Wiktionary:Information desk/2019/July

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← June 2019 · July 2019 · August 2019 → · (current)

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"the town is back that way"

Is here "back" a preposition? otherwise, what meaning of back applies here? --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Adverb, sense 2. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:44, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of a spooky Swedish word

Hello world! I know that "mö" is Swedish for "silt" (fine earth deposited by water) but I can't find any online references on this. I found this information working with the Unified Soil Classification System (USCS), in which the letter that describes Silt is "M", from mö. My material even states that "mö" is Silt in Swedish.

Someone can help me? — This unsigned comment was added by FloriansGeyerSH (talk • contribs).

You probably can't find any online references because it doesn't seem to be true. I will guess that you are the same person as 200.131.33.105, who added this word despite its nonexistence. The word you presumably want is mo, as documented at sv:w:Mo (jordart). —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:43, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Schritt#German

Does anyone think that the usex under no 3 is approbriate and that locker room talk like that is necessary to clarify the meaning? --77.9.102.52 15:17, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

What example do you propose? I always think that if usage examples are so griffig (😄) that people are impassioned then this help learners memorize. Never had a problem with quoting political texts either. Everyone gets his bashing. Also one should implement the frequent collocation “in den Schritt greifen”, the underlying fact of which is regularly offensive. I also like definitions like in pathicus “someone submitting to unnatural lust” or formerly at proxenetism “the negotiation of immoral bargains between the sexes”. If a dictionary entry incites to rethink moral assumptions while still rendering the requested information then its goal is served double and customer ties grow. See also Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2019/April § You're probably using the wrong dictionary. Fay Freak (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

You're an idiot. Come up with something else and stop babbling about censorship. DTLHS (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

That usex was definitely not appropriate. If you want to illustrate the collocation “in den Schritt greifen/fassen etc” why not find a suitable quotation? – Jberkel 21:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you both, Jberkel and DTLHS. Apart from being inapprobriate and offensive, one could even argue that the sentence wasn´t a good usage example as Schritt in this sense isn´t an obscene term (as FayFreak, perhaps overcompensating his inhibitions under the veil of the pseudonym, seems to think) but rather a term in a register higher than colloquial speech. In the example one would expect vulgarisms like "Fotze" or concealing expressions like "Muschi". --77.4.152.75 11:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

I'd say it's euphemistic, in the same way crotch is currently labeled as euphemism for genitalia. – Jberkel 11:31, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I think (almost) all terms for genitalia, excretions etc. in higher registers (and not only there) are euphemistic (or at least originated as euphemisms).--77.4.152.75 13:33, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

If anyone needs a quotation that will not meet with opprobrium, look here.  --Lambiam 12:30, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

a specified weight of shot

Isn't the use following meaning of shot uncountable?

pounder (plural pounders) 1. (in combination) A gun capable of firing a specified weight of shot in pounds --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:36, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

No, it is countable. If one gun is a ten-pounder, two of them are ten-pounders. Equinox ◑ 18:06, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: My question was about the noun shot --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:32, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh. The text you quote is correct: I think it's "some shot", like "some ammunition". Equinox ◑ 19:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

The sentence works even if it's countable, though, just like "a specified colour of hat" or "a specified type of car". Equinox ◑ 19:52, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: the entry only offers as plural shots though --Backinstadiums (talk) 20:00, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done See uncountable senses at shot. Equinox ◑ 20:02, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Can definitions from be used from other websites/collections if they are cited?

I know that it is generally disallowed for definitions to be directly copied from other dictionaries because of possible copyright infringement, but I'm unsure if the same applies to not dictionary resources and if providing a citation next to the definition allows for them to be imported. Is the situation different for books for which the copyright has expired? Thanks, The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 21:57, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

AFAIK, If something is out of copyright then you can use it freely. Copyright may not expire at the same time in every country, however. Equinox ◑ 22:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

What is a "not dictionary resource"? Copyright is copyright. If it's copyrighted, then it can't be copied directly regardless of it's referenced or not. If the copyright is expired then yes, they can probably be imported (depending on if the community deems it worthwhile to do so). DTLHS (talk) 22:09, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

The resource that I am considering is from 1939, 80 years ago, which is long enough in the U.S. A non dictionary resource would be something like MathWorld. Just to note, I'm not talking about a whole batch of definitions, just a few manually. The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 22:34, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• My tip to you is to copy it anyway, but change one or two words. --I learned some phrases (talk) 22:48, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Hu Shih and his early romanized name "Hu Su"/"Hu Suh"

Hello all. What do you think the romanized forms "Hu Su" and "Hu Suh" mean about 胡適? Where could this romanization have derived from? Hakka? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

have someone to do something

We had Mother to stay over Christmas. What would be the correct analysis of to? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:56, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

It is the same kind of usage as in "mother came to stay". Equinox ◑ 11:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

talk one's way out of

Can talk one's way out of be ditransitive (or bitransitve, if that is the correct term)? I know the verb talk can indeed --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:47, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The technical term is “ambitransitive”. The verb “talk” in the collocation already has an object (“one’s way”) and cannot take another one, but the preposition out of requires an object. It is not usual to consider that transitivity; you cannot make that object the subject of a passive construction. (“She talked her way out of the speeding ticket” ↛ *”The speeding ticket was talked her way out of by her”.)  --Lambiam 12:59, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam: I was thinking about an indirect object as talk has, e.g. talk one's way out of to somebody --Backinstadiums (talk) 13:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I see, you did mean “ditransitive”. I do not think that the verb talk is ditransitive, though. Grammarians do not consider the prepositional phrase “to the officer” in the sentence “She talked to the officer” an indirect object. It has to be a noun phrase; for example “the officer” is an indirect object in the sentence “She gave the officer a compliment”. Also, I think that a sentence like *“She talked her way out of the speeding ticket to the officer” is ungrammatical.  --Lambiam 15:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

two days before yesterday

What is the purpose of the entry two days before yesterday? --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

To me it appears as a redirect page to a translation hub, not an entry by itself.  --Lambiam 19:38, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thanks. Similarly, two days after tomorrow offers its antonym, three days ago, but says nothing about how to express it in English. Any idea? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:27, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

I don’t understand. Express what in English? To say “two days after tomorrow” in English, use “two days after tomorrow”, or its synonym “the day after the day after tomorrow”. You can also say “three days from now” (which does not have an entry or redirect page). To say “three days ago”, you can use “three days ago”, or, synonymously, “the day before the day before yesterday”.  --Lambiam 11:04, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thanks. I was asking because that entry does not offer synonyms, unlike two days after tomorrow --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:19, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

User:Backinstadiums, you can take a look at Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2018-03/Including translation hubs in case you were still confused why two days after tomorrow doesn't have a definition or synonyms. --Habst (talk) 01:07, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Habst: I am O.K. with it not having a definition, but I'd definitely add synonyms --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:51, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

grammar in older English texts

Hi all. I have a question. Was grammar a bit different back in 1885 when James Legge published his translation of the ancient Chinese text the Book of Rites? I noticed some strange constructions that do not conform with English grammar, or at least the grammar we use today:

While alive, he, is so styled; and if he die (during that time), he continues to be so designated.

The son of an inferior member of the harem cannot offer the sacrifice (to his grandfather or father); if (for some reason) he have to do so, he must report it to the honoured son, (the head of the family).

If a man observe the rules of propriety, he is in a condition of security; if he do not, he is in one of danger. 

If the teacher speak to him, he will answer; if he do not, he will retire with hasty steps.

Hence, in buying a concubine, if he do not know her surname, he must consult the tortoise-shell about it.

When (a youth) is in attendance on an elder at a meal, if the host give anything to him with his own hand. If he do not so give him anything, he should eat without bowing.

Source is here. I have checked it against the original paper publication, so these are not scannos. The constructions are "normal" in other parts of the chapter (e.g. "he ascends", "he visits", "he styles himself", "he continues", etc.). ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:50, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Those seem to be all subjunctive forms, and the English subjunctive has almost completely faded out in the past century or so. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:48, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Note that in all examples it is the active verb of an if clause, expressing a possible contingency.  --Lambiam 15:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

true-life: based on fact

fact is countable, so are any of the following idioms? based on fact, on fact --Backinstadiums (talk) 14:34, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Something can be based on fact or based on facts but there is nothing especially idiomatic about those phrases. *On fact alone is just wrong. There's in fact (different shade of meaning?), but not *in facts. Equinox ◑ 14:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: fact is countable, so in based on fact it's being used uncountably, which I thought was reason enough for it to be idiomatic. --Backinstadiums (talk) 14:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Fact can be uncountable: "what I'm telling you is fact, not fiction". Equinox ◑ 14:58, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

particles and affixes

Hello,

I'm currently working on the Alutor language, but since the language is polysynthetic, should I add every small particle? E.g words like tə- (1.sg in verbs), -la- (plural marker in verbs), -tkə- (imperfective marker in verbs) and so on.

Millerutt (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I think that is what we normally do. At least, for Turkish verbs we have some: -ecek (future tense suffix) and -me (negation), although most are still missing: -iyor (continuous), -di (observed past), -miş (reported past), -ebil (possibility), -ir (present simple). A problem specific to Turkish is that most have a plethora of alternatives: -di can also assume the forms -dı, -du, -dü, -ti, -tı, -tu and -tü.  --Lambiam 00:10, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'm also curious, how can I make a headword template for a language? I am currently using the {head} function, but I find it's not that helpful when I'm adding the roots of nouns. - Millerutt (talk) 00:16, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Can’t you use headword templates for other languages as a model? Otherwise you’ll have to be more specific as to what it is you wish to accomplish.  --Lambiam 13:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I would say that entries for all the particles and affixes is especially important for polysynthetic/agglutinative languages. There's just no way you can cover every possible combination in inflection tables, so you need to give people the tools to analyze the combinations they do encounter and to be able to create the necessary ones. The tricky part is how to deal with how multiple affixes interact with each other and with the word: not just the obvious phonological considerations, but also things like restrictions on ordering, and whether any affixes are incompatible with each other. Not that dictionaries in general are very good at such things, even with morphologically simpler languages such as English. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:15, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

What I mean by the headline templates is how do I create them. I would like to make a template for alutor something like {alr-noun|root|XX|dual|XX|plural|XX}, but i'm stuck with the {head|alr|noun|dual|XX|plural|XX} instead. Also, when I'm adding examples of polysynthetic verbs, should I split the words up e.g мытнуткын -> мыт-ну-ткы-н -Millerutt (talk) 18:06, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

What would you like the output of {{alr-noun|root|XX|dual|XX|plural|XX}} to be? What is the first XX? — Eru·tuon 02:22, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Nevermind the templates. When I add examples with polysynthetic verbs for Alutor, should I divide the morphemes with a (-). Lets use тыйылӄатык which means I am sleeping, and I want to highlight the I part of the verbs should I write it as ты-йылӄат-ык then, or тыйылӄатык? -Millerutt (talk) 21:34, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Not knowing any Alutor, I am not sure what the best approach is, but in general we show the entry in its most common orthography, which in this case presumably is тыйылӄатык. To show its composition, an Etymology section can be used. For example, antiestablishmentarianism presents its make-up as anti- +‎ establishment +‎ -arian +‎ -ism – an extreme example; I think it better to leave the establishmentarian component intact. You can use the templates {{prefix}}, {{suffix}}, {{confix}}, or, neutrally, {{affix}} or {{compound}}. If the morphemes ты and ык are, respectively, a prefix and a suffix, you want to see ты- +‎ йылӄат +‎ -ык with hyphens; if neither is to be considered an affix, ты +‎ йылӄат +‎ ык is preferable. I am not sure why you should need bolding; I think you should assume a basic knowledge of Alutor grammar for readers interested in the composition of terms.  --Lambiam 15:26, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think making an etymology section for an example is very useful. What I meant was; when I add an example, let's say the verb йылӄат, and I "conjugate" it in an example. Should I then divide the morphemes with a (-) = ты-йылӄат-ык, highlight the morpheme I'm defining = тыйылӄатык or just leave it as тыйылӄатык? e.g something like т- Millerutt (talk)

If Wiktionary were a dictionary of morphemes, I would just embolden the morpheme I was defining. I have a similar issue with Pali, which forms 'compound words' with the same freedom as English forms noun stacks. I've been treating most of these compound words as sequences of words, so I highlight the relevant component. I don't introduce punctuation to separate the elements. Often the final vowel of one element combines with the initial vowel of the next, and renderers often dictate that emboldening has to apply to entire orthographic syllables. I follow the principle of emboldening all the characters used to represent the lemma, so the emboldening bleeds into adjacent words/morphemes. This is most obvious when a consonant or vowel is emboldened in the non-Roman text but not in the transliteration. No-one's complained to me yet.

Pali is also heavily inflected, but I treat the inflection as part of the word. -- RichardW57m (talk) 14:13, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

only: conjunction

Can somebody please offer an example for the first meaning of the conjunction but --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:14, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

ingratiate: bring oneself into favour with someone

bring into? bring in does not seem to match the meaning of "bring oneself into favour with someone" --Backinstadiums (talk) 14:58, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

That's because it doesn't use that idiom. It's sense 5 at bring: "to persuade; to induce; to draw; to lead; to guide" with into. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: Could you add such a sentence as an example in the fifth sense? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

entrée: smaller dish served before the main course of a meal.

Does here the comparative smaller refer to the main course? --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:14, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

In English you can say something like “The beautiful island of Amorgos is one of the lesser known Greek islands” and leave it to the reader’s imagination to what norm the level of notability is being compared. There are so many small Greek islands that actually most of them belong to the “lesser known” ones. Don’t be disappointed if your non-US entrée is a somewhat smallish portion. If you read this as in comparison to the size of the main course you are not off the mark, but the comparative may nevertheless be read as a null comparative.  --Lambiam 23:17, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thanks. Then there are terms like older, meaning elderly, so that one cannot drop their guard. --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

View Word List?

Is there any way to view a list of words, akin to how one navigates through an ink-and-paper dictionary? Kiwinanday (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

See Category:English lemmas and scroll down to the big list, if that helps. (For other languages, replace "English" in the page name with the name of the language you want.) — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 21:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

For words in all languages combined, you can use Special:PrefixIndex.  --Lambiam 22:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

sear: To char, scorch, or burn the surface of (something) with a hot instrument.

Does " with a hot instrument" apply to the whole first meaning (char, scorch included), or just to burn? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:02, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

your note dated the 17th last (archaic usage)

What is archaic is merely its postpositive usage, am I wrong? --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

I think no one would use, in this sense, “the last 17th”. (I wonder if people back then also thought that “the 1st last” sounds kinda funny.)  --Lambiam 21:15, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam: I'd use it as "last Monday/month/week" etc, that is meaning "the previous... the ... before" --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:49, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

But ult. is used more often (according to my sister who used to be a shorthand typist). SemperBlotto (talk) 09:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Something like "the last Friday the 13th was in July" is possible. "The last 17th" does not sound plausible to me, if only because there are much better-sounding alternatives like "the 17th of this/last month". Equinox ◑ 13:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

gro: Shortening of gross, perhaps via grody.

Is such a phrasing technically correct/possible? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:50, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I would say that doesn't seem to make sense. Equinox ◑ 13:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

more/less than

Obama’s Arms-Export Tally More than Doubles Bush’s.

How is "more than (doubles) " analyzed in the above sentence? --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

'nuff said but not enough said?

Is there any reason for it? --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

everyway

Can the second meaning, in every direction, be expressed with the word "way" itself, perhaps "(in) every way"? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:38, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Equinox ◑ 13:25, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: thanks. Is the prep in optional, "(in) every way"? Secondly I think prosody is partly responsible for the creation of everyway --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:53, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It depends on the sentence, really. "I looked every way but saw nothing" is fine, for example, and does not use "in". Equinox ◑ 21:52, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

An aside: I am being prescriptive here (and perhaps this is more British than American English), but personally (i) I would never use "everyway" as a single word -- that's not in my vocabulary -- and (ii) I would only use "everyday" as an adjective ("this is an everyday problem that happens all the time") and never as an adverb ("it happens everyday"). I found it quite painful when a local supermarket introduced a big slogan banner along the lines of "better value everyday" (whereas "better everyday value" would be fine, but different in meaning). Equinox ◑ 21:52, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

county office

What does "county office" mean in the second meaning of courthouse? According to wikipedia, "Home to the regional county government", but it doesn't show the equivalent terms in other languages, as it does for the first meaning --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Is this enough w:New_York_County_Courthouse :) Backinstadiums? Pierpao (talk) 08:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

although

He told me not to do it, although I did it. Is such a sentence grammatical for although meaning but, as the usage note insinuates? --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

To me, there's a faintly different suggestion of time. "He told me not to do it, but I did it (anyway)" = FIRST he told me not to, and THEN I did it. "He told me not to do it, although I did it [had done it?]" = possibly more suggestive that I had already done it before I was told. I do not think "he told me not to do it although I did it" is acceptable if you are saying that you did the thing you were previously told not to do. Equinox ◑ 21:48, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: I think so too, but wasn't sure whether my native Spanish was interfering --Backinstadiums (talk) 22:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

How to get back in Wiktionary's good graces?

I have suffered the ignominy of being barred from contributing, despite the fact that I have made many contributions in the past, and am prepared to make a great many more in the future. Is there any way I can regain "acceptance" status?

Scott MacStravic (SCotch35@gmail.com

Follow the rules. Equinox ◑ 03:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Request for template code

I know this is the information desk but I do not find a page for requests to administrators. Some sysop could please copy the Template:fa-Arab code in my sandbox beetween nowiki? I need for it wiktionary. And, please copy the history too. Thanks Pierpao (talk) 08:01, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

It is not clear where your code is located. Can you provide the precise location? And to where do you want it copied? Is there a reason you cannot do the copying yourself?  --Lambiam 09:29, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. The code is deleted. I'm talking about the Template:fa-Arab. Only and admin can copy it. A good destination is User:Pierpao/fa-Arab. Thanks a lot. RegardsPierpao (talk) 11:49, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Pierpao It's not possible to copy the history without losing the history of the original page, which seems undesirable. Are you ok with just the latest revision? —Rua (mew) 11:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes thank Rua. For the "history copy" I mean a plain text copy like this to put in the template talk, for reference, respect to editors and copyright issues (although it is only a template, likely a non creative work) -- Pierpao (talk) 04:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

@Pierpao I've copied the last revision to your page, and placed a plaintext copy of the history on your sandbox page. —Rua (mew) 09:16, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

That is, User:Pierpao/Sandbox1.  --Lambiam 18:35, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Stressing the schwa

The language I'm currently working on is Alutor. Many linguists and the wikipedia page claim that the schwa cannot be stressed in the language. This seems reasonable, but there's a problem. Some words are entirely schwa-based e.g rəttərət and wətwət. My question is, where would the stress be in these words if the schwa can never be stressed? -Millerutt (talk) 16:25, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

In Dutch the schwa can be stressed: in de when the word (the non-neuter definite article) is stressed – which makes it mean something like “the most eminent” – and in the phrase je van het, in which the schwa in je is stressed. Here on Wiktionary that schwa is indeed denoted as stressed, which appears entirely reasonable to me. I have not met a Dutch speaker who thinks this is a different phoneme, although to my untrained ears it is indistinguishable from a higher [ʏ̈] (a centralized [ʏ]). In any case, I think that the unstressability of the schwa is one of those dogmas that is best ignored when they get in the way.  --Lambiam 22:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam Slovene also most definitely has stressed schwas, like in cvesti. Unlike in Dutch, there is no vowel it could be confused with. —Rua (mew) 09:18, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I did figure it out in the end, just a bunch of stuff with open and closed syllables _-_Millerutt (talk) 00:21, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

drive places

What does "Drive somebody places" mean? is places here an adverb? --Backinstadiums (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it functions as an adverb. You can interpret this as if the preposition “to” was omitted: “he drives me [to] places”, analogously to how “home” can mean “to home”. You can also “go places”, in the literal sense – this has also an idiomatic, figurative sense: go places.  --Lambiam 22:40, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin mistake - nomen gentile

With almost 700 entries, nomen gentile is one of the most wanted page, but it is not correct. The right expression is nomen gentilicium (gentile name) that means name of families. Nomen is nominative, gentilicium is plural genitive. Gentile is dative or ablative, that makes it a non sense and without reference construction . I think we need a bot to correct it. -- Pierpao (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

? Of what word is gentilicium the plural genitive? Nomen gentile is a synonym of nomen gentilicium. Some examples of use: [1], [2], [3].  --Lambiam 08:40, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

You are right Lambiam gentilicium is nominative. My wish were only to help, sorry. Moreover I find Nomen gentile a strange construct, I do not understand if gentile is english or latin, maybe we could consider Nomen gentile an english locution. If you have an answer I'll be happy to write a page.--Pierpao (talk) 10:52, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin gentilis is an adjective, so it agrees in case and number with the noun it modifies, nomen. I see no reason why it should be genitive- AFAIK only nouns do that. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Missing- -'er/-ers

I have long noticed a strange absence of the suffixes "-er" and "-ers" in the usual lists of verbs, whereas the plurals, present and past particles thereof are all but invariably included. If one can "spring" someone or something, and "springs" them often, while being engaged in "springing", and having "springed" (sprung) someone/something, why is there no recognition of that person as a "springer"?

Scott MacStravic (SCotch35@gmail.com)

Because springs, springing, sprang, sprung are forms of the verb (used with different persons: I, you, he etc.; or different grammatical tenses). Springer is not a form of the verb. It is a word derived from the verb. It may be included under a Derived terms heading. Equinox ◑ 19:52, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Traditionally there is a distinction between "inflectional" and "derivational" suffixes- only the former are shown in headwords. Some may see this as arbitrary. DTLHS (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't see why "X-er" (someone who does X) is worthy of the same line as the verb inflections. We know the Latin, French, German etc. verb tables that explain "I eat, you eat, he eats, she eats..." why would "an eater" be there? Any derivational form like "eatable", "eater", "eatworthy?" should never be on that primary verb line because it isn't a verb form. Equinox ◑ 02:48, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

The distinction makes sense for most Indo-European languages, but when you get into agglutinative/polysynthetic languages like Finnish, Turkish, Korean, Japanese, and most North American Indian languages it gets really, really, really complicated...Chuck Entz (talk) 02:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Templates

So here I am making ("suffering from") Alyutor templates, and everything worked just fine until it suddently started absorbing everything beneath it. My question is how can/do I make a table with a nice little headline (or whatever it's called) with a drop-button. Current template I'm working on Template:alr-decl-pronoun. Signed Millerutt (talk) 23:05, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I think your problem was having <div>s without corresponding </div>s. That mean that the </div>s below the template used by the system to format the page were interpreted by the browser as closing the <div></div> blocks opened by the template. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:35, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, that was indeed the problem. But another question, how can I fit the table into the "header" without it stretching over the entire screen? Millerutt (talk)

You can add something like style="width: 24em;" to the <div class="NavHead"> tag.  --Lambiam 10:33, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

affix pages

Do pages containing a list of affixes (prefixes/suffixes) exist here on Wikitionary?

We have categories by language, such as, for English, Category:English prefixes and Category:English suffixes.  --Lambiam 22:14, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Add quotations to main definition or alternative form?

I want to add older quotations to heliocentrism; however, they're old enough that they use the full form heliocentricism. To which page should I add quotations that spell it the old way? —Piparsveinn (talk) 16:35, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Add them to heliocentricism. DTLHS (talk) 16:36, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Where to gather recent etymological research?

If the OED lacks etymological information about an English word (says it's "of obscure origins" or similar), I give up looking. But I assume there is ongoing scholarly work in etymology. What sources and search terms can help me find this kind of research?

One thing you can do is to go to Google Scholar and search for “etymology” plus the word in question.  --Lambiam 20:15, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Quoting a work in an anthology or similar

At a pound to a penny the first quotation is from a short story in an anthology of short stories and poems, and this appears to be the only place it was published. I've used the "chapter" parameter of the {{quote-book}} template to indicate the title of the story being quoted an the "title" parameter for the name of the anthology. Is this correct? If one work in a larger collection itself has chapters, how would this be noted? Thryduulf (talk) 10:52, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

"Chaptered" works within a collection are not very normal, are they? I can't think of an example I've seen. However, the documentation says that the chapter can basically be free text (they give "Introduction" as an example) so you could probably come up with a meaningful schema, calling it "3.2" or "LittleRedRidingHood.2" or something. I doubt that our templates are as rigorous as the likes of APA citations (but they are a good start for the future). Equinox ◑ 10:57, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm sure I've seen it in at least one science fiction anthology, but although I can picture where I was when reading it (and from that deduce it was almost certainly the mid-1990s) I can't remember the specific work. I did also read an e-book that was a collection of H.G. Wells novels, all with chapters - but in that case I'd just cite the individually published novels not the collection. It's not something I need for the entry in question though. Thryduulf (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Common term for "Osteolith"

A common generic term (used by most lay people) associated with the word "osteolith(s)" is/are bone spur(s).

I think these terms reference different things.  --Lambiam 15:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Point me the way to go ... talk about list categories?

Accidentally came upon Category:zh:Mathematics. Cool. That led me to Category:zh:List of topics. Very cool. Thus to Category:zh:Computing. 很酷酷的!

But then tried to wander around from Category:List of topics which also allows you to jump off into language-specific lists, e.g. but when I click on zh in the big table, the bottom of the resulting page does not have Category:zh:List of topics. Note that listing starts with 'Z'

Where would Category:zh:List of topics be added, so that one can get to the 'zh' language lists? It's rather confusing trying to see where. Are there instructions or a map for guidance somewhere? Shenme (talk) 03:55, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

It's far from obvious, but the category is sorted by the names of the languages, not by the language codes: "zh" (Chinese) is between "cic" (Chickasaw) and "cpi" (Chinese Pidgin English). Chuck Entz (talk) 04:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)