other people have gone to the trouble to find it for our readers. — LlywelynII 03:06, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
That said, thanks for making me look at this again. In English sources, omer and homer are all mixed up but I just found the right original form of "homer" at Strong's so I'll fix that at the Hebrew entry. — LlywelynII 03:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Hebrew Ayin ע and the use of ʿ[edit]

As you are the original and primary contributor for the Baʿal page, I thought it would be appropriate and respectful to message you rather than make autonomous corrections to your work without first checking to see if there was an underlying reasoning to what you wrote. I am referring specifically to your assertion that Baʿal is an "alternative spelling of Baal, preserving its glottal stop." I am not a native Hebrew speaker, but I would contest that the use of ʿ in Baʿal is in fact an attempt to preserve pharyngealisation rather than a glottal stop.

While it is true that some dialects of Modern Hebrew pronounce the letter ע‎ as a glottal stop [ʔ], it was historically pronounced as either a voiced pharyngeal fricative [ʕ] (like Arabic ʿayin) or something close to it. In Arabic transcriptions, ʿ is used to denote the pharyngealisation caused by ʿayin, while a simple ' is used for a glottal stop, and in my experience this is also the practise with Hebrew notations that employ both marks. Thus, for dialects that would pronounce ע as a glottal stop, or even the many in which the ע is now silent, it would be accurate to transcribe it as Ba'al. Whereas if one were to make the specific distinction of transcribing the Hebrew as Baʿal, this should be taken as a preservation of the pharyngealisation that is present in the historical pronunciation of ע and which typifies Mizrahi dialects of Modern Hebrew.

I would thus suggest that an appropriate correction be made at your convenience, in the interest of accuracy, or I could do it myself at some future date if you are unable. Of course, if you had some prevailing rationale for according the ʿ to a glottal stop, then by all means leave the page should be left as it is.

Thank you for your kind message. Do remember to sign your posts, though. — LlywelynII 17:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Old English non-lemma forms[edit]

I've corrected a bunch of entries you created. They did not follow the principle that non-lemma forms should not duplicate information that is given on the lemma. This includes definitions and genders. —CodeCat 22:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)


Hi. I've reverted your removal of the 'you' definition on cha. Wiktionary policy is that "a term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means", and "cha" meets this. If you disagree, please start a discussion at Requests for Deletion. Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:04, 7 June 2017 (UTC)


Hello. Could I ask you to stop using {{etyl}}, which has been deprecated in favour of {{der}}? Also, please put {{attention}} on your Ancient Greek entries, because you're leaving rather many errors. Thank you.--Barytonesis (talk) 07:28, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

You can, but the page for {{der}} looks like a mess and I don't see any obvious improvements. Is there some actual effect it has that makes it an improvement? E.g., directly borrowed terms, I suppose I really should be using {{bor}} because it shunts things into a different category automatically and we'd obviously like to keep that consistent across entries. If {{der}} is simply someone's recoding of {{etyl}}, there's no real point.
As for the formatting, I was following that used by other sites or the links here but I'll certainly defer to you. If {{attention}} makes it easier for you to help give everything a second look, I'll certainly do what I can. Thanks for your time and improvements. =) — LlywelynII 07:38, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I think {{etyl}} is now only used as a backend to the other etymology templates. Also, the idea is to have the same condensed markup for all etymology templates, i.e. {{name of the template|target language code|source language code|term}} for consistency; as you can see, that's not how {{etyl}} behaves. But if you want more details you'll be better off asking someone like User:Rua. Anyhow, virtually everyone is moving towards {{der}} now, so keeping using {{etyl}} will just needlessly confuse things and lengthen the process. And yes, it would be better to use {{bor}} or {{inh}} when appropriate.
Also, for the header "Further reading", please see this vote. As a matter of fact, I preferred the header "References", but the idea is to use it only for footnotes. See νᾶνος (nânos). --Barytonesis (talk) 08:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your time writing, but you seem to have misunderstood what was going on.
The lead section to that vote explicitly describes that References continue to exist and should be used for information that supports the entry. The further reading section is for things in addition to that. Which, yknow, is what those section names obviously mean, regardless of four-person (and therefore rather unbinding) process votes. — LlywelynII 02:50, 17 October 2017 (UTC)