User talk:ZxxZxxZ/Archive 1

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Again, welcome! Mglovesfun (talk) 11:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Middle/Old Persian[edit]

Middle and Old Persian do not use the Latin script; see {{pal/script}} and {{peo/script}}. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


Hi. I reverted your edit to this page. I don't know that it was wrong because I don't know the difference between the two words, but they were both deliberately added by the same trusted user, Stephen G. Brown. I don't know about Persian at all, but are you sure that this is what we do to these entries? —Internoob 04:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi, sorry I should explained it in edit summary -- ريال has ي but ریال uses ی, the former letter (ي) is not used in Persian alphabet. --Z 04:41, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Formatting issues[edit]

Hello. First of all, thank you for all your work on Persian/Farsi here. However, there are a few things you need to change in your editing.

  • Please use {{literary}}, not {{literature}}.
  • Please add lang=fa as a parameter to terms in Persian (so it should be {{literary|lang=fa}}).
  • Please do not include "?" in phrasebook links.
  • Please transliterate "â" instead of "aa" and "š" instead of "sh".

I am not trying to be critical, but Wiktionary has very specific standards on these things. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Again, thank you so much helping out here. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Metaknowledge, thank you for tips, I'll take them into account. --Z 01:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Oh, Meta. ZxxZxxZ, the "?" issue is simple to fix. When you're using the tool to insert translations, there's a box for "page name". This will be the same as the question but without punctuation, since page names don't include punctuation. Also see WT:FA TR for more on wiktionary-standard transliteration. I suppose if you really have to, you can ask me for help since I've been around so long and am pretty good with formatting and template-making and all that shit. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Ok, in fact I forgot "?" shouldn't be in title though I think we should create redirect for these sort of phrases. Sure, Cheers --Z 01:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
No, it's not necessary. Punctuation messes with urls. Usually there's a reason for why we do things the way we do. Though some stuff is just some idiot's idea of what a good idea looks like. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
[1] Removing valid content is incredibly inadvisable. You can add, but if it's not incorrect, don't remove it. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
But that's not common at all, I just googled the two, 16,900,000 results for فرزندان and 22,200 results for فرزندها though almost all of them were plural forms of derivated terms of فرزند such as تک فرزند (more correctly تک‌فرزند). And as you know it depends on the word some are more common with ها some ان. --Z 02:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
22 thousand is pretty damn common. We might distinguish between more common and less common, but we don't jettison the less common. There are legitimate standard words in some languages that get less than a hundred hits on google. "farzand-ha" might be colloquial and informal, but it's valid and should be represented. As I understand it, some dialects (or at least some people who aren't well educated) only use -ha as an ending in speech. — [Ric Laurent] — 02:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Re Ric: I'm just trying to be the filter that you lack. I guess I should have let you at the newbie first :-) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


I would have guessed that this was the plural of تشکیل. Why have you put it in derived terms? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

In fact تشکیل never be used as an stand-alond word, but is always used in تشکیل دادن form, and those words "establishment", "organization", etc. are exactly the meaning of تشکیلات and no it is not plural. --Z 22:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I think the page should be moved to تشکیل دادن. --Z 22:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


Don't need - for Persian affixes. — [Ric Laurent] — 19:47, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

OK --Z 19:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

اقول تور, يقول احلبوه[edit]

I see you moved this because it used a "Latin script comma" I guess you could call it. Is this completely wrong, or would Persian sometimes use one? If it is completely wrong (which I would assume but I want confirmation) I'll delete the redirect because if that's the case it should not be there. 50 Xylophone Players talk 21:22, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, generally Latin characters may rarely be used over Internet for languages which don't use Latin, but that's only because of lack of proper support for other scripts etc. Btw that wasn't Persian. --Z 23:14, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Ahh, yes sorry...I don't know, I was probably thinking of Persian for some reason lol. Thanks anyway, I'll delete this then. 50 Xylophone Players talk 03:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Help at Cologne and cologne[edit]

Hi, I wonder if you would be able to help with the issue I've raised at Wiktionary:Tea room#Cologne and cologne in Persian. Thanks in advance if you can! —Angr 21:39, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

corruption in Persian[edit]


It seems that both "fesâd" and "fasâd" are OK in Persian, according to the Persian fa:فساد, which shows فَ یا فِ in top right corner. Do you agree? "fasâd" also matches closer the Arabic and Tajik pronunciation, if that matters. --Anatoli (обсудить) 02:51, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, the colloquial form is fesâd, so are in the words عدالت edâlat (from Arabic adālat), حرکت harekat (Arabic Harakat), etc. In past, the former Persianized forms were considered wrong and for example the media used to use the latter forms, but now this is the other way around and using those rare forms are wrong (in Iranian Persian). But since it is being used in other regions, I think it's a good idea to include the both forms. --Z 03:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I think it's worth to show both styles (standard, colloquial) if the spelling is the same. The entry, if exist may clarify the difference. --Anatoli (обсудить) 03:34, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


Hi, could you translate attic into Persian, please? Do you mind if I ask you directly for some Persian translations in the future? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, certainly, please feel free to do so. --Z 23:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


How is Template:pal 𐭬𐭭 ‎(az) a descendant of Template:arc מן ‎(min)? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 13:37, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The transcription of 𐭬𐭭 is mn, but it is pronounced as az. Actually, it's not a loanword, it's a huzvarishn, a type of logogram unique to Pahlavi. --Z 13:50, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I see. So the spelling is derived from Template:arc, while the pronunciation is native Template:pal? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 13:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes --Z 13:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

chemical elements[edit]

Do you mind adding some Persian translations to Category:en:Chemical elements? Arabic translations need reformatting. I have added some. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:24, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Certainly, will do. --Z 06:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


You beat me on the Persian translation by one minute:) I actually wanted to romanise it as "mosâhabe", not "mosâhebe". Is mosâhabe a variant pronunciation? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:10, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard that, Arabic loanwords in مفاعلة wazn are always pronounced like mofâ'ele. --Z 11:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, thank you. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


We transliterate that as dzh usually; see WT:AYI. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Is بیگ مک citeable? If so, could you create the entry? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:34, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Yeah created. --Z 18:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

random not so important question[edit]

I'm just curious how you would translate this into English (I have only a loose understanding of the general context):

رفیقان قدر یکدیگر بدونین
خدا کی می‌دهد عمر دوباره

Thanks in advance. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It means, O friends, appreciate each other
God will never give you more than one life. --Z 21:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
The second sentence is called استفهام انکاری estefhâm-e enkâri, it literary means "when will god give you another life? [Never.]" --Z 21:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Persian poetry is beautiful. Would you like to make an entry for استفهام انکاری?, I'd be interested in that. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again, but this made me really curious about the rest of the chorus of the song. Once again I understand most of the individual words, but I don't trust my brutish American way of thinking to interpret the subtlety of Persian lyricism. Could you tell me what this part means?

شب مهتاب و ابر پاره پاره
شراب خلر و می در پیاله

I'm actually not entirely sure she says "خلر" in the song, regardless of the original poem... I've heard her change little things before. But I can't make out the word she uses there, if it's not xollar. I might end up breaking down and just begging you to translate the whole song. D: — [Ric Laurent] — 00:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Kinda hard to translate... these are sort of phrases that ghazals are sometimes started with, to indicate the person is in love. It literary mean "moonlight night [moon and moonlight mean the beloved], and torn apart cloud [lover], and wine of Xollar in the cup" - خلر Xollar / خلار Xollâr is a village which used to be famous for its wine.[2] (see the second def in last line) --Z 11:24, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
BTW شراب šarâb and می mey are synonyms. Let me know if you need help to translate the rest of it. --Z 11:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I'll definitely need help... Persian is a surprisingly evasive language. It's so much more subtle than most languages; the smallest things seem to change the meaning of a sentence so drastically... I only recently learned about ta'ârof. It seems to be incredibly deep-rooted.
The other part of the song I'm most interested in is the first part, in which she uses the word bogzâšt, which doesn't make sense to me. It looks like a subjunctive, but with the past stem?
جوانی هم بهاری بود و بگذشت
به ما یک اعتباری بود و بگذشت
میان ما و تو یک لتفی بود
که آن هم نو بهاری بود و بگذشت
I think, if I'm going to keep editing once in a while, that I'll go back to Persian. زبان مهمه. — [Ric Laurent] — 14:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
bogzâšt may be subjunctive, but here it is past simple and ب (pronunced be or bo, depends on the stem, and the dialect) is undefinable and is added to verbs for emphasis, so it means "passed, elapsed". به ما یک اعتباری بود means "we (I) used to have prestige", میان ما و تو یک لطفی بود "there used to be a kindness between us", که آن هم نوبهاری بود و بگذشت "but that was a 'spring', and it passed" (hard to translate really) --Z 14:58, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I suppose the sad nature of that explains why the 'cloud' she refers to later is pârepâre. But yes, I always find it hard to translate Persian to English, even when it's relatively straightforward. There's an inherent poetry and deliberate elusiveness to it, while in English you sometimes have to fight to be indirect. Thanks for your help, Z. I'll probably be back to bother you more at some point, but for now I'll try to control myself. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:06, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
xaahesh mikonam, feel free to do that. Btw you can find me on Yahoo/gtalk, too, I'm online most of the day. --Z 15:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm online the vast majority of the time. I'll send you an email. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

ZWNJ=- for {{fa-adj}}[edit]

You only need that for words that end in ر ژ د و, stuff that doesn't join. تندتر doesn't need ZWNJ like تازه‌تر does. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:26, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, don't know why used that there lol. --Z 22:29, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I feel like it might be about time to do more template stuff. Well, not tonight, maybe tomorrow. I'm about to go finish reading زندگی. It's pretty good, buuuuut I have a feeling it might maybe be banned in Iran so I'm not sure you'd be able to find it lol :) — [Ric Laurent] — 23:54, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

هی! "کس‌شعر" کجاست؟! lol :) — [Ric Laurent] — 00:36, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

lol will create it. --Z 00:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Awesome :) — [Ric Laurent] — 00:58, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


You nominated this for March 21, but Wikipedia says Nowruz will be March 20 this year (link). So, which is it? — Ungoliant (Falai) 13:35, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it apparently starts on March 20 this year. --Z 19:06, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Specifically, wouldn't it start at nightfall on the 19th? — [Ric Laurent] — 19:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
According to here it is on 20, although I think it's not very important which day exactly we FWOTD it, cause the celebration lasts for several days not a single day. --Z 06:25, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Added for March 20. Thanks for citing and nominating it dude. — Ungoliant (Falai) 22:52, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

یه فکر کوچک[edit]

Since pronunciation tends to have such variation between Iranian and Dari, do you think it would be fair to have two transliterations for fa- templates? It could show up something like this:

شیر (šir Irani, šēr Dari)

[Ric Laurent] — 20:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

What about changing the transliteration system for Persian? If we transliterate everything as in Classic Persian, then the reader can understand the pronunciation for Iranian, Dari, Tajik, etc., the disadvantage is it would looks odd for those who are not familiar with varieties other than Iranian Persian. --Z 06:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Then someone who doesn't know what the Classical Persian pronunciation was wouldn't be able to add stuff. — [Ric Laurent] — 14:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
You could add regional pronunciation to {{fa-regional}}, so that it doesn't clutter the entry entirely. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:51, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I like this idea, but I hate that template lol. It's always interfering with tables. :(
Hey there. Sorry to butt in, but I'd support the idea of doing transliteration based on Classical Persian. It's pretty much how most older dictionaries do it, too, so it wouldn't be too strange. --Dijan (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
We'd need to modify WT:FA TR pretty heavily. I'd also like for pronunciation sections to have individual transliterations just for the sake of people who only really care about modern Iranian Persian and can have that little bit of deference shown them lol. It would be easy to add this to Zx's big-bad Persian pronunciation template. It could maybe look like this:

(unindenting) Just an idea. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Fekre digari, if we do what I mention above, we could get rid of that horrible right-side-floating fa-regional and add its functionality to M's template. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I actually like the "regional" box! I was thinking about adding the transliterations to it, rather than having them in the pronunciation section. --Dijan (talk) 06:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Adding transliterations to fa-regional will make it too big, and there are other variations of Persian with differences in writing system that can be added to that table, which will make it even bigger. I think the best place for content of fa-regional is "alternative spellings" section (either in a list or table), this one is much more flexible than that box. --Z 13:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
از این فکر خیلی خوشم می آد. Then it wouldn't have to be a box, it could just be a regular list made from a template. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:44, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I suggest these two: {{User:ZxxZxxZ/sandbox|prs=خانه‌گی|prstr=xānagī|pes=خانگی|pestr=xânegi|tg=хонагӣ|tgtr=xonagī|teh=خونگی|tehtr=xunegi}}


variety IPA Rhymes Optional column Audio Homophones Hyphenation
NL /ˈrɛizə(n)/ -ə(n) VALUE
rijzen rei‧zen
BE /ˈrɛːzn/ [ˈrɛːzn̩] rei‧zen
/ˈrɛːzə/ rijzn
Sandwich Islands /gumbalagumba/

{{User:ZxxZxxZ/sandbox2|prs=خانه‌گی|prstr=xānagī|pes=خانگی|pestr=xânegi|tg=хонагӣ|tgtr=xonagī|teh=خونگی|tehtr=xunegi}} Script error: The function "template_IPAchar" does not exist. I think the latter is better. --Z 08:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

من هم. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:35, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

سومین سوال[edit]

Is my syntax correct here?

  1. کتابی رو که بهت دادم هنوز می‌خونیش؟
    Ketâbi ro ke behet dâdam hanuz mi-xuniš?
    Are you still reading the book that I gave you?
    Almost yeah, a pronoun is needed before کتابی, it works as "the": اون کتابی .... --Z 06:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I just realized I added the extra -š. If I took that off, it wouldn't need on, right?
Hmm, no, keeping or removing that -š makes no difference. --Z 18:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Lol okay. Thanks. I'll try to quit bothering you with this stuff for a while. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 18:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I lied. I have one "On zani ro ke Behrang bâhâš ezdevâj kard mi-šnâsi"? - Do you know the woman to whom Behrang got married? — is that one okay?
Haha lol, yeah it's correct. --Z 18:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Actually, in that case can the "on" be dropped because the pronoun is expressed in bâhâš? — [Ric Laurent] — 18:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
"on" may be dropped (keeping/removing it has nothing to do with other pronouns), but it makes your speech less colloquial. --Z 19:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Haha, okay. I'll just start adding pronouns to everything, čon ye divune :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:03, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Automatic Tajik transliteration[edit]

Tajik transliteration is now done automatically by means of Module:tg-translit (for more on how modules work and what they are, see WT:LUA). It should follow WT:TG TR precisely, but if anything goes awry, please tell me. I have converted all the templates except {{tg-conj}}, so now it is unnecessary to enter tr= values for those; note that {{t}} and friends still need tr=, however. I'm not sure exactly which values of {{tg-conj}} match to which, so I haven't converted it; help with that would be appreciated.

Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:14, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Auto-translit of plurals for {{tg-noun}} has been messed up. ҷавон#Noun[Ric Laurent] — 00:30, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Interestingly, the auto-translit for {{tg-adj}} is unaffected. That one is also used on the entry I linked to. — [Ric Laurent] — 00:33, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
There's also something weird going on where {{tg-verb}} is displaying stuff like "present stem боф (bof) ({{{prstem2}}})" бофтан[Ric Laurent] — 00:38, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg All fixed. Thanks for catching my mistakes. I've written a bunch more of these transliteration modules, they're all at Category:Transliteration modules. I'm going to do more later on, Mongolian is next. First I'll try to autotransliterate {{tg-conj}}, please tell me if I fuck up. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:07, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
{{tg-conj}} Yes check.svg done. Looks good to me. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:25, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
The problem there is that now there is a totally useless unnamed parameter between those for the past and present stems. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:56, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Look again at ҷавон#Noun. Some extra }} there. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Blame poorly written templates. Or blame me. It's all the same, really. Anyway, both problems are now fixed.
I really appreciate you checking my work. Now on to the Kazakh and Mongolian templates. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:17, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! Looks good! :) --Dijan (talk) 05:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Feedback on تازیک[edit]

Can you comment here? Thanks. — Ungoliant (Falai) 12:53, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Certainly --Z 13:42, 16 March 2013 (UTC)


Just so you know, I got that directly from Persian wikipedia lol. Maybe I mistranslated it, but yeah. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 17:37, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

(That is, the sentence about Tajiks.) The "aqovam" came from Dehxoda. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Your interpretation was correct, the sentence in the Persian Wikipedia article was poorly written, actually. Dehkhoda says it's [ اَق ْ ] I guess you has read the saaken character, ْ , as zammeh, ُ   (it's a common mistake) --Z 17:52, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
You're right lol... چه خرفتی هستم. Thanks for keeping me from ruining everything, M. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
خواهش می‌کنم، انگلیسیِ خودم کمتر غلط نداره[3][4] lol --Z 18:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Practically unnoticeable :) — [Ric Laurent] — 18:46, 16 March 2013 (UTC)



You could probably make this module even better for Persian than you did for Arabic? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:05, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

fa-translit won't be a good idea as I explained here (one of the main problems is majhul vav and yeh, which cannot be represented in Arabic script). Moreover, in Arabic dictionaries it is common to fully vocalize words, but it's not so for Persian words, and Persian dictionaries use other ways, see Dehkhoda, Moeen, and Amid for example, all of which don't vocalize words themselves, but mention the vowels as [ ت َ ل َف ْ ف ُ ], because vocalizing words only make it harder to read (at least for native speakers). ناظم‌الاطبا aka فرنودسار dictionary (written in 1920s) has even used Latin alphabet to represent vowels. Arabic language is an exception, and its not odd for readers to see fully vocalize Arabic words (maybe because Quranic phrases and verses are always written fully vocalized). --Z 13:55, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Alright. Thanks for your answer. I've seen diacritics in translations to Persian, though? Perhaps it could be useful for those who just want to learn the Persian script or to understand what letters are used, letter by letter, e.g. زبان فارسی as "zbân fârsi" (not "zabân-e fârsi"). Arabic letters cause many people a problem. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Other use I can see is: if I were to romanise a larger text (user examples), I would just copy the converted text and insert the missing vowel. Please consider. I'll make a basic module, so you can add more complicated code. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Writing a JS code is a better way for this porpuse, I'll do that. --Z 00:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Letter by letter transliteration is easy to do (not just for Persian, but for Arabic and other Semitic scripts), (I prefer ʾ, y, and w for aleph, ya' and waw though; e.g. zbʾn fʾrsy), but I think it should be hidden by default if we are going to add it. It is possible to produce it in output and put it in a specific class, e.g. <span class"fa-letter-by-letter-tr">zbʾn fʾrsy</span>, and change the "display" property of the class to "none" in MediaWiki:Common.css, so it wouldn't be shown by default, but people who are interesting to see it can easily do that by changing the display property of the class to "inline" from their common.css subpage. --Z 00:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I made the basic code. A call to the module on زبان فارسی gives "Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'gsub' (string expected, got table)" (as of the current code it's "zbân fârsi") but please change as you see fit. I think aleph is pretty predictable after consonants, to give "â"? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:06, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I did it quickly, please check for any errors or missing symbols. My Persian is almost non-existent, unfortunately. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:08, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I just created a JS script for transliterating fa, you can activate it by adding importScript('User:ZxxZxxZ/faTranslit.js'); to your common.js, then a button titled "faTranslit" will appear near the "Save page" button. --Z 01:37, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
It's good! It can be dangerous, though. I see it modifies the text - replaces Persian letters with Latin. Perhaps you need to document and let people know about it. Is there a function that only displays, not replace letters? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:52, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
What about now? (clear cache if you see no changes) --Z 02:06, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Great tool! Please make an Arabic version. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:12, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Are you able to make it work on a selected text, not on the whole area? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes it's technically possible, but needs more effort (I've already tried, but it doesn't work for some reasons not clear to me). I've created User:ZxxZxxZ/arTranslit.js BTW. --Z 03:01, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks again. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:07, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
No problem, please tell me if you found any errors (I haven't tested the codes). --Z 03:09, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


Hi ZxxZxxZ
thanks for your edits concerning Kurdish entries.Best regards--GeorgeAnimal. 14:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Hey, no problem --Z 15:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


I saw you changed the template for xordan, but the -lit template doesn't have be=bo; I didn't realize bo- was used even in literary pronunciation? If it is, I'll add it at some point. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah it's always bo. --Z 01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I'll update the template soon. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:19, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


Why didn't it just come straight from Arabic? It looks a lot closer to the Arabic than to the Middle Persian. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

If it was from Arabic, it would be /ruːˈmiː/ in New Persian, but it's /roːˈmiː/ in Classic, Dari, and Tajik (with a bit difference) Persian (in Iranian Persian, however, ō has become [uː], and the transliteration system in en.wiktionary is based on Iranian pronunciation). Btw Roman Empire was also lwm Rōm in Middle Persian (beside hlwm Hrōm) (see last words in transcription section) which is the same as the New Persian word for Roman Empire (روم Rōm), and that ـی -ī suffix is from Middle Persian -īk/-īg and is of Indo-European origin, Arabic -ī has the same function, but it's from a different root. --Z 00:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Fascinating. Рахмат! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I just realized[edit]

I don't remember how to make the negatives of multi-word verb forms. lol.

  • nákarde bấšam / kardé nábấšam?
  • nákarde búdam / kardé nábudam?
  • náxâham kard / xâham nákard?
  • nadâram mi-konam / dâram nemi-konam? (Is this one even used?)

[Ric Laurent] — 02:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The former forms are the correct ones. The last one is a hard question LoL, no I don't think such form is used. --Z 02:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Sweet, I'll get to work on this now. مرسی رفیقم :) — [Ric Laurent] — 15:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


Hi. Thanks for your help there. There is one more debugging request: for function M.romaji_to_kata(f), I want to have the string replaced using rk4, rk3, rk2, rk1 sequentially, like the previous one. When I invoke it, however, "tsyuchifye" should generate "ツュチフィェ" but it instead now generates "ツュチフィェ". Could you please take a look and see where went wrong? Thanks. Wyang (talk) 04:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

NP, I just took a look on how the Japanese writing system works to see if there is better ways to convert terms. One thing that I noted is that romaji looks to be irreversible (for example, wi may be both ヰ and ウィ), so is it really possible to convert from romaji to katakana? --Z 05:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Ah, I should have removed these one-to-many ones (also zu). It is convertible. ヰ is obsolete in modern Japanese, so wi should be mapped to ウィ. Similarly zu should correspond to ズ, not ヅ. I suppose there are alternative ways of writing this, by analysing what follows the consonant. It definitely requires more work; don't know if that would work though. Wyang (talk) 05:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
It's irreversible, unfortunately or, at least, may not be very accurate. People can usually bear with "おう" being converted to "ou", in words where should be "ō" but the other way around is worse. We don't romanise "東京" (とうきょう) as "toukyou" but "Tōkyō" but "大きい" (おおきい) is also romanised with "ō" as "ōkii. Letter "ヅ" can be romanised as "dzu" to make it different from "ズ" (so it's used when typing) but usually it's "zu". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Katakana/hiragana to romaji would be useful to create romaji transliteration and romaji entries, so would katakana to hiragana (to build sorting keys in categories). Not sure about hiragana to katakana but most animals, onomatopoeia, etc. have variant spellings in katakana. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:36, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
This shouldn't pose a difficulty, if the algorithm is: 1) de-macron, "ō" -> "ou", 2) "to" -> "と", 3) "o" -> "お". Wyang (talk) 05:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
You probably missed the section about "ōkii", it's おおきい (ookii), not おうきい (oukii). I don't understand what you meant by 2) "to" -> "と", 3) "o" -> "お". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Let me continue this at Module talk:ja. Wyang (talk) 05:59, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok, let me fix katakana to romaji converter meanwhile (it has some errors, e.g. キキュ > , generally using "." and then looking at the table is not a good approach if we are not going to transliterate letters one to one), I want to make sure if this algorithm works (as an alternative for kr2): find small forms (i, u, etc.), look for preceding katakana character and turn it to its romaji equivalent constant and also turn the small form to its romaji equivalent. (it would be possible to create romaji to katakana converter based on this, if romaji is reversible) --Z 05:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

OK. This list is probably of importance to you...


Wyang (talk) 05:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

It appears to working well now. Great! Thanks. Wyang (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's for script detection. Well... I think I finally got that one working. Wyang (talk) 08:24, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Script errors in Module:fa-adj[edit]

There are some Persian entries in Category:Pages with script errors, and you were the last to edit this module. Could you have a look please? —CodeCat 18:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Fixed --Z 03:39, 12 April 2013 (UTC)


Hey M., I'm insufficiently confident in my formulation of the sentence I added to هواپیما.

شرکتشون پنج‌تا رو از نوترین هواپیماهای موجود می‌خره.

It looks reasonably correct to me, but I'm not sure whether the direct object marker works where it is, or should it go after mowjud, or does it matter at all? — [Ric Laurent] — 00:33, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey, yeah the best place is after mowjud (the object is پنج‌تا از نوترین هواپیماهای موجود, btw جدید is better than نو here), it's bearable to some extent to see raa far from ahead of the object (where it should be), but it's wrong to put it before its place, so it's safer to put it as ahead as possible. --Z 03:52, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
It seemed like panj-taa ro would be best since when I think about it, "I bought five" is the main part of it, and then "az havaapeymaa" is supplemental. But yeah, I'll fix it up now. :D
Can you clarify some of the difference between now and jadid? — [Ric Laurent] — 04:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
(When you say 'as ahead as possible', do you mean as close as possible to the verb?) — [Ric Laurent] — 04:11, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
It sometimes comes after verb, e.g. کتاب‌هایی که خریدی رو آوُردی؟, where کتاب‌هایی is object. It's incorrect though, but it's common, especially in spoken language. The correct form is کتاب‌هایی رو که خریدی آوُردی؟. jadid جدید has a wider meaning, نو is usually used as opposed to کهنه, I'll fix the translations now. --Z 04:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Can you tell me if I've translated this correctly? "I need you to come as soon as possible" هرچه زودتر بیآیی لازم دارم.[Ric Laurent] — 15:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
می‌خوام هرچه سریع‌تر/زودتر بیای (we don't use "I need" in sentences like that) --Z 15:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
ولی چرا؟ What if it's imperative that the person be there! Like for instance, if that person is the only one who has some knowledge required to solve a problem. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
That's actually imperative. For that case, you can also use something like به کمکت احتیاج دارم --Z 15:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to guess that there are some subtle differences between niâz dâštan, lâzem dâštan and ehtiâj dâštan? Oooor are they more or less interchangeable with only differences in syntax? — [Ric Laurent] — 03:35, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
نیاز داشتن and احتیاج داشتن are the same, except that in spoken language, the latter is more common. لازم داشتن has a different syntax (takes direct object), and is usually used for objects and tools. --Z 03:59, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
When you say 'the latter', you mean niâz dâštan, right? The mix of left-to-right and right-to-left muddles the clarity :) — [Ric Laurent] — 23:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
lol no ehtiyaaj daashtan. --Z 06:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I just thought it would be the other because it's shorter. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 20:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


The use of "el-translit" in {{el-l}} looks good - thanks. A couple of questions: (1) is it ready for use elsewhere (eg Greek headword line templates - I'm not ready to do this immediately tho')? (2) Is there documentation to go with Lua/Scribunto functions? — Saltmarshαπάντηση 16:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

NP; (1) yes it's ready to be used everywhere, I didn't add that to the templates because we would probably eventually remove it, since link and head templates will be eventually Lua-ized in a way that they'll automatically add transliterations to languages which has translit modules (see the second example at Template:l-list to see what I mean), but since we are making progress much slower than I thought first (the codes are almost ready, the problem is gaining community consensus, and finding an admin who cares to make a simple edit on the templates, it's funny but I find this last stage the hardest part), so it's better to temporarily use translit modules in the templates directly. (2) See WT:LUA, w:WP:LUA --Z 17:07, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
@Z: Consensus can be hard, but finding an admin to make the edits is not. I'll gladly do that if the half-dozen people who are active at WT:GP agree to something reasonable.
@Saltmarsh: Would you like me to add it to all the templates? That's something I got a lot of practice with when I did Tajik :) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
(2)/@Z: - thanks - I understand that - but is the documentation for each function available?
@Μετάknowledge - please feel free to add "el-translit" to the el-headword templates - I shall get my head around the new language sometime, but will happily get on with conjugating Greek verbs! — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Re Lua documentation: Yes, take a look at
Re templatisation: What about the other templates? Remember, we can even avoid needed to input translit in conjugation templates, among other things. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks - most conjugations & declensions are quite cluttered enough already without more text in the table. I'll have to look through the Greek templates to see where translit is applicable, but I think that Category:Greek headword-line templates must contain most of them. cheers — Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
We don't actually need to add more text to the tables. We could add transliteration as tooltips that appear when you hover over the links. I think Arabic already does this. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:00, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Ah! That sounds good — even more thanks! — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Module_talk:tg-translit#И, и[edit]


Could you have a look at this, please? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)



Do you know Hebrew at all (I don't)? Do you think that module could be improved? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It would be great, if you could also give some hints on how to make Module:hi-translit (Hindi) better :), which is much easier. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:47, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
For Hebrew, I think it is ambiguous to see "(a/o)" in transliteration, because readers may think it is correct with both "a" and "o", while we mean it is either "a" or "o". Maybe the best choice is one-by-one, reversible transliteration, e.g. ʿvry for עברי. Lets wait to see what's Ruakh's opinion.
I changed Module:hi-translit a bit. --Z 08:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! I'll have a look. There's a script error, could you fix it, please? (Lua error: attempt to concatenate field '?' (a nil value)., Module:hi-translit:37). See Module talk:hi-translit. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
That a/o thing is contextual, but I'm unfamiliar with the rules of it. You'll have to ask Ruakh, though I'm not sure that it will be easy to translate the linguistic context into this kind of code. However, I'm not at all familiar with the code; I'm just being skeptical. — [Ric Laurent] — 02:33, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
By the way M., چند روزی می‌شه که باهات صحبت نکرده‌ام. امیدوارم که حالت خوب و زندگیت پر از گل‌های قشنگ باشه. Okay that was a little gay and unnecessary, I apologize lol, but I do stand by the main feeling. — [Ric Laurent] — 02:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Haha lol, thank you. --Z 05:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Not really contextual, just most words read it as /a/ and a bunch read it as /o/, so I advise hardcoding the exceptions and assuming /a/. The truth is, that's one of the smallest problems with the module. Ruakh is not very active right now, but I think the module is doomed anyway, because Hebrew simply does not take kindly to romanisation. The module will never be able to accurately romanise a paragraph of Hebrew if it is going to stay at a reasonable size. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
But still we can do reversible transliteration correctly, it is usefull when no transliteration is given. --Z 05:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree with this. @Z. Could you please fix Module:hi-translit, as it's still not working on the longer test below:

Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'gsub' (string expected, got table). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:23, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --Z 06:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, it looks much better. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:59, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course there are way more "a"s than would be actually heard in language. This auto-translit is bad for abjads and abugidas :P — [Ric Laurent] — 12:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
The rules for reading Hindi consonants is not hard at all (not like abjads) but it's hard to make them work in the module and would require both a good knowledge of Lua and understanding how to read in Hindi. However, Sanskrit, unlike Hindi pronounces all inherent "a"s, unless they are killed with virama. So, this module works for Sanskrit, AFAIK. :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
So, this module should be used for Sanskrit and not Hindi? --Dijan (talk) 20:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
This module still needs some work, like making the final consonant drop "a", and other situations where the inherent "a" is dropped.--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:31, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, the "a" is not very predictable, therefore the implementation of this into the module is not a good idea. According to Mahendra Caturvedi (A Practical Hindi-English Dictionary): "The vowel is seldom pronounced at the end of a word and in some cases, at the end of a syllable. Thus, 'आप' is pronounced as 'आप्' and 'आवश्यकता' as 'आवश्यक्‌ता'... But when preceded by a compound consonant some people (esp. Sanskrit knowing people) do pronounce it, fully or partly. ... In fact, this post-compound consonantal '' has not altogether disappeared in pronunciation and that is why we thought it prudent to retain it--again, perhaps, with a view to err on the right side, if at all." (He is referring to retaining the "a" in transliteration in his dictionary.)
I don't feel comfortable with automatic transliteration. It takes away from having someone look over and make sure there are no errors. --Dijan (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Pahlavi and Imperial Aramaic writing direction[edit]

Hey Z,

I've noticed that the writing direction of entries you've created in the Pahlavi and Imperial Aramaic scripts seems to be left-to-right rather than right-to-left. Is that a mistake on your part or is my computer just not displaying the fonts correctly? --334a (talk) 04:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I see them correctly. --Z 05:59, 1 May 2013 (UTC)



I tried to make a similar Sinhalese module - Module:si-translit (based on Hindi - Module:hi-translit) but failed. I don't understand how some parts of the code work. Could you help please, so that siṁhala worked? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, looks to be fixed. --Z 01:46, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Thank you so much! You lost a few letters in conversion, I've just added them. Would it be possible NOT to add the inherent vowel "a" when a consonant is followed by ‎()? It's like the Arabic sukūn, it suppresses the inherent vowel "a". You'll see it in the module with the comment "hal kirīma".
I tried to do it:
elseif d == "්" then -- hal kirīma
return consonants[c]
but it didn't work. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
For testing, ශ්‍රී ලංකාව ‎(ś‍rī laṁkāva) should be transliterated as "śrī la ̃kāva", not "śa‍rī la ̃kāva". ‎(śa) is followed by ‎(). ś‍rī laṁkāva. (I'll think about nasalisation later). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:22, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Fixed. --Z 02:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
You're genius, thank you very much! I like the result. I'll bug you again (if I may) re: Module:hi-translit and Module:ko-translit (the latter was done by User:Ruakh, will see if he's available). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:44, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh, NP. --Z 02:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Help with Persian entries[edit]

The category Category:term cleanup/sc=fa-Arab contains a list of pages that use {{term}} with Persian Arabic specified as the script, but no language (lang=). Most of these are probably Persian words, so sc=fa-Arab should be replaced by lang=fa in those cases. But I think that there are also other languages that use that script code, so it can't be done automatically in case it's guessed wrong. Can you help out? —CodeCat 22:28, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. --Z 02:21, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Arabic Frequency lists[edit]


I've imported some Arabic frequency lists from Quranic Arabic Corpus (together with their mistakes :/) - Appendix:Arabic Quranic Verbs and Appendix:Arabic Freqency List from Quran. The appendices have some raw transliteration - Module:ar-translit (which could be tweaked a bit). Could you have a brief look and check general word accuracy, please? I also think they sometimes used diacritics in the wrong place. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:00, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, will do. --03:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Kurdish kuže[edit]

Hi, Z! I can't type Arabic. Could you please give me the correct spelling of the Kurdish word kuže ‎(marten) found in Justi's dictionary here, p. 349, 2nd column, rendered as koujé. I need it for կուզ ‎(kuz). Also, is there on online comprehensive dictionary for Kurdish, similar to Steingass or Dehkhoda for Persian? --Vahag (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I added it. No, unfortunately there's no online comprehensive one. I personally use --Z 15:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Persian translations lacking transliteration[edit]


You might be interested in Category:Persian translations lacking transliteration or Category:Tajik translations lacking transliteration. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:12, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Tajik ones will be automatically transliterated after we Lua-ized the "t" templates. For Persian, I check subcategories of Category:Requests (Persian) time to time, but this one is really horrible, 1320 entries... so I never got around to do it. --Z 18:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


Hi there. I have rolled back your edit to this module (what was it supposed to do?). It caused a problem with {{it-noun}} in that it no longer allowed a gender of "mf" - see miope. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:24, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi. The current version doesn't tag terms with appropriate class and lang attribute. It is similar to "{{l|it|word}}" vs. "[[word]]" (the former is correct). I couldn't fix gender issue unfortunately. "mf" is actually non-standard, we should use "m-f" in templates. --Z 15:43, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
In Italian, we have been using "mf" for well over five years. I don't understand what "doesn't tag terms with appropriate class ..." means. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:51, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
It means it doesn't add the "headword" class to the term, as Template:head does. --Z 15:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I still don't understand the significance of that. Let's be more concrete. I have created a temporary SBtest. It has an adjective section that uses the it-head module and a noun section that uses "head". Show me what's missing in the adjective section. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Well there's nothing to show and see here. Attributes of HTML elements should always be specified, many features work based on them. A screen reader need to know what is the language of the text. Language fonts works only if the language is specified. Users will be able to change style of Italian terms, or headwords, say, change its colour or make it less or more bold, by the "headword" class that we use. --Z 16:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree with ZxxZxxZ but it's possible to do this in other ways. Module:nl-headword and Module:ca-headword correctly tag all the text as well, maybe you can use them as an example. —CodeCat 16:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Could/should we change Module:gender and number to work with mf and similar formats as well? --Z 16:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
A single standard format that most/all templates use would be preferable. Currently there is no way to specify multiple genders with a single string, but support for that could be added. A format_string function next to format_list for example (that's why I renamed it). —CodeCat 17:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Lua help[edit]

How can I add the rule ["ո՛ւ"]="ú" to Module:hy-translit, without it being overridden by the rule ["ո՛"]="ó"? --Vahag (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

You should do the replacement for ú before the one for ó. I suggest you to delete the 22nd line and replace it with
    f = mw.ustring.gsub(f, 'Ո[ւՒ]', 'U')
    f = mw.ustring.gsub(f, 'ու', 'u')
    f = mw.ustring.gsub(f, 'ո՛ւ', 'ú')
    f = mw.ustring.gsub(f, 'ո՛', 'ó')
    f = mw.ustring.gsub(f, '.', tt)
    return f
--Z 18:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
It's working, thanks. Another question: is it possible to redirect modules to each other, e.g. Module:axm-translit to Module:hy-translit? --Vahag (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
No it's not, but you can invoke the latter in axm-translit and use its tr() function there, so that every change in hy-translit will be applied in axm-translit as well. I myself prefer to make it script-based, as in Module:Avst-translit. --Z 19:38, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, I'll move the main module to Module:Armn-translit. How do I invoke Module:Armn-translit in Module:hy-translit exactly? --Vahag (talk) 20:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
local Armn_translit = require('Module:Armn-translit') -- invoke
    return -- use
--Z 20:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I get a script error. Please see e.g. pedestrian crossing. --Vahag (talk) 20:22, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Are you sure that all languages written in Armenian script will use the exact same transliteration? —CodeCat 20:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes. I used different transliteration schemes for modern and Old Armenian until 2011, but now they are unified. If some day we decide to separate them again, we can simply stop redirecting Module:hy-translit, Module:axm-translit and Module:xcl-translit to Module:Armn-translit. --Vahag (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

New appendix[edit]

As a participant in an associated discussion, you are invited to contribute to the list of terms and criteria at Appendix:Terms considered difficult or impossible to translate into English. Cheers,   — C M B J   10:57, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

عمامه turban[edit]

Hi Z,

I beat by seconds and added the alternative translation عمامه but I romanised it as the fa.wikt suggested عِ مِ. Not sure if they mark gemination. Is "'em(m)âme" also used? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

There are various romanisations around. Is it possible that various Persian dialects pronounce the word something between Arabic "ʿimāma" and Tajik "ammoma" with variations like 'emâme, 'emmâme, 'amâme, 'ammâme? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. They are kasreh. fa.wikt entries are mostly created/edited by bots which just copy'n'paste stuff from Mo'in and Dehkhoda dictionaries. I checked the two, both have vocalized it as emâma/emâme; but these dictionaries tend to consider the original Arabic pronunciation as the "correct" one for Arabic loanwords. The Classic Persian pronunciation is probably imāma, but regarding modern Persian, I personally never heared these forms, only ammâme (also, if you look at w:fa:عمامه, it is vocalized as ammâme there too). Since the Tajik one is also ammoma, then it is probably ammâma in other Eastern dialects e.g. Dari as well. --Z 12:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. I've change the Persian romanisation to "'ammâme, 'emâme" in turban#Translations (since 'emâme is also in the dictionaries and maybe considered more "classical" Persian). Feel free to change it if you feel strongly against it. (I didn't check w:fa:عمامه as they seldom provide vocalisation.) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Persian fonts[edit]

Hey! Have the fonts for Persian changed lately? It looks terrible now. And this just started a few days ago. I thought it was just my computer, maybe the browser, but I've tried several computers today at work and all of them display Persian specifically (using the fa-Arab Template) with a really ugly font (in Internet Explorer it looks fine, but in Chrome and Firefox it looks really weird). --Dijan (talk) 16:40, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, they haven't changed, and I can see them as before (IranianSans font). You can change the font for Persian by adding this to your common.css (replace 'Tahoma' with the font you'd like):
:lang(fa) {
    font-family: Tahoma;
--Z 05:48, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
That's the thing. I like Tahoma, but it's not showing up as Tahoma in Chrome for some reason (not just on my personal computer, but at work also). Whatever it is, it is only affecting Persian and Azeri (as far as I can tell). Urdu and Pashto still show up with Tahoma, as does Ottoman Turkish. Azeri shows up mixed with whatever the ugly font is and Tahoma (the declension tables for example show up with mixed fonts). Kurdish and Arabic still show up with their respective fonts. Let me know if you can find anything else out about this. --Dijan (talk) 08:39, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
OK, I think it might be Iranian Sans that I'm referring to as the ugly font. Was it implemented for everyone or just you? And when was it added? --Dijan (talk) 08:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
I think the change is connected with this. --Vahag (talk) 09:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Icon of "Language settings" at the right, click on it
Oh, yes. Dijan, go to "Language settengs" > "Display" > "Fonts" tab, and select "System font" at "Select font for فارسی" option. If there's not such option, go to the "Language" tab and select "فارسی" and go back to "Fonts" tab. --Z 10:56, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks guys! I was not aware of this setting! --Dijan (talk) 19:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

γεια σου[edit]

Happy election day, pal. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks man! --Z 08:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

A question about an Arabic verb ارتد[edit]


I have a question about an Arabic verb.

In the sentence - ارتدت الفتيات ملابسهن بسرعة why is ارتد used? I can't find the meaning in the dictionary that matches "The girls got dressed quickly" (from a bilingual Arabic-English book). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:05, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Despite what it looks like, it's not from the root ر د د ‎(r-d-d), but ر د ي ‎(r-d-y), which is related to dressing. It's in إفتعال ‎(ʾiftiʿāl) form, and since the root contains y, it forms muʿtall (معتل) verbs which follow some complex rules: إرتدى ‎(ʾirtadā) [instead of *ʾirtadaya] (past), يرتدي ‎(yartadī) [instead of *yartadiyu] (present), إرتداء ‎(ʾirtidāʾ) [instead of *ʾirtidāy] (verbal noun). And the form in the example sentence you mentioned: إرتدت ‎(ʾirtadat) [instead of *ʾirtadayat]. The ya in *ʾirtadayat is omitted per the rules for mu'tall verbs. Thus, the verb is actually إرتدى ‎(ʾirtadā), not إرتد ‎(ʾirtadda). --Z 12:46, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, Z. It was driving me insane. BTW, we have an entry ارتدى ‎(irtadā) without a hamza (since the alif is elidable here. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


Is this equivalent to watching all Persian entries? --Vahag (talk) 12:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

(If I understand you correctly) yes, I'll watch them. If you mean does the link checks for all Persian entries, almost yes (except those which don't use standard fa templates such as fa-noun, etc.) --Z 13:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Cool. We used to be able to watch all changes in a given language, even changes in translation tables, here. The site was run by User:Visviva, but it has stopped working. --Vahag (talk) 08:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

āp-aka, billaur[edit]

Hi! Regarding the Middle Persian entry 𐭠𐭯 ‎(āp) - is there a derivation attested āp-aka meaning "water-like"? It would be the etymon of Persian آبگینه ‎(ābgīna, glass) and Old Armenian ապակի ‎(apaki, glass), and also needed in the etymology of Latin vitrum as an illustration of semantic shift "water-like" > "glass".

Also, there is supposed to exist Persian and Arabic words billaur meaning "quartz", both borrowings preserving the original meaning of Old South Indian word veḷuriya which subsequently changed its meaning to"beryl" everywhere else. It is needed in the Sanskrit entry वैडूर्य ‎(vaiḍūrya). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

apak/apaka (and similar forms) are not attested. Actually ap-aka can't be a Pahlavi word; it has a final vowel (which are either omitted in Middle Iranian or, in Middle Persian in particular, for certain groups of words, a k/g consonant is added at the end). -aka is an Old Persian suffix (equivalent to Middle Persian -ak/ag), so I guess your source meant the word is from Old Iranian *apaka. New Persian آبگینه ‎(ābgīna, glass) is from Middle Persian ʾp̄ḵynk' ‎(ābgēnag (late MPers. pron.), crystal, glass) (per MacKenzie), āb ("water") + -gēn (forms adj. of quality) + -ag (forms noun from adj.). *āpakēnak is mentioned in sources as the early Pahlavi form. The Armenian apaki is from Old Iranian I guess, otherwise it must be from early Middle Iranian *āpakēn ("water-like", adj.; Sogdian ʾʾpkyn is attested BTW), which doesn't look probable... or maybe from a Middle Iranian *apak, I'm just not sure why we have a final -i there
The Persian word is بلور ‎(bilūr, bulūr) (< Middle Persian bylwl ‎(bēlūr)) and the Arabic one is also بلور ‎(billaur), all mean "(white) crystal". See also [5] --Z 20:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Too bad we don't have an attestation because Old Iranian word has many descendants! --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


You seem to be the hottest on this, so I'm asking you. A fro-utilities would be useful for generating inflected forms in headword line template and conjugation/declension tables.

For example for plurals of nouns - there are no hard-and-fast rules so you would need to be able to override the default at times, but a final l, f or p disappears before an s, cop plural cos, nerf plural ners, col plural cos. A final s, x or z means invariable (tapiz plural tapiz and so on). -al and -el are a little different: -el becomes -és instead of -es (chief plural chiés and -al has at least three plurals; -als, -ax and -aus (cheval; chevals, chevax, chevaus).

Also I'd like the same sorting invocation as Module:fr-utilities. I don't really have time to go into detail now, if you could make a start hopefully I can either add things to it or get some help.

Thank you, Mglovesfun (talk) 11:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I created pluralize() which returns a list of plurals. Irregular ones should be handled outside of this function. For headword line, the rest is easy to do, do you want to have a fro-noun or fro-headword module? --Z 12:54, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Well if {{fro-noun}}, {{fro-decl-adj}} and {{fro-decl-noun}} called this, it would almost render specifying parameters obsolete. It would also need a feminine () function, that words ending in -e have a feminine in -e, -é to -ee, -if to -ive. The newly created pansif shows how awkward fro-decl-adj is to use without Lua. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Wait, shouldn't oblique plural, nominative singular, nominative plural be removed from headword line? They are already in decl table. --Z 12:13, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
{{fro-decl-noun}} is only used for nouns with a masculine and a feminine form, so not one for cheval because it's always masculine. We could change this if we wanted to, but as far as I know, we don't, for the reason you just gave. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Does it do default feminines and plurals (-e and -s respectively) and finally that words ending in -e have the same masculine and feminine forms? I think that's it, anything else I will ask again or hopefully just do it myself. And finally what invoke syntax do I use? {{#invoke:fro-utilities|plural}}? Mglovesfun (talk) 12:43, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes. To invoke pluralize(), use {{#invoke:fro-utilities|pluralize|word|n}}, where n is 1, 2, or 3, the three plurals that may be exist. To invoke feminine(), use {{#invoke:fro-utilities|feminine|word}}, --Z 13:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Have found just one bug; the first plural it gives of cheval is chevas and it should be chevals. This must be because it's using l to s rule. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Fixed now I think. --Z 13:24, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I might wait for {{l/beta}} to become live before incorporating this into any templates. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Template:l/beta currently works fine, and I don't think anyone will oppose with the update, so I think there's no reason to hesitate to edit Template:l. --Z 13:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking specifically of the isValidPageName stuff which I will be able to remove. Also, how do I include multiple plurals only when there are some (that is, more than one)? I was thinking of {{#if:{{#invoke:fro-utilities|pluralize|{{PAGENAME}}|2}}|{{#invoke:fro-utilities|pluralize|{{PAGENAME}}|2}}}}. Is there a better way of doing it? Mglovesfun (talk) 13:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Template:isValidPageName will become obsolete by l/beta.
The better way is using Lua to create those headword lines and declension table, let me see if I can do that. --Z 13:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I've had a go and failed hard. Anyone want to have a go at this, feel free. Otherwise the current system works fine but requires manual input of plurals/nominative singulars other than PAGENAME + s. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
I put the Lu-ized fro-noun in User:ZxxZxxZ/sandbox (the only difference is that it mentions all plural forms, try {{User:ZxxZxxZ/sandbox|m}} in the entry cheval) and the Lua-ized fro-decl-noun in User:ZxxZxxZ/sandbox2. Currently the forms in the Lua-ized decl table can not be overridden; are they always correct? --Z 19:12, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


Shouldn't the parameters be: |1=*{{{1}}}|2={{#if:{{{2|}}}|*{{{2}}}}}? Also, what happens if the first parameter has * but the second doesn't? —CodeCat 20:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean shouldn't they be |2=*{{{2}}}|3={{#if:{{{3|}}}|*{{{3}}}}}? Target title and alt parameter don't affect each other, so the link will be still to the appendix, and the alt will be unchanged, so if the alt doesn't have "*", no "*" will be displayed. --Z 20:28, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
After my latest change the template must work correctly in all cases that have used lr so far. --Z 20:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I see now. I forgot that the first parameter is the language code, and hadn't realised you forgot the alt. —CodeCat 20:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


Hi there, I just found there are چايدان and چایدان, what is the difference between them? --Hahahaha哈 (talk) 09:54, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, the Persian one uses ی (the character is also used in Urdu and several other alphabets, for /j/ and /iː/), while the Uyghur one uses ي ‎(y) (/j/; also used in Arabic language and several others, for /j/ and /iː/). --Z 10:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind explanation. Thanks. --Hahahaha哈 (talk) 09:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


I couldn't help but noticing you mentioning Arabic verbs - I was wondering, do you speak fluent or intermediate Arabic? Porokello (talk) 04:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi, not fluent, probably intermediate (Classical Arabic particularly). --Z 04:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
How would you describe Arabic verb conjugation? Also, on a level of difficulty? Porokello (talk) 04:25, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
You can read some info here: Appendix:Arabic verbs, click on blue links and see conjugation tables, for example كتب (kátaba) - to write. Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:06, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Conjugation table in the Arabic module[edit]


I already got stuck a bit. Only added the beginning but I get lost in the code of the template. Can you put the code of Template:ar-conj-head into Module:ar-verb's "make_table" function? Assume that all parameters are there (no if's). The only optional thing should probably be passive forms (missing for intransitive verbs).

{{l|ar|{{{ap}}}|{{{ap-wv}}}}} ({{{ap-tr}}}) should be replaced with

ap (ap)|ap_wv (ap_tr)

--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:22, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

That's actually the last part that we should try to do, because that depends on how we want to hold data. I think we should have a "forms" table (containing vocalized forms) and a separate table, "forms_tr" for transliterations, and a function that takes these and returns a full link to the term. --Z 06:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The final format can always be tweaked but we need a table to start playing, then it'll become easier. For removing vocalisation, remove_diacritics function in Module:ar-common can be used - I copied this functionality from the Russian module. For translit, we could use a method to map Roman letters and Arabic or something. Need to check how Dick_Laurent used Template:ar-xlit in the verb conjugation templates. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I added the table. remove_diacritics is actually not needed, Module:links can do that (see Template:l/beta) which is used in ar-common.links(). We can't map letters, for example hamzah may be ؤ، ئ etc. which can't be represented in Latin. --Z 07:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I added a table for diacritics, but for letters we can add them directly:
form["..."] = "تَ" .. l1 .. dia.a .. l2 .. .. dia.a .. l3 .. dia.a -- تَفَعَّلَ
(let's continue this discussion at Module talk:ar-verb) --Z 07:47, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Module and code questions[edit]


I've answered your questions and I have some urgent questions too - I'd like to go back a step. Please answer when you can. Meanwhile, I might work on a copy of a module. My original design (CodeCat's idea in the Russian module) may prove to be more efficient for a big number of conjugations we'll have to make, will save on some repetitive work. I may have misunderstood your ideas too, so waiting for your reply. Check this Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2013/June#Lua_-_processing_two_arrays_simultaneously_with_a_for-loop too. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

{{etyl:MIr.}}, {{etyl:OIr.}}[edit]

I always wanted to create such etymology-only templates. But I get script errors at Category:Old Armenian terms derived from Middle Iranian. Category:Old Armenian terms derived from Vulgar Latin is fine, which means you need to create some additional supporting stuff for these new templates. --Vahag (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The error occurs because the templates don't have a /family subtemplate. However, we already have codes for these languages, "pal" and "peo", so these codes are not needed. —CodeCat 20:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
"Pal" and "peo" are Middle Persian and Old Persian. Middle Iranian is a language family, which includes Middle Persian, Parthian, Sogdian and others. ISO has no code for this language family, we should make up one. --Vahag (talk) 20:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
In that case, they should be in Module:families. But how could they be families? I mean, if Old Iranian is a family then Middle Iranian is the same family because it contains the same languages, right? —CodeCat 20:40, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I shouldn't have called them language families, I was wrong. Middle Iranian and Old Iranian are groups of Iranian languages, divided by chronological criteria. --Vahag (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think we have any other kinds of groups like that anywhere on Wiktionary. Medieval Latin and such are still single languages, and everything else is an actual genetic family. So we don't really have any established practice for handling such cases, or a consensus on whether or not we even should. So it would probably be good to discuss it on the BP. —CodeCat 20:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I agree. May be Z will start one when he wakes up. --Vahag (talk) 06:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Why not defining "Middle Iranian" and "Old Iranian" as alternative names for "ira" in Module:families, so that these pages would be categorized under "... terms derived from Iranian languages"? (it was what I intended to do when I created the templates) --Z 07:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
What is the purpose of their existence then? You could just write "from Middle {{etyl|ira|en}}". --Vahag (talk) 08:09, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
I created that mainly for the wikilink that it creates which is not possible to do in that way ([[Middle Lua error in Module:etymology_language/templates at line 60: The language code "xx" is not valid.]]). --Z 08:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
I changed my mind, I think these categories are useful. I'll start a discussion on this at BP. --Z 10:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Classical Persian pronunciation[edit]

Can you add Classical Persian pronunciation to افیون? I suspect it may be more suitable as an etymon for ափիոն ‎(apʿion), if it was pronounced with an -i-, unlike Arabic أفيون ‎(ʾafyūn). Also, what do you think about changing Wiktionary:Persian transliteration to reflect Classical pronunciation and about transliterating long vowels with a macron, i.e. ā instead of â, like we do for Middle and Old Iranian languages? --Vahag (talk) 14:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I prefer a transliteration system based on Classical Persian, but it will make editing harder for those who are only familiar with Western Persian, who are the majority (includes even most of Persian-speaking users), so...
Btw, isn't it more probable that the Middle Armenian լովիաս is borrowed directly from Ancient Greek? (Based on the region it was spoken, and the late pronunciation of λοβια, /lovia/) --Z 15:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Unlikely. Middle Armenian լովիաս ‎(lovias) is attested in the works of w:Mkhitar Gosh, who was from Gandzak, an Iranized city, the bithplace of Nizami. Besides, λοβια meant “lobules”, not “beans”. The latter sense developed in Aramaic [script needed] ‎(lūbiyā), Classical Syriac ܠܘܒܝܐ ‎(lūbyā), whence Persian was borrowed, according to HAB. --Vahag (talk) 07:48, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Oh. Sad that I can't read Acharean's work, looks to be a very good source for etymology-related stuff. --Z 08:10, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Autotranslit in the Arabic verb module[edit]

Hi Z.,

I can't figure out what causes the problem with the automatic transliteration. Could you have a look, please?

This line:

forms[key] = "<span lang=\"ar\" class=\"Arab\">[[" .. com.remove_diacritics(form) .. "#Arabic|" .. form .. "]]</span><br/><span style=\"color: #888\">" .. .. "</span>"

Returns an error: "Lua error in Module:ar-verb at line 422: attempt to call field 'tr' (a nil value)."

I'd like to keep switching between automatic and manual transliteration in development. Two lines above is the manual one (it works fine if you comment out the automatic and uncomment the manual). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, fixed. --Z 07:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

l error[edit]

Template:l#Examples seems to have a script error. Any idea what's causing it, and if it's a major enough issue that I should revert the change to {{l}}? --Yair rand (talk) 06:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for updating the template. --Z 06:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't the autotranslit appear now? It doesn't for hy. --Vahag (talk) 08:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

You should add the module to the translit_modules table in Module:utilities (you may also add the language to override_manual_translit in Module:links if you want). --Z 08:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Now we have duplicate transliterations, as in ծառա, because long time ago I used the format {{l|hy|string}} (string) in a lot of entries when {{l}} did not yet support tr=. I'll have to fix those one by one :( --Vahag (talk) 08:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
That can (and should) be done by a bot, I'll probably do that in future. --Z 09:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
If you do, please be careful with cases such as in the Alternative forms section of եղբայր ‎(ełbayr); those are not transliterations and should be kept. --Vahag (talk) 09:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

If I use wikilinks in the input, the transliterations are wikilinked as well. See here. --Vahag (talk) 11:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Since some users also incorrectly wikilink transliterations, the best solution is removing wikilinks from Module:utilities, this change can do this. --Z 11:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
It works, thanks. By the way, you deserve to make the edits to your code at {{l}} yourself. Would you agree to become an admin? I am willing to nominate you. --Vahag (talk) 11:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, yes I accept. --Z 12:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


Original Barnstar Hires.png Barnstar
For your excellent work on Module:links and associated modules, as well as your superb Lua work in general, I award you this barnstar. Well done! --Yair rand (talk) 07:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks man! --Z 07:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Script error on Template:list:times of day/sla-pro[edit]

It seems that combining raw links with reconstructed terms doesn't quite work as it should. Could you have a look? —CodeCat 13:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't the phrase in output be "*vermę *dьnь"? It works if you write [[*vermę]] [[*dьnь]] (it also works with [[*vermę|vermę]] [[*dьnь]], but strangely returns error for [[*vermę]] [[*dьnь|dьnь]]) --Z 13:44, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
It is one phrase, so it should only output a single *, not one for each word. {{lx}} and {{lr}} both have/had a parameter noa=1 that removed the * from the displayed form, exactly for cases like this. The old version of the list template called {{lr}} twice: once for *vermę and again for *dьnь|dьne, but the second call was with noa=1 so the * was suppressed, and the end result would appear as *vermę dьne. —CodeCat 13:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
So why not using l twice as well: {{l|sla-pro|*vermę}} {{l|sla-pro|*dьnь|dьnь}} -> *vermę dьnь. --Z 13:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
I suppose that works for now, but it seems a bit hackish considering that it works for non-reconstructed terms just fine. A fix would still be appreciated... —CodeCat 14:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Also, it appears that {{l|sla-pro|[[*vermę]] [[*dьnь|*dьne]]}} fails as well, despite having *'s everywhere... —CodeCat 14:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Sure, will take a look at the code later (have to go now). --Z 14:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Fixed, the new code is here. --Z 17:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, but this still fails: *[[vermę]] [[dьnь|dьne]]. I'm not sure how the module currently determines whether a term is reconstructed, but it seems to me that it should just look for the * as the first character in the whole text. If someone writes [[*vermę]] [[dьnь]], what does that even mean? Does that mean treat the first word as reconstructed but not the second? I suppose that might be useful for languages that also have attested terms, but still. —CodeCat 18:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Maybe the following heuristic can be applied: If the whole text begins with *, acts as though each link individually also starts with *. This should happen whether the links themselves also have * or not, so *[[vermę]] [[dьnь|dьne]], *[[*vermę|vermę]] [[dьnь|dьne]] and *[[*vermę|vermę]] [[*dьnь|dьne]] are all equivalent. If the text does not begin with * but some of the links do, treat only the links with * as reconstructed. —CodeCat 18:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
The current strategy used in the module is that it takes target pages' titles, which can be in three forms -- "<target_page>" (only one), "[[<target_page>]]", and [[<target_page>|...]] -- and pass it to a function which performs operations on the title (turning it as the subpage of appendix, removing punctuation, etc.) This means linking-related informations for each linked element are fetched from this string (i.e. <target_page>), and on the other hand output-related stuff (such as the class that should be used to show the word) are taken from the link title or alt text. I've thought a lot about different ways of handling links, and I believe this logic and the algorithm used is the best. We cannot apply the rule you suggested unless by complete rewriting of this strategy. So the heuristic itself needs another heuristic, :) and the easiest workaround is adding an "if" at the beginning of language_link() which would check if there is any "*" at the beginning of the text and then add "*" at the beginning of each page title, "[[(here)<page title>", and then the output will be in a way as if we have already put those "*"s (quite hackish, I know) --Z 19:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
But putting a * in front of the whole text should not actually change the display of the links. So adding * to [[vermę]] [[dьnь]] should turn it into *[[*vermę|vermę]] [[*dьnь|dьnь]]. That is, the * is displayed before any of the links, the links are actually linked as if they each had their own *, but they are displayed without it. Would it be hard to do that? —CodeCat 19:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Here you go (tests), I'm neutral toward this change though, we can explicitly mark every link with "*" (and then use alt to remove it), it's a relatively rare case, isn't it? Is it worth it to complicate the code for it? --Z 19:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Template talk:l#broken[edit]

There are some problems with removal of diacritics that were a bit unforeseen. Can you help out? —CodeCat 20:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Replied ("him" btw) --Z 20:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Script errors on alefriz and ده[edit]

It looks like the template still fails on certain cases when the first parameter is missing... —CodeCat 12:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, fixed. --Z 13:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Admin vote[edit]

Please formally accept the nomination at Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2013-07/User:ZxxZxxZ for admin. --Vahag (talk) 12:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

So far so good, the next step is desysop-ing Yair rand, msh210, and Ruakh. (hey why did you mention the nationality? I hope people won't notice the conspire) --Z 12:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 :D By the way, I almost got desysopped for such jokes (Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2012-09/User:Vahagn Petrosyan for de-sysop). --Vahag (talk) 12:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Bot to replace some of the links[edit]

Once these categories "settle" a bit, I will run a bot to replace all cases of links within a script template (like {{Arab|[[something]]}}) with {{l}}. So you don't need to fix them. —CodeCat 19:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for letting me know. --Z 19:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Middle Persian[edit]

gwhl prompted me to ask. Should we make Latin transliterations the main entries or the Inscriptional Pahlavi script versions? If the former, we need a strict transliteration guideline. --Vahag (talk) 21:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Since not every word is attested in Inscriptional Pahlavi (Phli), we can't create entries only in Phli. So far, I only created Pahlavi entries for words that are attested in Inscriptional Pahlavi/Parthian, and waited for Book Pahlavi (Phlv, the most important and widely used one) to be added to Unicode, but I realized later that it won't happen in the foreseeable future for some reason, so I started to add entries in Latin for now (letter-by-letter transliteration; we do this for example for Egyptian language as well).
I created WT:PAL TR, it's still incomplete (a "Notes" column is needed, also I didn't include corrupt forms of combined letters, numerals, etc.) but I think it's enough for now. --Z 12:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
OK, as long as the transliteration is consistent, we can have Latin-script entries. They are good for listing descendants. --Vahag (talk) 19:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Problems with Template:recons[edit]

I noticed that this template is not italicising. If I expand {{recons|test|lang=en}} then I notice the module adds the "mention-Latn" CSS class. This was recently removed from {{Latn}}, so the module is apparently bypassing the script templates and not using them. —CodeCat 21:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. --Z 06:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Another problem: {{recons||gʰebʰ-|lang=ine-pro}} displays nothing at all. —CodeCat 15:19, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for reporting it. --Z 15:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

recons and VL.[edit]

I have a bot that fixes VL. links, so you don't need to. Just so you know. —CodeCat 18:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Great. --Z 18:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


Hey Z,

Do you think it would be a good idea for us to separate Kurdish into Kurmanji and Sorani? I would like to add some Sorani content and it's seems a quite a bit different, grammatically and vocabulary-wise, from Kurmanji. I'd like your opinion on this. --Dijan (talk) 19:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, yes I think we should separate them. --Z 19:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
You should check with a native speaker first, try User:George Animal. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the two dialects, there are enough differences between them that make us to separate them (for example, conjugations are different and we need separate sets of templates). --Z 20:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia says a bit more at w:Kurdish language#Kurmanji Kurdish versus Sorani Kurdish and Kermanshahi Kurdish. The quotation from Kreyenbroek says that they are as different as English and German, and that there are significant grammatical differences. —CodeCat 21:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

ارغوان and ܐܪܓܘܢܐ[edit]

Hey Z, any relation? --334a (talk) 03:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi! Yes, we have a Wanderwort, I expanded the Persian entry, see also the Akkadian entry created by Ivan. --Z 18:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Another small issue with l[edit]

Appendix:Avestan alphabet. When the parameter contains a HTML character reference, it thinks it's a section name? Or something? Also, please see Module talk:languages, something there needs your input. —CodeCat 21:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but I think we should simply put the characters themselves. --Z 11:22, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Maybe, but as long as some entries use the template this way, we need to support it. Do you remember how I was cautious about making sure that the module would be backwards compatible with the template? —CodeCat 11:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but I think if some entries use the template this way, we just need to fix the entries. Would you add something like if mw.ustring.match(text, '&#.*?;') then text = text .. "[[category:whatever]]" end somewhere in the module? --Z 11:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That can work, but this may not be a change everyone agrees with. Some people may like being able to add HTML entities when it suits them, so it is probably better to ask first. —CodeCat 11:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
But I still believe we should avoid using HTML character references, they only cause problems. Even by replacing numeric character references with their corresponding characters, we may still have named references (imagine having &acute; or &zwnj; in the given text). --Z 20:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

and a Lua request[edit]

Swahili templates are a total mess around here, but since I'm already planning on rewriting {{sw-noun}} from scratch, I was wondering if you (or anyone else who sees this first) could make Module:sw-utilities. All I want (for now, at least ;) is it can guess noun plurals pretty accurately if you feed it with what class the noun is in; I think it'll be easier to have the rest of the machinery in the template namespace. Just covering the most common cases, that means: the output should be the input minus the leftmost substring if that substring is m, k, or ji (otherwise just spit out the input again). Thank you! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done(?) {{#invoke:sw-utilities|plural|mtoto}} -> --Z 11:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that quite covers it, at least if Swahili is anything like Zulu. In Zulu, the plural class is usually predictable (add or subtract 1) but sometimes it isn't. A module to create a plural for Zulu would need to be supplied with two numbers: the singular class and the plural class. The module would then remove the singular prefix and add the plural prefix according to the class numbers given. Swahili probably needs something similar. —CodeCat 11:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
So the prefix / singular class should be provided, I think it works more safely now: {{#invoke:sw-utilities|plural|mtoto|m}} -> toto, {{#invoke:sw-utilities|plural|jitoto|ji}} -> toto; the template will add the plural prefix then. --Z 11:58, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
The prefix can change depending on the shape of the word it is attached to, and the module would probably need to decide which variety to use, so you can't really pass the prefix itself as the parameter. See w:Swahili language#Noun classes. —CodeCat 12:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
CodeCat, complicating the module is not the way to go. The module shouldn't be able to predict which paradigm to follow. The way it is now looks perfect. (Oh, and Swahili is so irregular that this will only cover the majority of cases, but the flexibility will help a lot.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood. That's not what I am suggesting. Rather, I'm saying that the parameters should be numbers rather than the prefixes themselves, because the template calling the module may not necessarily know which prefix is actually present on the word. So I think that the parameters should be two numbers rather than two prefixes: the singular class (which tells the module which prefix to look for and remove), and the plural class (which prefix to add back on). This is how I intend to do it for Zulu, and {{zu-noun}} already works this way too. —CodeCat 16:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, the trend in Swahili on Wiktionary (and I intend to further this goal) is to do away with the class numbers, which are basically only academic in their use, and use the names of classes based on their prefixes (like m-wa class), which should make more sense to anyone who speaks Swahili. The template will always know the prefix, by a combination of the fact that it will be given the corresponding plural class as a parameter, and by the fact that we can use padleft. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I see. For Zulu and most other Bantu languages the numbers are still very much the norm. —CodeCat 18:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
PS: Where did we put the function that calculates the length of a string? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
mw.ustring.len(string) --Z 18:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I just thought we had some central place to put it, instead of replicating it for each language's utility module. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)