Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit


February 2017

Table Templates concerning Playing Card Suits[edit]

Could "Template:table:suits" be renamed to "Template:table:French suits"? It's just so it could be distinguished from "Template:table:Spanish suits", which I believe ought to be renamed to "Template:table:Latin suits" per Pagat. (Speaking of table templates, there ought to be two table templates named as follows: "Template:table:German suits" and "Template:table:Swiss suits".) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 18:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


Template:gloss currently produces the following output: (this is an example). Does anyone have an objection to enclosing the gloss in quotation marks [(“this is an example”)] so that it matches other glosses generated by templates such as {{compound}} and {{m}}? (@IvanScrooge98.) —This unsigned comment was added by Smuconlaw (talkcontribs) at 18:24, 3 February 2017‎.

@Smuconlaw: Yes, I object, because {{gloss}} is most often used to provide a disambiguator rather than a true gloss. For example, the definition of njetopyŕ is given as "[[bat]] {{gloss|small flying mammal}}", but bat doesn't actually mean "small flying mammal". Instead, the {{gloss}} tag is there merely to indicate which sense of bat is being referred to. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:19, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Is that different from a "true gloss"? I wouldn't have thought that the placement of any gloss within quotation marks (as templates like {{m}} do) implies that the gloss is exhaustive. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:29, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I guess the crucial difference is that {{gloss}} is usually used after English words, while the t= parameter of templates like {{m}} is usually used after non-English words. In "{{m|dsb|njetopyŕ|t=bat}}", ‘bat’ is a full definition, a full translation, of the dsb word, while in "[[bat]] {{gloss|small flying mammal}}", ‘small flying mammal’ (and even more so in "[[bat]] {{gloss|animal}}"), the so-called gloss is really just providing enough info so the reader knows we're not talking about a baseball or cricket bat. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:37, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:IPA letters gives spurious error in preview[edit]

Template:IPA letters seems to give an "invalid IPA character" error in preview mode, though the saved page works fine. I encountered this when editing BBC. Equinox 12:21, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

{{IPA letters}} uses {{IPA}}, which uses Module:IPA which has a function that finds invalid IPA characters, using the list of valid characters in Module:IPA/data/symbols. I recently added a preview-only message that lists the invalid characters. Till now, the entry would simply be tracked with Module:debug. I'm not sure why the space is being considered an invalid character, because space is in the list of valid characters. Oh, it's because the template uses the HTML entity. I've added a rule to remove the HTML entity, so now the preview message no longer appears. — Eru·tuon 20:16, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
It's now giving an error message for g - plain ordinary English g typed on a keyboard. I know there's a preferred IPA glyph for g, but ordinary typed g should translate into it automatically. -- 10:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
The ordinary g has always given an "invalid IPA character" message, and it should, because it shouldn't be used in IPA transcriptions. It should be changed to ɡ wherever encountered inside {{IPA}} or {{IPAchar}} or {{rhymes}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:24, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
The module is showing the position of the nonstandard characters instead of showing the characters themselves (see geliştir in preview mode). The error is on lines 137 and 138, result should be replaced with symbol. Redboywild (talk) 12:20, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
At this point, it's showing both the position and the characters themselves. But I'm about to fix geliştir. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
@Redboywild: Oops. You're right. I've gone and implemented your recommendation. — Eru·tuon 20:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the solution was somewhat more complicated. But now it works. @Angr, the obsolete or nonstandard characters part of the error message was showing the position, while the invalid symbols error message was showing the characters. Now both show the characters. — Eru·tuon 20:41, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

superhabitable planet[edit]

How does this term get into the category Category:English 7-syllable words? It isn't. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:30, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I imagine it has something to do with the invalid IPA the creator provided. DTLHS (talk) 18:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
The IPA has been fixed by Angr. Erutuon has explained to me that syllables like /bl/ and /kl/ have to be indicated like /bl̩/ and /kl̩/ to be counted as a distinct syllable. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Arabic root cats[edit]

I've made {{ar-root}} automatically categorize entries in categories for root, such as Category:Arabic terms belonging to the root ك ت ب. Now there are lots of redlinked categories in Arabic entries.

Is there a bot that could automatically create the categories? They simply need to have {{ar-root cat}} or {{auto cat}} placed in them. — Eru·tuon 04:58, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Done. DTLHS (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


This German noun is a member of the category Category:German nouns with red links in their declension tables. Not true; the links are green. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:50, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

The links are green because of the entry creation tool. They're red links in the sense that there's no page there, I guess. — Eru·tuon 08:52, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

The “New title” text box in a renaming page disappears[edit]

I cannot easily rename pages probably because of JavaScript for years, only on English Wiktionary. I cannot see the “New title” text box after the renaming page is fully loaded. Why is that?… I always have to hit ESC at the right moment to see it. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:51, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Could you provide a screenshot? DTLHS (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
A screenshot of the Wiktionary move page, showing the invisibility of the namespace and title fields.
The same is happening to me. Here's a screenshot. — Eru·tuon 20:24, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I do not see that (tried Chrome, Edge). Maybe it's different for administrators? What does the HTML say? DTLHS (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
<div class="oo-ui-fieldLayout-body"><div class="oo-ui-fieldLayout-header"><span class="oo-ui-labelElement-label">New title:</span></div><div class="oo-ui-fieldLayout-field"><div id="wpNewTitle" aria-disabled="false" class="oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled mw-widget-complexTitleInputWidget" data-ooui="{&quot;_&quot;:&quot;mw.widgets.ComplexTitleInputWidget&quot;,&quot;namespace&quot;:{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;wpNewTitleNs&quot;,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;wpNewTitleNs&quot;,&quot;value&quot;:2,&quot;exclude&quot;:[-2,-1,2600]},&quot;title&quot;:{&quot;id&quot;:&quot;wpNewTitleMain&quot;,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;wpNewTitleMain&quot;,&quot;value&quot;:&quot;Erutuon\/sandbox2&quot;,&quot;suggestions&quot;:false}}"><input type="hidden" name="undefined" value="0"><div id="wpNewTitleMain" aria-disabled="false" class="oo-ui-widget oo-ui-widget-enabled oo-ui-inputWidget oo-ui-textInputWidget oo-ui-textInputWidget-type-text oo-ui-textInputWidget-php mw-widget-titleInputWidget"><span class="oo-ui-iconElement-icon"></span><span class="oo-ui-indicatorElement-indicator"></span></div></div></div></div>
Well, here's the HTML, I think, for the part that isn't showing. — Eru·tuon 21:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Any potentially interfering gadgets turned on? --Yair rand (talk) 07:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Doesn't happen for me. Tried disabling all third-party (non-wiki) settings like ad blockers, just in case? Equinox 09:46, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I’ve confirmed that it doesn’t happen when I turn off JavaScript. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:50, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Problem solved. Thank you all. I turned off “When moving pages, use the namespace-qualified title in the title box, and remove the separate namespace list” in my preferences and it works fine now. (@Erutuon) — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 13:43, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@TAKASUGI Shinji: Ahh, I had that gadget enabled as well. Now that I turned it off, the move page displays normally. — Eru·tuon 18:57, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Could someone please remove that gadget from the list of preferences until the bug is fixed? I don’t know where the list is. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:42, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I know there are lists of gadgets at Special:Gadgets and MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition, but not sure how gadgets get added to or removed from the list. — Eru·tuon 00:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Removed. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Anchor gadget[edit]

The anchor gadget (MediaWiki:Gadget-U2693.js) is useful, but could an admin add subst: to the templates so that I don't have to type that in? — Eru·tuon 19:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@Erutuon: What templates are you talking about? You're a template editor, so presumably you can fix them yourself. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:25, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Actually, it's a (JavaScript) gadget, and template editors don't have the right to edit them. See the link. — Eru·tuon 07:30, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh, that was confusing. What I mean is the gadget produces copyable template code ({{unsigned}}), but it doesn't include the subst: before the template names, so you have to do extra typing after copying the template code. 07:40, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Makes more sense, but I'm still confused. Why are you subst:ing these templates anyway? AFAIK, that's unnecessary. (Also, I find it annoying that template editors can't edit things other than templates — is it worth making a vote and filing a bug report?) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Oh, I was under the impression it had to be substituted. Apparently not, according to the template documentation. Perhaps substituting it is a Wikipedia custom. As to whether template editors should have the privilege of editing JavaScript gadgets – I for one don't have that much JavaScript knowledge, so I'm not sure either way. — Eru·tuon 10:38, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Languages using punctuation as characters (Nivkh transliteration)[edit]

I've tried writing a Nivkh transliteration module today, but I've come across a problem with its (single quote) character used to denote aspiration, the problem is that our modules (translit, headword) treat it as a word divider causing it to link the two parts of the word separately in headword lines and transliterating the word part by part. Normally this wouldn't cause problems, but in the case of Cyrillic e we need to differentiate between positions following a consonant and beginning a word, as one should be written e and the other je.

Take for an example к’еӄ, its transliteration ought to be k’eq, yet our current setup together with my module can only produce k’jeq.

Does anyone have an idea of how we could achieve this (or a reason for why a solution could be impossible)

Crom daba (talk) 20:26, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a long-running problem which needs a solution for many languages. Compare this diff (the problem can be solved with use of the head= parameter here, but it's still a terrible default for Hän). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:45, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes: don't use the curly apostrophe (U+2019) as a letter. Anytime something apostrophe-looking is used as a letter (in any language, not just Nivkh), we should be using ʼ U+02BC (MO­DI­FI­ER LET­TER APOSTROPHE). If you move к’еӄ to кʼеӄ, it should transliterate correctly. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:46, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
That's a bad solution. Why should we be using a character that people who actually write in the language don't use? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:49, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Because that's what it's there for. Cases like this are exactly why Unicode has two separate characters, one for the punctuation mark and one for the letter. It's not our problem if other people use the characters incorrectly; we should still use them correctly. We can leave hard redirects from the spellings using the wrong character. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:28, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
People who actually write in the language is a somewhat hypothetical category for Nivkh, I doubt that there's a standard, be it official or conventional, of how computer Nivkh should be encoded. If no one gives a better reason I'll go ahead and start moving pages. Crom daba (talk) 21:32, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, it works now, I've replaced all the apostrophes per Angr's suggestion (thanks), however that wasn't even the problem it was

text = mw.ustring.gsub(text, "([^Ѐ-ӿ])Е","%1Je")

text = mw.ustring.gsub(text, "([^Ѐ-ӿ])е","%1je")

the function of which I don't understand. I've added

text = mw.ustring.gsub(text, "([ʼ’])Е","%1E")

text = mw.ustring.gsub(text, "([ʼ’])е","%1e")

before it and it works now for both apostrophes.

Crom daba (talk) 23:38, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

JavaScript error on search pages[edit]

Hello, this error happens on search pages:

TypeError: mainNode is undefined in MediaWiki:SpecialSearch.js

Looks like the search box has been redesigned recently. The script should be updated, and additional checks added to avoid breakage in case of future DOM changes.

Regards, Od1n (talk) 13:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Here is a fixed version of the script : User:Od1n/MediaWiki:SpecialSearch.js (history). Would an admin deploy it, please? Od1n (talk) 14:28, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. --Yair rand (talk) 19:30, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Deprecated ISO 639-3 codes[edit]

It seems that this was missed this year. The following codes have been deprecated by SIL and need to be removed from our language modules:

  • Rennellese Sign Language [rsi]
  • Shinabo [snh]
  • Rien [rie]
  • Lua' [prb]
  • Pu Ko [puk]

As well, there have been several new languages; I'll leave it to interested people to find these out and add them if there's demand. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 15:38, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

What have these been replaced by? Do you have a link? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:47, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
They were deleted outright; these languages do not exist. The summary for 2016's changes is here: http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2016_Summary.pdf -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 16:52, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't believe any of these have any current use in Wiktionary, so they can simply be deleted without any cleanup needed. DTLHS (talk) 16:56, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
We should first see if there's any merit to that though. We may have a different opinion than SIL. —CodeCat 17:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Looking at the first one, that was deleted because it's just a bunch of private signs developed by one deaf person that never managed to develop a grammar structure or a sufficient vocabulary to actually form a language on its own merit. The other four languages could not be discovered by researchers in their respecitve region and are thought to be spurious. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 17:09, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
After reading the reasons for deprecation for all the languages mentioned, I've deleted all the codes from the language modules. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Special:Nuke ("mass delete") is no longer working[edit]

It now has an additional form prompting for the user name, etc. However, the resulting list contains new entries from all users, not just the one I typed in the name box. Equinox 13:06, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

phab:T156949. --Yair rand (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Undo tweaking of Vector top section[edit]

Hello, please undo this change (so basically the Vector.css can be blanked).

Principle of least astonishment (aka. wtf muscle memory I clicked at the wrong place), the top section should not be different from all the other wikis…

Od1n (talk) 15:24, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't think reverting this would be a good idea. Losing the definitions below the fold is a real issue, and we shouldn't waste critical screen space just to keep consistency with other projects. --Yair rand (talk) 19:26, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
1em doesn't change much about the "above the fold" (and the TOC eats all the space, so…). But current tweaks make that top section really narrow.
If you don't want to undo the whole thing, how about changing the offset from 1em to 0.5em? We still gain a bit of space, and it really makes the top section less messy.
Od1n (talk) 19:52, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Porting and debugging of module[edit]

Hi, I'm trying to port the Module:character info and {{Template:character info/new}} to Swedish Wiktionary (sv:Modul:teckeninfo, sv:Mall:teckeninfo). And have a few questions:

  1. Is it possible to invoke a module from another language Wiktionary? It would be great to automatically get all the updates immediately propagated.
  2. Right now invoking the copied module results in a timeout (see sv:Modul:teckeninfo). Unfortunately I have no idea how to debug this. Any tips on how I can find the errors?

Have a nice day :) –dMoberg 08:42, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Moberg: Maybe check if the Swedish Wiktionary has the last version of Module:character info, Template:character info/new, Module:Unicode data and all its subpages, as well as Module:scripts and all its subpages, including Module:scripts/data.
I believe one Wiktionary can't use a module from another Wiktionary (I even tested a bit and failed), but it seems eventually we could move all character names and image links to wikidata:, which I believe can be accessed by other wikis. I don't know how to do that. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
We are missing all the subpages to Module:Unicode_data. How can I copy them? (It feels like loads of work duplication tho :( ) –dMoberg 17:22, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
@Moberg: Module:Unicode data currently has 69 subpages. At least the way the modules are currently implemented, I'm afraid someone really is going to have to copy all of them to other Wiktionaries to use them, like this: Module:Unicode data/images/000 to sv:Modul:Unicode data/images/000, and so on. I don't know if it's feasible to use a bot or AWB to copy these pages.
I agree that this feels like loads of work duplication. (especially as more and more Wiktionaries have to copy the modules, like the Thai Wiktionary already did: th:มอดูล:Unicode_data/images/001) Currently, it seems we didn't install Wikidata access on Wiktionary yet. I created Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/February#Proposal: Implementing Wikidata access to suggest installing it, which should make things easier in the future if accepted by the community. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I dont really feel like manually copying that amount of pages, with the risk of not getting it to work. I'm rooting for wikidata! :) –dMoberg 21:59, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Really you should never copy pages wholesale from another wiki, you should import them. That way the edit history is maintained as is required by the licenses. It also has the benefit of doing most of the work for you. - TheDaveRoss 22:05, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Import seems like a better alternative (although not needed for history keeping?) but still too cumbersome unless there is some way to import all subpages for a page (scripting?). Another problem is overwriting previously imported pages. I really hope this can be moved to wikidata as soon as possible. :) –dMoberg 19:25, 14 February 2017 (UTC)


Hi. I have founded Category:cs:Olomouc but it seems that a new label needs to be added to the template:topic cat. I would like to ask for help with this since I really have no idea how to do it. Thanks. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 12:08, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Are you sure this needs to be a topic category? Do you want something like Category:New_York_English ? Crom daba (talk) 12:17, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I was thinking about something like Category:en:London or Category:en:New York City. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 12:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Alright, but I don't think you should make it for a handful of entries.
You'll need to add it at Module:category_tree/topic_cat/data/Earth. Crom daba (talk) 14:01, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. I am planning to add more entries soon. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 16:38, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Fixing category-creation text to mention {{auto cat}}[edit]

@CodeCat CodeCat created {{auto cat}}, which is very handy but isn't mentioned currently in the text at the top of a new-category page. Instead there's a list of the older (non-auto) catboilers. Can someone point me to the relevant page where this text is held? I searched around in the MediaWiki namespace but couldn't find it. Benwing2 (talk) 19:33, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I believe you are looking for these pages:
--Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:21, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
@Daniel Carrero OK, thanks. I added {{auto cat}} to Template:categoryboiler. I'm still not sure where the text above it gets set, but I suppose it doesn't need changing. Benwing2 (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Finally, I've been meaning to do this for some time now. Crom daba (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

A new Labs Tool to visually explore etymological relationships extracted from the English Wiktionary[edit]

Hi all! I have developed a tool to visualize etymologies. Please check it out at tools.wmflabs.org/etytree. My work is funded by an IEG grant. Please leave your feedback on the interactive tool here. It will help improve it.

a screenshot of the graph for word coffee

It's is impressive how well automatic extraction of data works. This is because Etymology Sections are written using well defined standars. I would like to get some feedback about some difficulties I have encountered while extracting data and some ideas I have about new templates. I wrote some notes here. Please add your comment there if you have any.

Looking forward to your comments! Epantaleo (talk) 16:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

This is very interesting. I wonder if you have a list of etymologies that you found were impossible to parse? DTLHS (talk) 16:25, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
@DTLH: I don't have a list but from the visualizations you can clearly see that some of the sections are incorrectly parsed. Some of those mistakes are due to bugs in the code, others are due to imprecise etymological definitions. Consider also that while debugging I have corrected many etymology sections (see my contributions) and after those contributions I still have not updated the database. I still use a database extracted from the December 20, 2016 dump. Epantaleo (talk) 17:01, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
(answered also there in Meta) Awesome. Coincidentally and recently and unknowingly I have just tried to do that with GraphViz and Gephi, but introducing the data by myself. I just tried the uncreated en:wikt:Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/paw- (see What links here) < en:wikt:pavor (in order to get data, create the article and fill the gaps). My results are so alike... and you got what I sought so much. I'll try to have some time for more comments.
  • I'd suggest giving the option to choose different graph types (more linear).
  • And apply colours of distance from the lowest node (said knot?).
  • Do this cognates in boxes interrupt parsing? Do you process cognates? Can it find incoherences (two different nodes of the same language pointing into the same descendant)?
  • I also recently discovered template:etymtree]] and Template:findetym: can you feed them (there are less than 100 created)?
  • It could be used for Wikisaurus, as it is even more standardised. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:36, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


After I did this and this, does the categories Category:Latin defective first conjugation verbs and Category:Latin defective second conjugation verbs update to you with new entries? (this worked with Category:Latin defective fourth conjugation verbs) Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 12:47, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Works perfectly (46 and 37 pages included respectively): Twas a problem of caché memory. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:IPA reports invalid character on umzuzu[edit]

It says that ḿ is not a valid character, but note that this is a syllabic nasal; the word has four syllables, the second and fourth are high toned. Can this be fixed? —CodeCat 23:32, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

The module returns an error because composed letters with acute accents are, properly speaking, not correct IPA: a plain letter with a tone mark diacritic should be used instead. You can enter the tone mark diacritics by placing the X-SAMPA shortcuts (in this case, _H) into {{subst:x2i}}. Or maybe we could add a full set of acute-accented letters into the "valid" list in Module:IPA/data/symbols. But using the correct character is best. — Eru·tuon 23:42, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
I see that the "valid" list in Module:IPA/data/symbols already has a lot of pre-composed characters. So you can add m with acute to the list. — Eru·tuon 23:44, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Characters are input into Lua as precomposed characters, and are likewise converted to precomposed by the software when output. There are two functions, mw.ustring.toNFC and mw.ustring.toNFD which compose and decompose characters respectively. If the module has trouble handling precomposed diacritics, it should decompose them before doing any processing. —CodeCat 00:14, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
That would be true if the tone diacritics were the same as the plain diacritics, but they are not. m plus combining acute tone mark (0x341) is not converted to m with acute ( 0x1E3F). At least this seems to be true when I enter {{subst:x2ipachar|m_H}} (which yields ḿ): no error message is displayed. — Eru·tuon 00:29, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
The high tone mark is a different character from the plain acute (0x0301)? —CodeCat 00:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, and the low tone mark (0x340) is different from the combining grave (0x300). But now that I look, there are no distinct characters for the rest of the tonal diacritics. That's inconsistent. — Eru·tuon 00:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Ow, my head. Unicode, why are you so broken at times? —CodeCat 00:46, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:obsolete form of is broken[edit]

The parameter |nocap=1 doesn't function anymore. |nodot=1 does still work.
{{obsolete form of|term|lang=en|nocap=1|nodot=1}} becomes obsolete form of term with a capital O and not a non-capital o, and without a dot. -Wilhelm-231 (talk) 08:28, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I fixed it. It was because the text "obsolete form of" had italics (''Obsolete form of''), which prevented the lcfirst: and ucfirst: magic words from working. — Eru·tuon 23:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Warning: Other pages link to or transclude the page you are about to delete.[edit]

This message turns up when deleting an entry, but I've come to ignore it, because if it's listed on RFV, then there'll be a link to WT:RFV. Is it possible to prevent this warning from appearing when the only links to the page are on WT:RFV, WT:RFD, or WT:RFDO? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Ugly charboxes in mobile view[edit]

I'll leave this issue here in case someone's interested. After I was informed about it in my talk page, I was meaning to try to fix it but didn't do it yet.

The character boxes are very ugly when seen in a cell phone, and need some proper CSS formatting.

I'll leave a link to the asterisk entry in mobile view, as an example: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/*

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

By "ugly", I'm assuming you mean "of inconsistent widths"? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:41, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
That's right. Yes, thanks for summing it up. Plus I'd like to add "float: right" in all these boxes, because apparently we currently have to scroll past all the boxes to start seeing the actual entry. Maybe the appendix name (like "Basic Latin") could be smaller, too. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:45, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Mobile devices have very little width to work with, so floating things right won't go well for them. —CodeCat 21:59, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm curious, is there any way from the server side to distinguish between tablets (which have more width) versus phones (which are quite skinny)? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:18, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't know, but at least I see that we have a whole CSS page specific to mobile view: MediaWiki:Mobile.css. Wikipedia has one too: w:MediaWiki:Mobile.css. If hiding content is needed, the Wikipedia page suggests this: "Do not use display:none. Instead edit the template and markup the element you want to hide with the `nomobile` class." --Daniel Carrero (talk) 08:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
CSS is capable by itself of using different rules based on the width of the viewport. —suzukaze (tc) 08:29, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
What about making the tables collapsible, instead of making them float to the right? That would make them take up less vertical space, and require less scrolling. — Eru·tuon 22:39, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth it seems like the Mobile CSS is designed to disable "float" and "width". —suzukaze (tc) 05:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Template ux[edit]

The template {{ux}} requires to fill the translation parameter, which is sometimes not possible. May I ask for suggestions how to solve -e#Etymology 2? Thanks. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

@Jan.Kamenicek: For suffixes, you can use {{suffixusex}} instead of {{ux}}. See my recent edits to -e. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:02, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Left-to-right mark in Module:headword and Module:usex[edit]

I'm puzzled by the inclusion of a left-to-right mark (&lrm;) in the output of Module:headword and Module:usex. This is unnecessary, since text direction for right-to-left languages is specified in MediaWiki:Common.css. I removed the left-to-right mark from Module:headword (though the edit summary is misleading; Module:script utilities no longer adds text direction markers, because they are unnecessary). It is a small thing to be concerned with, but I will remove it from Module:usex if there isn't a good reason for it. — Eru·tuon 10:26, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Language-sensitive labeling[edit]

I've added the necessary code to Module:labels and Module:labels/data/regional to allow categories to be restricted to a set of languages. You simply add a list of language codes to the data table, and {{label}} will only add the category to those languages. I've tested it with the label "Koine" (the only one that currently has a "languages" field) and it works: {{label|grc|Koine}} adds a category, while {{label|en|Koine}} does not.

Unfortunately, this does not yet allow the same label to be used by different languages with different content. I can't think of a case where this would be needed, but it should be possible. — Eru·tuon 07:15, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay, an example in which different content for the same label would be useful: Doric, which should refer to Doric Scots when the language code is sco, and to Doric Greek when the language code is grc.

I am thinking that one way to have this feature would be to have a table of language codes, and under each language code, a list of labels associated with that language. If more than one language uses the label, one language's table would contain the label, while others would refer to it. For instance, the label "honorific" would have to be listed under either "zh" (Chinese), or "ja" (Japanese), or "ko" (Korean), or another language, and have the other languages refer to it. This idea would result in more complexity: there would be a table of non-language-specific labels, and another table of language-specific ones.

And I am not sure how the module could return an error if an editor tries to use a label in a language that does not allow it (for instance, using "honorific" in English). — Eru·tuon 00:46, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I suppose the answer is yet another table of labels with a list of languages in which they can be used: such a table would include a table indexed by "honorific" containing { ["zh"] = true, ["ja"] = true, ["ko"] = true }. — Eru·tuon 00:50, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

A table for "Doric" would contain ["grc"] = true, ["sco"] = true, even though the contents of the Ancient Greek and the Scots label would be different. — Eru·tuon 00:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

This sounds like a pretty bad idea. We really don't want to have to list everything for every language, because that would swiftly become unmanageable. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:05, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
@Μετάknowledge: It would be messy to have it all written out, but it could actually be fairly simple if we have functions that do most of the work. — Eru·tuon 01:19, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
But we don't want to have to list out all the languages that use honorifics. We would doubtlessly forget some, and we shouldn't have problems when someone eventually wants to add honorific terms in a new language and can't figure out why it's failing to work. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Okay, then that's a bad example. But the feature would definitely be useful for the label "Doric". — Eru·tuon 02:01, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Labels in Module:labels/data/subvarieties can now be made available by adding a language = "<code>" field. Without the language code, they will be ignored by Module:labels/data (which gathers up all the labels from the submodules). I'm going to move the Ancient Greek labels there. — Eru·tuon 03:22, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Could a sysop change the protection level of Module:labels/data/subvarieties to registered users? There's no longer a reason for protection, since it is functional and editors should begin adding or moving labels there. — Eru·tuon 20:13, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

@Erutuon: Yes check.svg Done. Please note that you still have label module errors left. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:42, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
@Μετάknowledge: Wow, the module errors really take a long time to clear up. They disappear once I preview the page. — Eru·tuon 21:45, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
However, I did break the label {{lb|_}}; it's now fixed. — Eru·tuon 22:10, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Can somebody please fix this new topic category?[edit]

Category:ko:Korean letter names. It has become difficult to add new topic cats. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:12, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

@Anatoli T.: What's wrong with the category as it currently is? — Eru·tuon 01:27, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: It's fixed, thank you. Not sure by who and what was done. I only changed the title - inserted a missing word. --01:31, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Documentation for "Template:projectlink/Wikipedia"[edit]

Would someone kindly create a documentation page for {{projectlink/Wikipedia}} (to which {{pedia}} redirects)? I cannot figure out from Module:wikipedia, which the template calls, what parameters the template takes. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:54, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Duplicate label in Module:labels/data[edit]

The label British spelling appears twice in the module, so that when {{lb|en|British spelling}} is used, the result is (British spelling) and not (British spelling). Could a sysop fix that by removing one of the two labels? — Automatik (talk) 14:34, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Moved the correct form of the label to Module:labels/data/subvarieties (which is now functional). — Eru·tuon 20:12, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Message at top of module pages[edit]

Hi, where does the message at top of module pages (with exisiting documentation page) come from? (See: Module:labels for example). I'm talking about the text that reads

"The following documentation is located at Module:labels/documentation. [edit]
Useful links: subpage list • transclusions • testcases"

I'm guessing it is a MediaWiki-page but I was only able to find MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-does-not-exist. –dMoberg 20:53, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

@Moberg: I went to Special:PrefixIndex/MediaWiki:Scribunto and then to MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header and Template:documentation subpage and Template:documentation. Maybe the last is the one that generates this text? It uses Module:documentation. — Eru·tuon 21:26, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: Unfortunately MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header does not show up at Module pages, at least not on Swedish Wiktionary. –dMoberg 21:42, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
@Moberg: MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header seems to be the content that shows up on documentation pages, including module documentation pages. Do you mean that the content in sv:MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header does not display on documentation pages on Swedish Wiktionary? — Eru·tuon 21:59, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: I found it, it should be this message: MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-show. Thanks for the help. –dMoberg 22:01, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
@Moberg: Oh yeah, there you go! And oops, I realize because MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-page-header is prefixed with Scribunto-, it's only for Module pages. Glad I could help, however little I know about the subject. — Eru·tuon 22:15, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Help adding new reference template[edit]


I'm sorry if this is not the best place to request such help. I am unfamiliar with adding new templates, and I would like to start doing so. At the moment I'd like to add a new reference template, specifically a Tahitian reference template. I understand that I could simply troubleshoot, and possibly find the solution after more time and research; however, I have limited time, and I would also like to learn how to do this correctly the first time -- so that I will know the best possible manner to go about this in the future.

Additional questions:

  • Is there a feature/set of features that allows for automating some actions, such as adding a definition for a particular language to an existing page? By this I mean automating the following steps:
  1. Navigating to the translations for the word, e.g. headache, and adding the term for a non-preexisting language.
  2. Then navigating to the term's page itself, hoa.
  3. Adding a new section, language specific category and any additional information.
  • What is the best way to cite sources for terms on articles? I see a Citations tab at the top of each article. Is there an easier/more productive way to add many words from a single source - in this case, a dictionary - without having to add the same source to the Citations tab of each term's article? To clarify, I mean both the article for a term containing the translation table, e.g. headache, and the page for the term itself, e.g. hoa.

I greatly appreciate any and all assistance.


Tezamen (talk) 23:44, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Answers to some of your questions: the citations tab should be used for uses of the word in print, such as newspaper articles, books, etc. This is distinct from a reference, which is placed on the main entry and is usually a link to another dictionary or other scholarly source. If you state the bibliographic details here someone can make a reference template for you, or you can look at some examples at Category:Reference templates by language. DTLHS (talk) 00:51, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
What type of reference would you like to create a template for? The list of citation templates, which are used to create reference templates, is found at Category:Citation templates. You simply choose the citation template that is most appropriate for your reference (for instance, {{cite-book}}) and place it at the page name Template:R:<reference name> or Template:R:<language code>:<reference name> (for instance, {{R:LSJ}} and {{R:ar:Wehr-4}}, two templates I happen to use often), and then fill out the parameters of the template as explained on the template documentation page. — Eru·tuon 01:05, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
Thank you both for your responses. @Erutuon: Would you use the latter template format (e.g. {{R:ar:Wehr-4}}) where the language code is the language in which the source is written? If not, what differentiates using this format from the format without the language code? The source for which I'm currently trying to create a template is a dictionary. The title is listed on the dictionary in both target languages; what is the best manner to handle this when formatting the reference? Would it suffice to only include the English portion of the title (e.g. English-Tahitian Dictionary)? Also, how do I handle a title that's formatted as: "English - Tahitian (newline) Tahitian - English (newline) Dictionary" in the reference itself? Here's what I have thus far, Template:R:ETD-Wahlroos
Thanks! Tezamen (talk) 02:10, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Tezamen: There seems to be no clear criterion determining whether the template name contains the language code. I would have thought that the language code would be used in cases where, without it, the reference name would be ambiguous, but I think there's no ambiguity in the case of {{R:ar:Wehr-4}} (Wehr's Arabic Dictionary).
The language code would be the language that the reference work is about. This case is odd because each half of the dictionary is about a different language. I think it is probably fine to give the title in English, as it is given on the Google Books page. Newlines should be ignored. — Eru·tuon 03:02, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: Yeah, it would be useful to develop clearer criteria for when the inclusion of the language code is warranted, hmm. Regarding titling the reference, I understand that newlines are to be ignored -- I was simply trying to illustrate the formatting of the title as it is displayed on the book cover, and, moreover, was asking how I should format the title into the reference. Does the reference, as formatted in the template I made here, properly convey the title as it is on the cover here? To be clearer, should it be "English - Tahiti Dictionary" or something such as "English - Tahiti / Tahiti - English Dictionary" ? If the latter, how should I properly format it inside of the reference (i.e. Sven Wahlroos (2002) English-Tahitian Dictionary, First edition, Honolulu: The Mā'ohi Heritage Press, ISBN 0-9627095-7-3) ? Thanks! Tezamen (talk) 03:20, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Tezamen: I would use a comma and n-dash: English–Tahitian, Tahitian–English Dictionary. — Eru·tuon 04:12, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: Thank you very much! Tezamen (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:de-noun creates incorrect plural without parameters[edit]

No parameters are given on Client, not even gender, but it's making a plural anyway and it's the wrong one. Can the template be fixed so that it no longer generates incorrect forms when no parameters are given? —CodeCat 19:31, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

list:Latin script letters[edit]

An IP has been generating and adding language-specific subtemplates for a lot of languages lately. One of the more recent ones was added to the Swedish section at e, which triggered "not enough memory" errors. Previewing the section containing this (and nothing else) shows that this uses 2.74 MB of memory. Obviously, that would make it impossible to use these templates on anywhere close to all 62 of the language sections on that page if it weren't for the fact that some of the memory use is shared between many of the module calls on the page.

Still, Latin-letter entries are inherently huge and resource-intensive, and having a type of template specifically designed to be used large numbers of times on each of these pages is tempting fate. Is there any way that these templates can be tightened up/rethought so they don't use so much memory? Chuck Entz (talk) 04:46, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

That's a ridiculously large amount of memory for one template. I wonder how that is happening: does every instance of {{l-self}} require the language object from Module:languages to be duplicated in memory? — Eru·tuon 04:54, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
In any case, it would be best to create a module that can generate letter and letter name templates in a consistent way. I think I'll work on that. — Eru·tuon 05:00, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Oh, @Daniel Carrero has already created a module that does that, Module:letters. — Eru·tuon 05:05, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I guess it's a work in progress. I used that module in appendices like Appendix:Letters/Portuguese. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 05:06, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't understand how the module works exactly, but it seems like the only difference from the previous form of the existing series of templates {{list:Latin script letters/en}} is that it doesn't include the language's word for "letter". That can easily be fixed. — Eru·tuon 05:40, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

I've created a function in Module:letters that is called by {{letters/sandbox}}. It's ready for implementation in any languages that don't have digraphs or trigraphs in their alphabets. I have implemented it in a few Latin-script letter lists: {{list:Latin script letters/en}}, {{list:Latin script letters/fr}}, {{list:Latin script letters/sv}}.

It needs a better name. {{letters}} is a template for Appendices, while {{letters/sandbox}} is for entries. I will look into how they could be merged: the differences are the presence of the word for "letter" at the beginning of the list in {{letters/sandbox}}, and the categories added by {{letters}}. Those could easily be dealt with by the module.

I also need to decide on a way to deal with digraphs and trigraphs (for instance in the Hungarian alphabet: {{list:Latin script letters/hu}}). — Eru·tuon 09:23, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

March 2017

Edit request to Module:headword[edit]

Please add "interjection forms" to the list of non-lemma POSs. —CodeCat 20:00, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

@CodeCat: done. —JohnC5 20:26, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Etym templates choking on Viennese German[edit]

{{bor|hu|VG.}}, for example, is throwing up a Lua error "attempt to index local 'parent' (a nil value)" (cf. diff). Strangely enough {{etyl|VG.|hu}} still works without problems. --Tropylium (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

@Tropylium: I think it's because the parent, de-AT, is itself in Module:etymology languages/data, and thus the parent language object cannot be accessed through Module:languages or Module:families, the two modules that Module:etymology is attempting to use in lines 144 and 145. I will see if I can fix it. — Eru·tuon 21:51, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Problem with aWa[edit]

Why won't the aWa gadget (A Wonderfool Archiver) work on WT:RFC? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:59, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested addition to Template:place[edit]

@Daniel Carrero, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV This is currently missing a classification for the constituent countries of the UK. These are commonly called countries, but they're countries within a country so a more specific term like "constituent country" is probably needed. Entries should be categorised in Category:xx:Countries of the United Kingdom, or perhaps Constituent countries, if that makes more sense. —CodeCat 00:39, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Automating rhymes[edit]

It seems to me that with the recent addition of mod:syllables functionality, we can entirely automate the rhyming functionality through {{IPA}}. Am I crazy? We could generate hidden categories of the type [[Rhymes:English/ɛf/<number of syllables>]] and then just transclude them. @CodeCat (I don't know whom to ping about rhyme stuff. Does anyone work on this?) —JohnC5 03:33, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

It's a good idea, but the difficulty, for English at least, would be the variety of phonemic transcription systems currently in use. There are the different English dialects, and the different ways of transcribing the phonemes of each dialect. There would have to be a way to mark the ones that correspond to the transcription system used on the rhymes pages, so that, for example, the module does not try to add a category for the Southern Hemisphere English transcription /hæo/ at how. Currently, all English IPA transcriptions are only marked with |lang=en, nothing more specific. And there are some pages with just one transcription that is probably UK or US but is not marked even with {{a}}. So, the solution would be to come up with some way to pass a parameter through the IPA template that will tell the module whether it can add a rhyme category. Several ways I can think of to do this: explicitly (by adding a rhyme-related parameter) or by adding a dialect parameter, or an addition to the |lang= parameter (perhaps a nation code such as -US, -UK, etc., though that would not be specific enough). — Eru·tuon 05:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I was honestly thinking first for the automated pronunciation modules first (Catalan, for example, or Latin if that makes any sense). —JohnC5 05:30, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Oh, okay. That should be pretty easy to do, I would think. — Eru·tuon 05:47, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
As for Catalan it is done on ca.wikt: ca:Categoria:Rimes en català. First step is to choose the transcription used for defining the rhymes, usually Valencian. Second, only two corrections are needed comparing Central Catalan and Valencian: separate -ar and -a(r), or always -e-, always -Ɛ-, alternating -e/Ɛ-. --Vriullop (talk) 19:06, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
The problem with automating the rhymes language-wide is that it's not selective. Right now, we create rhymes pages when we have rhymes, and we don't bother with words like orange, anthrax, width, length, breadth, depth, warmth, scorpion, obfuscate, stethoscope, bathyscaphe, etc. Then there are declensions and conjugations in many languages where just about everything rhymes (for instance, Category:Spanish verbs ending in -ar), or common suffixes like -phobia that always take the accent. Think of all the hidden comments in the rhymes pages asking not to add words with suffixes that are the same as the last syllable of the rhyme, because that combination would overwhelm the true occurrences of the rhyme. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:37, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I agree with such a concern. That truth is that all words in -phobia do rhyme and that does not make them inferior. —JohnC5 15:15, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I think I agree with you (John). It depends on how users want to use this. A poet certainly would appreciate verb-form rhymes. In theory we could allow rhymes of certain types to be collapsed/hidden, too, but it would be silly to do that kind of work unless real users request it. Equinox 00:34, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup request[edit]

Most results in [1]. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 23:42, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

@DTLHS, are you interested? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Can anyone think of any potential errors that would arise with an automatic replacement? DTLHS (talk) 00:23, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Obviously the general fix is to replace " ," with "," but there are some less common cases: ", ," needs to become "," (e.g. make, where there is an extra comma with no item between the commas), and ": ," needs to become ": " (e.g. path, which has a translation line that begins "Estonian: ,"). Equinox 00:31, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge I've done a test run of a few hundred entries- I didn't notice any obvious errors this replacement would cause but I'll review the diffs carefully before doing the remaining edits (a lot of pages). DTLHS (talk) 03:33, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Thank you. I think you know this, but your cleanup work is really invaluable. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Copulative does not always apply to verbs[edit]

At הוא and ניהו, the label {{lb|arc|copulative}} adds the category Category:Aramaic copulative verbs, but these are pronouns, not verbs. How should this be fixed? --WikiTiki89 20:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Copulative is not a context, so this is just a misuse of the label. —CodeCat 21:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
There are many labels that are not contexts: for instance, the very common "transitive" and "intransitive". Being a context is not required of a label. — Eru·tuon 21:12, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Those are contexts, because they specify senses that occur only when the verb is used transitively or intransitively. —CodeCat 21:53, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
That seems to me an odd interpretation of the word "context". But to redirect back to the topic, how is "copulative" not also a context in the same sense: the context being "when the pronoun is used copulatively"? — Eru·tuon 22:11, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Personally, when I see the label {{lb|en|transitive}}, I think it means not "when the verb is used transitively", but "this sense is transitive". — Eru·tuon 22:12, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
The whole reason we deprecated {{context}} in favor of {{label}} is that these labels are not always contexts. As for this case, I don't understand how a pronoun can be copulative anyway. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:08, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: I think it's because third-person pronouns in Semitic languages can be used where English would use a copulative verb: أَحْمَدٌ هُوَ قَصِيرٌ. (ʾaḥmadun huwa qaṣīrun.) “Ahmad is short.” (literally, “Ahmad he short”). — Eru·tuon 20:21, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
But that's not a lexical property of the individual pronouns, that's just a fact of Semitic syntax. הוא in both Aramaic and Hebrew is just a pronoun meaning "he, it". It doesn't mean "is", even if it's used in the same position of the sentence as the English verb "is". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:25, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree, but I am not sure how this would typically be analyzed by linguists: if they would consider the pronoun to have changed its part of speech. The Chinese copula developed in a similar way (as I recall learning in a historical linguistics course), but the entry does not say whether it is considered to be a verb. — Eru·tuon 20:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
The "Definitions" header is nonstandard and should be changed. —CodeCat 20:39, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I disagree, these prnouns do mean "is/are/am". Russian has the same construction with the word это (eto). In fact, in JBA, ניהו and its forms are only used for this purpose (i.e. as a copula). Additionally, in Hebrew and Aramaic (not sure about Arabic) these third person pronouns can serve as copulas even for a first or second person subject (as in אנא הוא מלכא (I am the king, literally I he king)). --WikiTiki89 20:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems to me they should be considered verbs then, not pronouns. If they were pronouns, they would be standing in for a noun, but they are not. — Eru·tuon 20:48, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
But they are not verbs, because they don't share any properties with verbs. They don't have tenses, unless you consider them to be a suppletive present tense of the verb "to be", which would be a bit strange in my mind. --WikiTiki89 20:58, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
In Hebrew, the negative copula אין behaves like a preposition when it comes to pronominal subjects, as in אינני בקרבכם (I am not among you, literally no-me among-you). Not everything that functions as a copula can be sensibly called a verb. --WikiTiki89 21:15, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Well, they don't seem to be pronouns either, since they don't refer to nouns, so perhaps they are an entirely different part of speech. — Eru·tuon 21:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
This seems more like a zero copula, like in Russian. —CodeCat 21:30, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
In أَحْمَدُ قَصِيرٌ (ʾaḥmadu qaṣīrun, Ahmad is short), you have a zero copula, but in أَحْمَدُ هُوَ قَصِيرٌ (ʾaḥmadu huwa qaṣīrun, Ahmad is short), هُوَ (huwa) is serving as a copula, so it's no longer a zero copula. This is a relatively common phenomenon that develops in languages with a zero copula, including in Russian as I mentioned above. --WikiTiki89 20:46, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
The Irish copula is/ba isn't a verb either, though it is usually glossed "is"/"was". Neither is it a pronoun. It's just a particle; maybe that's what these Semitic forms are. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:36, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Wait, what? It's a direct descendant of Proto-Indo-European *h₁ésti. How is it not a verb? —CodeCat 21:42, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
It was a verb as recently as Old Irish, but not anymore. For one thing, it takes the disjunctive form of pronouns, while verbs take the conjunctive form (is é vs. ); for another, it's followed by the predicate (when the predicate is indefinite) with the subject at the end (is múinteoir é Seán "Seán is a teacher"), while verbs are followed by the subject with the predicate at the end (tá Seán ina mhúinteoir "Seán is a teacher"). See this paper and the references it cites. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Particle is essentially a cover term for anything that doesn't have a real name, but it would probably be the best term to use. (So-called subjunctive particles, for instance, are actually conjunctions.) — Eru·tuon 21:46, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Usually particles are unchangeable; so if there gender and number agreement, it feels weird to call them particles. But even if we call them particles, we still have the original problem I brought up in this thread regarding automatic categorization. --WikiTiki89 20:33, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Two possible solutions: change the label used for the Semitic copulative words, or change the label for copulative verbs. The former would probably be easier, since I imagine there are far more copulative verbs marked with {{lb|xx|copulative}} than there are Semitic copulative words. — Eru·tuon 20:49, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Template:cite-web ignores title= parameter.[edit]

I get an error message saying "(Please provide the title of the work)" even when the parameter is provided. —CodeCat 23:08, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Added the parameter. It wasn't included as an option, but I see no reason why it should not be. — Eru·tuon 23:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Oops, {{cite-web}} already uses the parameter |title= for the page title (which is passed to the |chapter= parameter of {{cite-meta}}). The |title= parameter in {{cite-meta}} is, counterintuitively, set by the |blog=, |site=, |work= parameters of {{cite-book}}. — Eru·tuon 19:28, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Probably not a good idea. Parameters with the same name in different templates should have the same function too. —CodeCat 19:39, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree, but I'm not sure how to fix the problem. — Eru·tuon 22:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
This was done to ensure backward compatibility for the template. (Note that {{cite-journal}} is the same, as well as {{quote-journal}} and {{quote-web}}.) I suppose we could change the parameter names, and then have a bot to update all existing uses. Do we wish to do this? — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Unicode 10.0.0 Beta[edit]

Unicode version 10.0.0 beta is available if you are interested. [2] Focusing on characters, the significant change is that the addition of lots of Nushu, Hentaigana, CJK block F (and also 21 new characters in CJK main block), and some emojis [3]. The final version will be released in June. See you soon. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:59, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank God, finally an emoji for broccoli. Equinox 22:08, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Not only that, but also some Sawndip and chữ Nôm. Besides, the characters of CJK Unified Ideographs Extension F look tempting to write. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Also, I didn't know, that there is also the Persian zodiac! --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 06:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Changes to Module:links[edit]

Hello, I'm currently working to improve Module:links. Let me know if there are any problems, and I will do my best to fix them immediately. — Eru·tuon 20:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Initialism template inserts unwanted space[edit]

See UQ; note the full-stop (period) after the definition has a space before it, which is not in the markup. This didn't use to happen. Equinox 18:56, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

It appears that some edit has affected many templates: see {{fr-noun}} at qwerty. (And even {{m}}, used in the preceding sentence!) @Erutuon, any idea? — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:14, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@Equinox, Smuconlaw: Oh yes, it was my fault; fixed. Thanks for noticing! — Eru·tuon 19:20, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:21, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Terms with redundant transliterations[edit]

All the "Terms with redundant transliteration" categories are suddenly being populated even though the terms don't have redundant transliterations. For example, there are now more than a thousand entries in Category:Terms with redundant transliterations/ar, but most if not all of them are false positives. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

@Angr: Ahh, that was a result of my modification of the if-statements governing the addition of those categories. I think I have fixed the problem. It should begin to work correctly again, as the server updates the pages. — Eru·tuon 20:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Now that we're editing Module:links, can we also finally get rid of the silly phonetic_extraction that's in it? —CodeCat 20:31, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't know. What is it? — Eru·tuon 20:40, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
The reason both CodeCat and Wyang are currently both not admins at the moment.suzukaze (tc) 22:02, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

incomprehensible postcatboiler template documentation[edit]


The automatically-generated contents of this category has errors. The label given to the poscatboiler template is not valid. You may have mistyped it, or it simply has not been created yet. To add a new label, please consult the documentation of the template.

I'm trying to fix the chaos in the categories and descriptions of Finnish verbs, but most of my time is being wasted by trying to understand template documentation and https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Categories that is so badly written or missing info that is so essential that i can't figure out what to do. The problems must be pretty big because i've got lots of experience editing Wiktionary and Wikipedia and this has included quite many edits dealing with more than text editing, some of it quite technical in nature. --Espoo (talk) 21:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

poscatboiler is implemented by Module:category tree and its submodule Module:category tree/poscatboiler. A label needs to be defined in Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data or a subpage before it can be used. But you really don't need to use a template for specialized language-specific categories such as this one- just add the description and parent categories manually. DTLHS (talk) 21:43, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Also the label needs to match the category page title. DTLHS (talk) 21:53, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
@Espoo: Or you could just remove {{poscatboiler}} and edit these Finnish categories normally using wikitext. Using that template makes sense for a lot of categories that have the same description and parent categories across thousands of languages, like "Category:<language> nouns" (Category:English nouns, Category:Portuguese nouns, Category:Japanese nouns, etc.) but if you want to edit, say, Category:Finnish intransitive change morphological derivatives, and we won't have a lot of other categories named "Category:<language> intransitive change morphological derivatives" then using {{poscatboiler}} for that category is possible but maybe low priority if you can do the same work with wikitext. If you clean up the Finnish categories using just wikitext, we can migrate the categories to {{poscatboiler}} eventually anyway. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Problem with "American spelling" entries[edit]

See e.g. 100 meters. "American spelling" failed RFD, but this and many other entries still have red links. Mass bot fix? Equinox 00:32, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Module:labels/data/regional says that "American spelling" should link to w:American and British English spelling differences, but for some reason it dosn't seem to be working. At any rate, it looks like something in a module needs to be fixed, rather than having a bot fix a bunch of entries. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:46, 12 March 2017 (UTC).
Apparently the relevant module is Module:labels/data/subvarieties. I'm not sure about the status of Module:labels/data/regional- someone who knows should add a comment to it so people don't waste their time. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon, this seems to be your business again. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:11, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz, Metaknowledge: Module:labels/data/regional is still functional, but the labels in it will get overwritten by the labels in Module:labels/data/subvarieties, if they are spelled identically, because of the way in which Module:labels/data adds the subvariety labels. This can be changed, but I think it would be best to have the "American spelling" label in the subvarieties module since it relates to a single language. — Eru·tuon 17:18, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

span class="mention"[edit]

At "in the ballpark", I noticed some HTML/CSS stuff in the wikicode, using <span class="mention">. Is there a better or preferred way to achieve whatever is being done there? Equinox 15:09, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Done. —CodeCat 15:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
That's the class added by Module:script utilities (see Module:script utilities/documentation#tag_text), which is used by Module:links and {{m}}. It should always be added by the template {{m}}, and not be visible in the wikitext. — Eru·tuon 20:31, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


Documentation says that second parameter is needed/mandatory, or otherwise would be requested, but example ride shows in =Etym section[cognates] that can be used for only state the language name. Is this correct? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 18:46, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

If the language code is a language family, like ine = Indo-European, then the second parameter must not be present, otherwise a module error will occur. If the language code is a specific language (whether attested or reconstructed), then the second parameter must be present, but it can be simply |- if you don't want to mention a term. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Actually, at the moment, there isn't an error if you don't add a term: {{cog|en}}English [Term?]. I haven't sorted out when there should be an error and when there shouldn't. But the second parameter should generally be supplied. — Eru·tuon 20:36, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: I believe at some point in your recent edits you removed the ability of these templates to show [term?] and place entries in categories like Category:English term requests. I believe I was able to restore it now. The [term?] and category should appear when you don't type any term (parameter 3 for {{der}}, {{inh}} or {{bor}}; parameter 2 for {{cog}}) and the current code is a language or dialect, not a family. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Daniel Carrero: Oh, hm, you're right. I'm not sure how that happened, since the old module code is hard to read, but thanks for fixing it. — Eru·tuon 18:48, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
You're welcome. :) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:51, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Daniel Carrero, Erutuon: I don't know whose edit it was, but now etymology templates are choking on languages with no scripts, such as "und" or "pregrc". Chuck Entz (talk) 03:42, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: I'm puzzled. It seems to also be generating an error for language families, but that ought to have been avoided by the code that adds an empty term - for language families. Frustratingly, it is difficult to sort out the logical progression and get the problem dealt with, in the current form of the module. — Eru·tuon 07:33, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I just switched the order of two functions and it seems to clear up this problem. I'm not sure if it won't cause other problems. We'll see. — Eru·tuon 08:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
It should behave the same as {{m|en}}, and add a term request, at the very least. I'm not sure what the point is of allowing - as the second parameter. If you're using a template to show a cognate but then don't show the cognate, what's the point? —CodeCat 20:59, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
I've seen it used in cases where a cognate word has the same form in two different languages: for instance, in free, where the Danish and Norwegian cognates have the same spelling. — Eru·tuon 21:16, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Then you need to list them both, because {{cog}} links to the sections of the languages. Furthermore, although the spelling is the same, the pronunciation is not. The language tagging affects the pronunciation used by screen readers, so if you only include a Danish link then it will only say the word in a Danish pronunciation. —CodeCat 21:18, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Well, that makes sense, but it will require editing a lot of pages. Perhaps a bot could do it. — Eru·tuon 21:20, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Sometimes {{cog}} doesn't list a term because an editor wants to insert a word in between the language name and the term, e.g. "the {{cog|sa|-}} root {{m|sa|गम्}}". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:45, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Do you even need to use {{cog}} then? —CodeCat 16:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I think it would be best to use {{cog}} in all cases where one is mentioning the language name of a cognate term. That way, if we want to make changes to the way cognates are formatted or handled (say, by adding a class for language names of cognates, or by adding categories for terms with cognates in particular languages), it can be done relatively easily, by changing the output of the template. — Eru·tuon 18:36, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Erutuon. Also, by using {{cog}}, we can easily keep track of changes in language names... If we wanted to change, say, "Old English" to "Anglo-Saxon" (which is very unlikely, but other language name changes do happen), we could make the new language name appear in all instances of {{cog}} at once. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Please comment on adding pronunciation assessment[edit]

Please endorse or critique meta:Grants:Project/Intelligibility transcriptions or both.

Under what conditions would you want to put microphone inputs in the pronunciation sections in Wiktionaries? Here's an example, adapted from read#Pronunciation, using square brackets to mock up buttons:

Noun, and verb's present tense
  • enPR: rēd, IPA(key): /ɹiːd/
  • (file)
    Try saying: [Record 🔴] [Stop ⬛] [Play ▶️] [Evaluate ❓] [Say in phrase 🔗]
  • (file)
    Try saying: [Record 🔴] [Stop ⬛] [Play ▶️] [Evaluate ❓] [Say in phrase 🔗]
  • Rhymes: -iːd
  • Homophones: reed, rede
Verb's past tense and past participle
  • enPR: rĕd, IPA(key): /ɹɛd/
  • (file)
    Try saying: [Record 🔴] [Stop ⬛] [Play ▶️] [Evaluate ❓] [Say in phrase 🔗]
  • Rhymes: -ɛd
  • Homophones: red, redd

Ideally, the "Evaluate" button will produce audio feedback with an option to also view pertinent visual information. The link to say the word in a phrase may use OAuth or other registration to keep track of the user's word and diphone proficiency for adaptive instruction in general vocabulary. There is likely to be a small audio level meter between the Record and Stop buttons.

If you are interested in topical vocabulary, please see this glossary from 1978. James Salsman (talk) 23:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

"Terms with redundant transliterations" categories[edit]

Anyone know what the "Terms with redundant transliterations" categories popping up are for? I see "Category:Terms with redundant transliterations/yi" and "Category:Terms with redundant transliterations/bg" at the radish entry and have no idea why. — SMUconlaw (talk) 08:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Those are added by the {{t}} template in the Translations section. Those categories used to only be added for a small set of languages, but now they are added for any language with transliteration. They're just for tracking. They should be hidden. Add {{auto cat}} to the category pages if you would like to help hide them. (Though I suppose a bot could do it more efficiently.) — Eru·tuon 08:25, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Oh, I see. But why are the transliterations "redundant"? — SMUconlaw (talk) 08:44, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Ohh, right, didn't explain that. It means the transliteration supplied in the |tr= parameter is the same as the one generated by the transliteration module. — Eru·tuon 09:43, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Ah, OK ... not really following, but never mind ... ;-) — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:51, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Smuconlaw: Heh. I will try to explain further. The transliteration modules for particular languages are found in Category:Transliteration modules. Say you put a non-Latin alphabet into a linking template: for instance, Ancient Greek {{m|grc|γένος}}γένος (génos). The transliteration module for Ancient Greek (Module:grc-translit) automatically generates a transliteration, génos, and the links module displays it in parentheses after the link. If you copy that transliteration and put it in the |tr= parameter of the linking template – {{m|grc|γένος|tr=génos}}γένος (génos) – the redundant transliterations category will be added. (Or it should be. It seems not to be added in this case, and I don't know why.) — Eru·tuon 19:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I see! Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:18, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Blasphemy categories[edit]

Would it be possible to incorporate Category:en:Blasphemy and Category:cs:Blasphemy into the tree of automatically generated categories? Thanks! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:17, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Blasphemy according to who? —CodeCat 17:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I think general categorization without further subdivision would be OK. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Reading your contribution again I got an idea that you had not asked because of the categorization, but because you wanted to suggest that the topic category is subjective. That's quite possible, I did not think about this. I just saw the en:category which has been existing for several years, founded the same category for cs: and asked to incorporate them into the category tree. If you think they are redundant, feel free to suggest their deletion. But if they are not deleted, they should be incorporated into the tree. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Now I have noticed that the English category has already survived rfd. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Maybe it's time for another RFDO. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:25, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
I am quite neutral about the stay x delete possibilities, but if it stays, it should be included into the tree. If it is not worth included into the tree, it should not stay. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 10:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
This seems at least as subjective as the "politically correct" category that was being mooted for removal. Equinox 19:24, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Category:en:Towns in England[edit]

I have obviously done something wrong, as it shows "Categories with invalid label". I used auto cat first, but changed it to topic cat. DonnanZ (talk) 19:00, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

@DonnanZ: The category simply hasn't been created yet. Once it has been added to the relevant module, either the template {{auto cat}} or {{topic cat}} can be used to create the category. The category module to which the category would be added is probably Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names old or Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names. I am not sure what the difference between the two is, though one seems to use "towns" in its category names and the other uses "municipalities". — Eru·tuon 22:55, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
The category has been created and now has over 60 entries. I possibly have done things the wrong way round, not creating a red link first (with the name of the category) before creating the actual category. DonnanZ (talk) 23:14, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Why do you think this is a useful category to have when we already have Category:en:Cities in England? DTLHS (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Towns don't have city status, so they can't be classified as such; there are officially only 50 or so cities in England, and some very large towns which don't have city status. There are categories for Towns in the United States of America, Canada, Pennsylvania, New York, Maine, Ontario, British Columbia and possibly others. Also Category:en:London, which covers towns within Greater London, and Category:en:Place names of England, which is empty. It was prompted by a user classifying Stourbridge as a city, which it certainly isn't. DonnanZ (talk) 23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Why does "Move page" have a stupid crippled button?[edit]

When you go to move a page, the actual "Move page" button on the form is this weird blue button, not a normal form button, therefore it cannot be activated normally using the keyboard (e.g. Tab to focus it, Space to press it). What on Earth is the point of that? Very bad for usability. Equinox 22:49, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the same thing. I can use tab to focus it and space to press it. — Eru·tuon 22:50, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
I second Erutuon. It's a weird blue button alright, but I can still use tab and space with it. --WikiTiki89 22:56, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Since a fairly recent change alt-shift-m immediately summons the move form, which seems pretty good and consistent with the various other keyboard shortcuts implemented at the same time. DCDuring TALK 22:58, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, well, in Chrome, when I tab to the button and press Space, it does a sort of page-down scroll operation, which is what Chrome usually does if you press Space without any interactive UI element focused. Equinox 23:40, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
I was using Chrome on Windows 7. --WikiTiki89 11:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
I got the same behavior as Equinox and Wikitiki did, but on FF 52.0. DCDuring TALK 11:54, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

etytree, a graphical and multilingual etymology dictionary based on Wiktionary: feedback and endorsement[edit]

Hi all!

I have now completed the first phase of the project and I’m asking for a renewal and for your feedback! Pls add your comment at the end of page Renewal.

A link to the demo is demo, while a link to the first release is tools.wmflabs.org/etytree.

Looking forward to your comments on the grant page! Epantaleo (talk) 14:24, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Categories en:Currency and en:Currencies[edit]

There are 97 currencies in the category Category:en:Currencies and 211 in the category Category:en:Currency. I think we should have only one category for English names of currencies. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:59, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

There is only one category, Category:en:Currencies. Category:en:Currency is for terms related to currency. —CodeCat 18:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Language data edit[edit]

Please add this to bnt-ngu-pro:

        sort_key = {
                from = {"[àáâǎ]", "[èéêě]", "[ìíîǐ]", "[òóôǒ]", "[ùúûǔ]", "ḿ", "[ǹńň]", ACUTE, GRAVE, CIRC, CARON},
                to   = {"a"     , "e"     , "i"     , "o"     , "u"     , "m", "n"    }},

CodeCat 16:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

@CodeCat: Done. —JohnC5 17:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Parts of speech[edit]

For a non-profit endeavor, I am looking for wordlists broken into parts of speech. Can anyone help me figure out how to extract wordlists from Wiktionary into verbs, adverbs, nouns and adjectives? I'd also love to be able to subdivide nouns into singular vs. plural, and verbs into verb tense, but it is not necessary. —This unsigned comment was added by Crossword.guy (talkcontribs) at 14:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC).

You can visit (for example) Category:English nouns: it's split across many pages, because there are so many words. If you want to generate a complete list then you will need to download one of the periodic dumps of entry titles (several gigabytes of XML!) and process it with software of some kind. Equinox 14:50, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
You can also use the category API to download all titles in a particular category. DTLHS (talk) 15:57, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Autobalancing translation tables[edit]

Can someone modify {{trans-top}} so that it autobalances the columns the way {{col-top}} does? That way we wouldn't have to keep balancing the columns manually. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

But there's still {{trans-mid}}. If we are going to remove that, then we'll have to modify the translation script as well.
Also, some time ago I proposed moving the favourite translations from the header into the body of the table, but visible when the table is collapsed, like the inflection of openen. Can this also be implemented as well, while we're at it? —CodeCat 17:43, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
What does that have to do with Angr's proposal? Can we try to do one thing at a time? DTLHS (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Because they both require modifying the script, and it's easier to do it right the first time. —CodeCat 18:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
At the same time that {{trans-top}} becomes self-balancing, all content can be deleted from {{trans-mid}}, so its presence has no effect on anything. Then a bot can go through and remove it, but in the meantime it does no harm. As for the other suggestion, I don't have "favorites" implemented on translation tables, so I have no opinion, but I do think the two things could be done separately from each other. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:16, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
  • this version of editor.js and this version of trans-top seem to work. There's really no good way to test editor.js. You have to disable it from the preferences and insert the new script into your browser's console.
  • I have not tested targeted translations. --Dixtosa (talk) 10:41, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
    On mobile view it does not show one single column as current template do. --Vriullop (talk) 12:06, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
    That can be fixed easily with css. --Dixtosa (talk) 15:39, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Firefox and Javascript[edit]

In FF 52.0.2, but not MS Edge [or Chrome 00:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)] , two bits of functionality delivered, I think, via JS are not available to me. One is the tab display of Preferences. The other is the "Regex editor" that appears on the left of Wiktionary windows when the edit frame is opened. I am hoping not to have to abandon FF for Chrome, which I hope doesn't have this problem. (Edge doesn't seem to interact well with Wiktionary.) DCDuring TALK 00:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

In Chrome, I tried turning on the regex-editor the other day and nothing appeared in my left-hand panel. Dunno if that's a caching issue or something. Didn't try hard. Equinox 00:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I find that sometimes the regex editor and my TemplateScript scripts show up on the sidebar, and sometimes they don't. Similarly, sometimes the code editor for Module pages shows up and sometimes it doesn't. Reloading (ctrl-r) or clearing cache and reloading (ctrl-shift-r) fixes the problem. — Eru·tuon 01:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, but those don't work for me. I wonder if the reloading is defeated by caching on the part of my ISP or further up the network. DCDuring TALK 12:13, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
AFAICT I'm not getting any JS functionality, eg, show-hide of translations and derived and related terms and selective display of extended characters, as well the items mentioned above. The problem seems to apply to all 3 browsers I've tried, but seems to be Wiktionary-specific. Why might this be happening? Any ideas about how to fix or where to go for help. DCDuring TALK 23:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Problem seems specific to one of my computers. Maybe reboot would help. DCDuring (talk) 03:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Reboot didn't help with Firefox. It is as if FF has lost it JS capability. DCDuring (talk) 16:17, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Does using incognito mode have any effect? DTLHS (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I have just discovered the source of the problem: a FF add-on called YesScript which I had forgotten that I had installed. I will look into it a bit to see if YesScript can be configured to not give me the problem and whether it is worth the trouble to have it. DCDuring (talk) 17:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
  • The last version of FF as of today is 52 0 1. Are you using pre-release version? Anyways make a screenshot of browser's console (by pressing F12)--Dixtosa (talk) 16:38, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
    I am using FF 52.01. My lysdexia may have been acting up when I reported a different version. See above for the status of resolution. DCDuring (talk) 17:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
    The problem: A little too easy to turn YesScript on (and off). I had accidentally blocked all JS scripts from running on Wiktionary. If I went to more weird sites it might be worth having the capability. DCDuring (talk) 20:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

More cleanup request[edit]

Entries with Etymology 2 but not Etymology 1. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 04:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

User:DTLHS/cleanup/numbered etymology errors. DTLHS (talk) 21:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Language data edit[edit]

Please add the following for the codes nd, nr, ss and xh:

        entry_name = {
                from = {"[āàáâǎ]", "[ēèéêě]", "[īìíîǐ]", "[ōòóôǒ]", "[ūùúûǔ]", "ḿ", "[ǹńň]", MACRON, ACUTE, GRAVE, CIRC, CARON},
                to   = {"a"      , "e"      , "i"      , "o"      , "u"      , "m", "n"    }},

and the following for bnt-phu:

        entry_name = {
                from = {"[àá]", "[èé]", "[ìí]", "[òó]", "[ùú]", "ḿ", "[ǹń]", ACUTE, GRAVE},
                to   = {"a"   , "e"   , "i"   , "o"   , "u"   , "m", "n"   }},

CodeCat 01:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done - -sche (discuss) 03:05, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Two needed IDS's[edit]

Sorry if this does not really relate to Wiktionary. For anyone who is potential to propose new characters to Unicode. I want to introduce two needed IDS's I hope someone would help. At the moment, I will use arrows ↔ and ↷ to present their operations. --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Ken Lunde on Twitter is fairly responsive to questions. —suzukaze (tc) 05:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
I sent the picture to him. --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:51, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@Octahedron80, Suzukaze-c: I don't think we should be using these symbols for the IDSs yet, like at 𠄏. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 10:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
All right. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:04, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Handling of English transliterations by {{der}}[edit]

The {{der}} template is not handling some Greek transliterations properly. For example, {{der|en|el|ῥηματικός||[[verbal]], pertaining to [[verb]]s}} (at rhematic) does not render the ῥ as rh:

Greek ῥηματικός (ῥimatikós, verbal, pertaining to verbs)

SMUconlaw (talk) 05:37, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

@Smuconlaw: The templates are working fine, someone just used the wrong language code. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:43, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps change el to grc instead? --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Ancient Greek ῥηματικός (rhēmatikós, verbal, pertaining to verbs)
Ah, I see! Thanks, will fix that. [Already fixed by Metaknowledge!] — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge, Octahedron80: Actually, I notice that "el" is the correct code for Modern Greek. Why doesn't it work properly in {{der}}? — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
"ῥ" is not a character used in modern Greek. DTLHS (talk) 17:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


This page is taking ~70.25 MB of Lua memory, which highly exceeds the limit of 50 MB. As a result, it has been having errors of not enough memory. The English section alone takes 41.62 MB of memory, with the translations taking 34.21 MB. How could we solve this problem? --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:09, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

These Lua memory errors are fickle. I wonder what caused the problem to appear this time. One thing that might help is using {{t-simple}} for some of the languages in the Translations section. — Eru·tuon 09:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Do problems also occur on woman, which also has a lot of translations (second only to water, I think)? If it persists I suppose more thorough testing is in order, e.g. taking out all languages with auto-transliteration, then putting them back and taking out all languages like Chinese that invoke big central modules containing lots of characters, ... - -sche (discuss) 16:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Standard Estonian[edit]

Just FYI, there is a "Lua error" when attempting to add translations using ISO 639-3 EKK (Standard/North Estonian). It should redirect to ISO 639-1 ET (Estonian). Nicole Sharp (talk) 10:15, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

We don't do redirects/aliases for language codes. —CodeCat 13:41, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
We don't always do redirects/aliases, but User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js does actually have the capacity for it, used on some codes like act, and guj to gu. I've updated it to also convert ekk to et. Somewhat orthogonal, but relevant if we ever try to convert that script to use only the Lua data modules without losing functionality (we especially would benefit from retaining its ability to recognize [at least unique] non-canonical names), it would seem that in the case of most language mergers, where one code is subsumed into only one other code, that data could be added to the modules, similar to how "parents" were added to the module. (Some mergers and splits would be harder to encode, and impossible to use in the translation-adder, because a few codes like ghc are merged context-dependently into two other codes.) - -sche (discuss) 16:17, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
And to be absolutely clear, this "alias" (ekk→et) only works when adding translations using User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js; ekk cannot be used in other contexts, because as CodeCat correctly notes, we don't do redirects for language codes. But if we added information about "subsumed codes" to the language-data modules, perhaps we could, but we'd have to discuss whether or not it'd be desirable. - -sche (discuss) 16:20, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
We'd need redirects for all template names too. Probably not worth the trouble. —CodeCat 16:23, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Edit request[edit]

Please add

translit_module = "shn-translit",

to m["shn"] in Module:languages/data3/s. Thanks. Wyang (talk) 11:52, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: Done. —JohnC5 15:02, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Lua memory errors[edit]

de currently has a Lua memory error, as happens very often.

It may be because of my changes to Module:links allowing unsupported titles to be linked to, since that may have added a certain amount of memory to every instance of linking and etymology templates.

I also created a function in Module:letters to generate letter name lists in entries (such as {{list:Latin script letter names/la}}). I thought would lower memory usage, but it appears to have had the opposite effect.

I wish there were a more effective way to lower memory usage. I suspect much of the problem is the large language data modules, but I am not sure how much of their data is loaded in each instance of the linking and etymology templates, or how redundantly or repetitively the data is loaded. — Eru·tuon 22:23, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't have time to see if this is an actual problem but one way to get memory usage down is to minimize string concatenation. DTLHS (talk) 22:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: The language data modules do not seem to be the problem. {{R:M&A}} (powered by Module:R:M&A) are using a huge amount of memory: when I remove the template from the page, Lua memory usage goes from 50.14 MB all the way down to 34.58 MB, a difference of about 15 MB (!). It uses Module:data tables to retrieve its data from data submodules. Would you, or someone else (@Isomorphyc?), mind looking at these modules to see if there's a way to reduce the template's Lua memory usage? Its complexity is above my ability to understand. — Eru·tuon 23:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
The amount of memory being used by {{R:M&A}} is puzzling; the page lengths of the submodules of Module:data tables that de is listed as transcluding do not add up to 15 MB, by my calculation. — Eru·tuon 23:48, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I know that Isomorphic worked a lot on these modules to reduce memory usage. I don't know how they work either. DTLHS (talk) 00:01, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon, DTLHS: Sorry I've been away so much more than intended. I will make a temporary fix in the next couple of days, but in the longer term I am beginning to feel that of the templates/modules supported by Module:data tables, the non-externally-linking dictionaries, {{R:M&A}} and {{R:Woodhouse}}, which consume >90% of the resources in Module:data tables should be moved in functionality to Wikimedia Tool Labs, because Wiktionary's infrastructure is not very compatible, and a more general solution would be helpful elsewhere. That said, it is likely my immediate fix will be to remove or special-case the R:M&A links in de and a few other extremely common words. It turns out these tables only have outrageously high memory usage in half a dozen or a dozen entries for common words requiring, as it were, a large number of separate headword lookups to build a full thesaurus entry. All these headword entries and their hash table collisions have to be loaded into memory to do this. Looking at some Greek entries it also appears that I need to take a look at some {{R:Middle Liddell}} module errors. Hope to see you all more actively very soon. Isomorphyc (talk) 00:05, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
@Isomorphyc: Ah, the {{R:Middle Liddell}} error was my fault. It's now fixed. — Eru·tuon 00:41, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Blocked repeatedly from creating my user page[edit]

I'm being disallowed from making the first edit of my Wiktionary user page, the same edit I have currently on my Wikipedia Commons, by some automatic process.

It said to report it here.

  • I have seen this before. You are using a hyperlink instead of a wikilink. Some wikis block new users from creating pages with hyperlinks. Not sure if that is the same issue here or not. Nicole Sharp (talk) 14:04, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
    • Thanks that worked for me. And whoops forgot to sign for the first time. SpikeballUnion (talk) 18:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Edit request to Module:pt-noun[edit]

Please replace line 107 with:

return m_headword.full_headword({lang = lang, pos_category = "nouns", heads = {head}})

CodeCat 14:11, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

@CodeCat: I inserted the following instead
return m_headword.full_headword({lang = lang, pos_category = "nouns", heads = {head}, categories = {}})
because otherwise on previewing centavo gives "Lua error in Module:headword at line 402: bad argument #1 to 'insert' (table expected, got nil)". --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
That works too, thanks. —CodeCat 14:33, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Independent toggling for subtables[edit]

@Metaknowledge and I are working on a new table system for Swahili verbs (found here), and we wanted to have collapsed subtables. We'd like a way to make the main table expand without having the subtables expand. I asked @CodeCat for help fixing this problem in this discussion, but sysop permissions are required. I was wondering whether anyone else could help with this. —JohnC5 18:39, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

As a hint for whoever wants to give it a try, essentially the problem lies in lines 653 and 654 of MediaWiki:Gadget-legacy.js. These lines select the elements that are to be shown/hidden when the button is pressed. Currently, they select all subelements with the necessary CSS classes, but this includes the elements belonging to the subtable. To fix it, any subelement whose class is vsSwitcher, as well as any of its child elements, should be excluded from the selection. —CodeCat 18:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)