User talk:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/Archive2

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Taxonomic names[edit]

I am trying to straighten out taxonomic names. It is not something that I can specify in advance, in the abstract. Those folks who have more subject area knowledge and might be able to specify everything in advance decline to get involved.

First I am trying to have a basic standard layout. I only have a few of the easier elements laid out. I view the effort as at a stage of trying to facilitate the accumulation of information from other wikis. I would like to keep it easy to take advantage of wikipedia's and wikispecies information on vernacular names. They both have vernacular names for multiple languages at entries that tend to be at taxonomic names. A list of English synonyms is common at WP. For now, I intend to use translation tables to accumulate vernacular names which are not, strictly speaking synonyms, not really being appropriate for the same context and the synonyms headers for both taxonomic synonyms and English vernacular names.

For some entries where there is information at WP on the geographic spread of the species or genus I have experimented with translation requests. That is what happened on that table you removed. If you would like to participate in this, I am trying to start a discussion at Wiktionary Talk:About Translingual#Translation of Translingual words. DCDuring TALK 02:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I didn’t know about that discussion. Sorry. I’m afraid I only have school-level knowledge of taxonomy, so I won’t be able to help. — Ungoliant (Falai) 02:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


Please see Talk:Srebrenica. -- 12:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I apologize: you did not remove the Dutch translation in diff=18093638, OTOH I do think a mention of the massacre is needed. As far as I know, most uses of Srebrenica don't refer to the town, but to the massacre. -- 12:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Setting words[edit]

I added the first word at Wiktionary:Foreign Word of the Day/2012/September/18. Does it look right to you? I'm starting to think it would be good to have it say n. or neut. with a piped link to w:Grammatical gender, but I'm not sure if that's a feature worth building into {{FWOTD}}.
Secondly, please comment at Wiktionary talk:Foreign Word of the Day/Archive/2012/September.
Thirdly, I'd like to add in some topical terms for upcoming religious events. I think that we ought to do תשובה for Yom Kippur, Gift for Christmas, and umoja on Dec 26 for Kwanzaa. Does that sound good, or do you have better words for those? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks right. We could lump it together with the pos= parameter. Sounds good, especially because those words aren’t religious by themselves. — Ungoliant (Falai) 16:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
I added 5 more FWOTDs, all from major languages because I think it would be weird to start out with little-known languages. — Ungoliant (Falai) 18:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Could we do oud en nieuw for 31 December? :) —CodeCat 18:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Sure. Just nominate it and leave a note. BTW, is there an English word for that term? If not, New Year celebrations might be worth as a translation target, as Portuguese also has a word for this. — Ungoliant (Falai) 18:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Two things: I'll add the gender with appropriate 'pedia links, and I'll also wikify the definitions (I think we should wikify them like the defs themselves, as default). Also, Sche has set b'ak'tun for the end of the world in December, so I thought we might want to counter that with a real Classic Maya word on the same date :) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Nice! I hadn’t thought of that. What about kiim? And kuxa’an for December 22? I wonder how the hell are we going to cite these though. — Ungoliant (Falai) 19:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
If that doesn't work out, would ragnarǫk be an option? That may be easier to cite. —CodeCat 19:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
My usual source for durably archived Yucatec Maya is this dictionary by La Universidad de Quintana Roo, but their vocabulary is very limited. The closest I can find is aj kimen for cadáver, and tep’ kimen for mortaja (trying to convert the spellings to Wiktionary standard). I'd rather we use Maya, though, if only to promote interest in the indigenous languages of the Third World. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
If you/we can manage to find pik (which is supposedly the real word for b’ak’tun) attested somewhere, it'd be brilliant. - -sche (discuss) 21:27, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Morris Swadesh seems to list it as to break (transitive), according to FAMSI. U de QR has several words for quebrar, but none of them match. That more or less sums up places to look for Yucatan Maya citations. I have no idea how we could cite it or verify it. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:07, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea maybe to have a separate list of nominations that are intended for a specific time of year? It might make it easier to find them among the others that way. —CodeCat 19:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Good idea. Also, we should either remove the with/without audio distinction from the pre-2012 nominations or add that distinction to the 2012 nominations. I prefer the former. — Ungoliant (Falai) 19:52, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah. I agree that we ought to remove the audio distinction. By the way, I transformed umoja from a Tbot entry to a full entry ready for mainpageship, so I'm just going to place it on the right day, if you don't mind. I think that we should fill up what we can with all the good nominations we have, and take them off the nomination page (or move them to a strikeout section so that people don't try to re-add them). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I just realised that we have way too many nouns. The vast majority of our noms and set words are nouns. Now, nouns happen to be my favourite part of speech by far, but I still think we need to space it out (i.e., not have more than four or so nouns in a row, like we currently have set). So, just a thought. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I also noticed that when adding the FWOTDs, the problem is that most interesting terms tend to be nouns. To be honest it’s not something I’m worrying about very much. What we could do from now on is setting FWOTDs randomly (always within the next 30 days or so), thus leaving gaps for the other to fill up if he thinks there is too much repetition (of POS, language family, context, etc.). Worst comes to worst, we can always move a FWOTD to another day. — Ungoliant (Falai) 04:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
There are some more verb-centric languages (Korean, Navajo, Ojibwe, &c.) to pilfer from, and other parts of speech get a lot of attention now and then. Well, as long as we're aware of the issue, I suppose it's manageable. Maybe we need a non-noun "focus week" constantly running to encourage people to add other POSs (only, we would never run it as a week but instead space them out as needed, like a reservoir). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you mad at me?[edit]

I’m sorry that I accidentally lied. --Æ&Œ (talk) 23:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

No big deal. — Ungoliant (Falai) 23:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

{{FWOTD}} again[edit]

I just realized that this template doesn't support multiscriptal languages (think Serbo-Croatian). Check out what happens when I try to do it using the tr= parameter:

Wikinews commentary.svg
Foreign word of the day  in Serbo-Croatian
[[сјевер#Serbo-Croatian|sjever]] noun
  1. north
About Foreign Word of the DayArchiveNominate a wordLeave feedback

And even if that worked, it still wouldn't be a great solution, because other dialects use śever or even sever. This also arbitrarily decides that the Cyrillic comes first. I expect we'll get some hate mail just for featuring SC as a language in its own right on the main page anyway, but is there a way to make it work and be aesthetically pleasing? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:44, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Errr... that’s not the transliteration parameter! Transliteration is the fourth, like this:
We could also use do it like this:
Ungoliant (Falai) 01:54, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Wow, that was stupid of me. The latter option is pretty good. Do you think we should include all the dialectal forms? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Only the major ones, IMO. I wonder how English WOTD treats words with pondian differences. — Ungoliant (Falai) 02:00, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
AFAIK, English WOTD features only one spelling, and mention of alternative spellings is only found in the entry (which I think is fine); hence WOTD:cicatrise, WOTD:crystalize. But FWIW, I agree that Serbo-Croatian should list both Cyrillic and Latin spellings. - -sche (discuss) 02:50, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks -sche. — Ungoliant (Falai) 02:57, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
It's a bit different here, in that nobody considers 'American' a language, but many people do consider 'Montenegrin' to be one. All the same, that plan seems reasonable, so I'm fine with just standard Serbian spelling + standard Croatian spelling. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:22, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Would you mind setting some FWOTDs? We only have two days set, and I'm going to be extremely busy this week. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure. — Ungoliant (Falai) 01:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Audio files.[edit]

Boa! Realmente é capaz de demorar uns tempos. Talvez um robot tratasse disto num instante, como alguém no wikcionário francês quer fazer, mas eles têm que criar quase todos os artigos. Só um pormenor: Já que se edita, porque não acrescentar o IPA (ou AFI - Alfabeto fonético internacional como tem Lisboa? É copiar os símbolos dos artigos da Wikipedia inglesa e meter no "Template" "(Portugal) IPA(key): /liʒbuə/".

Vou pedir a um amigo meu para acrescentá-los numa versão do Anexo:Lista de concelhos por NUTS que está a fazer para a en-wikipedia, pois o "Template" IPA lá (Template:IPA-pt) dá para juntar o IPA/AFI e o som, como se pode ver comparando "São Paulo" na pt-wiki e na en-wiki. Assim é só ir buscar a informação à lista e não aos artigos!!!! Lembrei-me agora que talvez seja só uma questão de traduzir o Template inglês para português... Ou copiá-lo para aqui???

Talvez depois acrescente à informação dos ficheiros audio, quando os dividir alfabeticamente, É que na Categoria,, por exemplo em Águeda, como tem acento, não fica com os outros "A".

Grato, FilipeFalcão (talk) 08:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Afinal, o (Template:IPA-pt) também dá na pt-wiki. O meu amigo vai agora actualizar o anexo das NUTS.!!! FilipeFalcão (talk) 09:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Anexo:Lista de concelhos por NUTS actualizada. mas o "Template" do Wiktionary é bem melhor!!! FilipeFalcão (talk)
Perfeito. Nós já temos um template para áudio com IPA chamado {{audio-IPA}}. — Ungoliant (Falai) 12:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


I've added that word on the page for requested pt entries. (My reason for that is figuring out how to make a conjugation template for Volapük verbs.) Are you busy? If so, I'll be patient. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

That was quick. O.O Thanks, anyway. ^^ --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:43, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Next optional word to tackle: indefinido. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Any specific context? It has tons of meanings. — Ungoliant (Falai) 22:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Both adjective and noun in maybe the sense of grammar? One word having a lot of senses is unexpected to me. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:11, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
I just went ahead and created a full entry. Couldn’t hold myself :( — Ungoliant (Falai) 22:35, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
That's okay, I don't mind full entries. How about modo? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Done. — Ungoliant (Falai) 23:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Fixed the alphabetical order. Now, maybe to focus on how to make a template. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 23:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

We have tons of these[edit]

On WT:RFD#-crazed, you said "We have tons of these". Go ahead and nominate them. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I will whenever I find any. — Ungoliant (Falai) 18:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

FWOTD for 1 October[edit]

The image to the right is really tiny on my screen, I didn't even notice it was there at first. Maybe you should make it a bit bigger? —CodeCat 12:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneUngoliant (Falai) 13:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
BTW feel free to set any FWOTD if you want. — Ungoliant (Falai) 13:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Are you sure? I don't really know what kind of criteria you follow, I'd be afraid to favour my favourite languages too much. —CodeCat 13:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Just don’t repeat the same language too often (more twice a month). Future FWOTDs are always open to discussion and it’s possible to change them. — Ungoliant (Falai) 13:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Somewhat off-topic: Are we adding {{was fwotd}} before the word actually was FWOTD? This doesn't make much sense to me. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:01, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
English WOTD also does this. It doesn’t make sense but it’s much easier adding {{was fwotd}} en masse than doing it every day. — Ungoliant (Falai) 00:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
The template also doesn't display "was", so its appearance in entries could also be seen as an announcement for a word to be featured in the future. And it's easier to add it to the entries when FWOTD pages are created for them, than to have to remember to do it afterwards. —CodeCat 00:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)


It looks like a perfect translation. It should set other translators on the right course. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 23:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)


Coloquei algumas citações na página de citações desta palavra. Estão no formato certo? Não tenho muita experiência com citações por aqui; não me interessei ainda em documentar palavras com citações (mas suponho que acabarei fazendo isso também, em algum momento no futuro distante...). Espero que isso baste para que pūķis possa aparecer como "foreign word of the day". --Pereru (talk) 11:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Defini ontem pūķis com a FWOTD do dia 4 (começa hoje às 21:00 em UTC -3, eu acho). Que bom que você colocou mais uma citação. Estão no formato correto (na verdade quase nunca usei o namespace Citations, sempre preferi colocar as citações nas próprias entradas). No entanto, é melhor evitar uso excessivo de abreviaturas como em “1879, P. Alunāns Ēķingrāvē. Balss 1879. g. nr. 84 LP, VlI, II, 734, 4”. Se possível, também coloque o nome do autor entre o ano e o título. — Ungoliant (Falai) 16:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Egyptian Edits[edit]


I see that you reformed the headers at ˤ3, which confirmed to the standard currently set out at Wiktionary:About Egyptian. That standard is still in draft phase, and there is discussion ongoing about these exact points on its talk page, so I was wondering whether you might want to offer some criticism of the policy as a whole - so that it can be brought more into line with wiktionary users' expectations (If so, you'll possibly want to skip past the bits on hieroglyphs).

Your changes were to divide each sub entry into its own etymology, and to shift the alternative forms out front of the POS. With regards to the first change, I'm not sure whether enough is known about Egyptian etymology to do that (But I'm sure this, and I feel it has the potential to add an extra level of clutter to pages where each PoS is a separate etymology.

With regards to the second issue, I'm less ambivalent, as, on the one hand, Egyptian varient spellings tend to be specific to particular parts of speech (i.e. if there is an etymologically linked noun and verb, they'll still probably be written differently in hieroglyphs), while on the other, I want to have the standard hieroglyphs appear first, because otherwise they come awfully late in the entry (Since, unlike in normal entries, they aren't in the title space).

Finally, I note your decision to keep mȝt, which is an alternate modern transcription of m3t (Not really an alternative form in the Egyptian - both are Roman alphabetic representations of the exact same Egyptian word). There has been significant discussion of what to do about these different forms on my talk page (User talk:Furius#Redirects), which didn't really achieve a great deal of consensus (I'd been turning alternate transliterations into redirects and there were objections). I don't think it desirable to have a separate page for each of the many possible transcriptions of any given word - it's very messy, especially since some are really only typographical variants of the same transliteration system (e.g. ȝ vs 3, in which the use of ȝ is non-standard, and 3 is a fallback). I welcome your comments on any or all of these points, as how Egyptian works on wiktionary is only in the very early stages of standardisation. Furius (talk) 06:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

(Egyptian etymology): really? I thought Proto-Semitic was well documented. In any case, the entries will need to be split into various PoS sections, so the clutter is unavoidable.
(they'll still probably be written differently in hieroglyphs): in our standard entry layout alternative forms come before what they are alternative to. You can add the Alternative Forms heading just before the PoS heading plus one level.
(keep mȝt): I should have used {{alternative spelling of}} instead of {{alternative form of}} (now fixed). The best solution would be to use actual hieroglyph characters (Unicode has them) for the actual entries, and have transliteration stubs linking to it. This is how we deal with Gothic (see weihs); Gothic also has transliteration issues (hw vs. ƕ). If both ȝ and 3 are widely used, I suggest both have an entry (one of them as an {{alternative spelling of}}).
I probably won’t be cleaning up Egyptian anymore, because you were whitelisted yesterday and your edits won’t need to be patrolled anymore. — Ungoliant (Falai) 14:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


I think this rollback nd the other were in error. i.e. if you check this page [1] these figures are also revered by non-Biblical faiths. Pass a Method (talk) 07:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, I think putting "Abrahamic" or "Abrahamic religions" as a context is wrong, because even non-religious people use the term "Noah" as the name of "an Old Testament character who [is said to have] built an ark". (It's not like non-religious people call him something else.) But {{biblical character}} is like putting {{context|mammal}} in [[bear]] (something we don't do)... so I think there should be no tag at all, though we may want to raise this issue in a bigger forum. Yes, {{biblical character}} puts entries into Category:en:Biblical characters, but I think categorisation should be done as it is in [[bear]] (which is in Category:en:Mammals "manually"). - -sche (discuss) 09:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
It wasn’t in error. First of all, you used {{sense}} instead of {{context}}. That alone is good enough reason to revert, but if it was just that I’d have fixed it myself. I added the explanation to my undo at Solomon and reverted the other similar edits, hoping that you’d notice Solomon’s edit summary. Here it is: “ It’s a biblical character. If it also found elsewhere elsewhere append another context template.” You see, your removal of the {{biblical character}} template removed Solomon, Noah, etc. from Category:Biblical characters, which is just wrong because they are biblical characters! If you had changed it to {{context|Abrahamic}} (or {{context|Abrahamic religions}}, which I prefer for clarity’s sake) and added Category:Biblical characters manually to the entry I wouldn’t have minded. Even better: create a context template for {{Abrahamic religions}}. Furthermore, things like this require Beer Parlour discussion. — Ungoliant (Falai) 17:50, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Portuguese manuals[edit]

Just to let you know, I got another update that the request for the manuals has been sent, but no response yet. Hopefully soon! --BB12 (talk) 21:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Good to know. — Ungoliant (Falai) 02:23, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
The Cape Verde manual came in, but the content is essentially, "Portuguese is essentially like that in Portugal and here are some links for learning." Also, the Cape Verde post is now closed :(
FWIW, I would like to send the manual to you so you can look at it. What's the best way to to do that? --BB12 (talk) 15:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Oh well, c’est la vie. I’ll send you an e-mail via Wiktionary’s E-mail user tool, which will contain my e-mail so you can send it as an attachment. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Got it. Not very helpful, I was hoping that the manual would have lists of words and expressions unique to Mozambique. But even if they did I probably wouldn’t be able to cite them (in fact, I tried to cite a Mozambican Portuguese word a few months ago, but could only find one cite). Hopefully the Cape Verdean Portuguese manual will have more content, because it is considered a distinct language (ISO code {{kea}}) and it is a LDL :-). — Ungoliant (Falai) 16:34, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I was pretty surprised, but hopefully they will be able to locate the other one. My contact at the Peace Corps seems to be really, really busy, but she sends me periodic updates. She's really kind. --BB12 (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I bet she is! Considering all this effort to help someone she doesn’t even know. — Ungoliant (Falai) 01:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)