Wiktionary:Requests for verification/Italic
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This page is for entries in any Italic language, i.e. Latin, its sister languages (Oscan, Faliscan, etc.), or any Romance language (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, Catalan, etc.).
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Overview: This page is for disputing the existence of terms or senses. It is for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets the attestation criterion as specified in Criteria for inclusion, usually by providing citations from three durably archived sources. Requests for deletion based on the claim that the term or sense is nonidiomatic or “sum of parts” should be posted to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion. Requests to confirm that a certain etymology is correct should go in the Etymology scriptorium, and requests to confirm pronunciation is correct should go in the Tea Room.
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August 2020
[edit]French. Not familiar with this. PUC – 10:46, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
- I see a few uses, sometimes hyphenated, but (grammatically) as a singular: [1], [2], [3], [4] (the last one is a mention). In the following case I think it means a head of white hair, so the sense of a white-haired person may be metonymical: [5]. --Lambiam 17:22, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Needs citations in the appropriate place. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 14:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- The common French expression for silver hair is "poivre et sel" but it's only used as an adjective, not a noun, and neither is "cheveux blancs" used as a noun to designate a white-haired person. 193.54.167.164 14:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Des cheveux poivre et sel (wfw. "pepper and salt hair") means mixed black and white hair, often appearing grey. All-white hair is des cheveux blancs and donner des cheveux blancs à quelqu'un (wfw. "give someone white hair") approximately means "endlessly get on someone's nerves". — Tonymec (talk) 08:00, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- The common French expression for silver hair is "poivre et sel" but it's only used as an adjective, not a noun, and neither is "cheveux blancs" used as a noun to designate a white-haired person. 193.54.167.164 14:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
February 2021
[edit]French. Old entry created by me, apparently unattestable. PUC – 11:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
@PUC Not sure what qualifies as attestation, but this is a very common expression. There are even more senses than just the softening of an order. "je passe un coup chez le dentiste" (rapidement), "un coup il me croit, un coup il me croit plus" (tantôt... tantôt),... Lots of hits on Google. Sitaron (talk) 23:54, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
If it's real, we need citations. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 14:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
fr:coup sense 12 says it is used as a synonym of "fois" (like here) but the first two (of three) examples given there belong to a more usual (less familiar) level of language than here. The third example, though, is exactly the colloquial use mentioned here, and it is a quotation from a well-known French author: J’ai eu du chagrin de savoir que ton neveu s’était fait refuser aux postes encore un coup. — (Marcel Aymé, La jument verte, Gallimard, 1933, réédition Le Livre de Poche, page 25). — OTOH as a native French speaker I confirm that je passe un coup chez le dentiste or un coup il me croit, un coup il me croit plus do exist, as part of familiar spoken French; a tiny wee bit less familiar (more "standard") would be je passe en vitesse chez le dentiste and tantôt il me croit, tantôt il ne me croit plus. — Tonymec (talk) 19:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @-sche Haute Garonne speaker talking:
- For 'modal' use, common places which first come to mind are these two imperatives:
- "pète un coup" (lit:"fart at once/a little" = "relax")
- "respire un coup" ("take a deep breath"; "will you please calm down")
- used in advices with the underlying "un coup (au moins) avant de..." ("once (at least) before...") and, as for me, often by stressed out people to stressed out people, hence the "will you please...". I guess the current def does quite the job, though as being derivative of the temporal use I feel it should be assigned second place.
- For 'modal' use, common places which first come to mind are these two imperatives:
- Saumache (talk) 06:28, 8 July 2025 (UTC)
P.S. I took the liberty of adding the example above from fr.wikt at un coup. Passe un coup le sel! instead of Passe le sel, s'il te plaît. is very familiar but it is used in colloquial spoken French. — Tonymec (talk) 20:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Tonymec: Thanks for adding sense 2 and its accompanying quotation. I also found some discussion related to sense 1 at w:fr:Français de Nouvelle-Calédonie#Un coup. Using "un coup" with an order may be especially common in that particular dialect, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist in metropolitan French or other dialects. But what we really need is a durably archived example of such usage. Have you been able to find any? 70.172.194.25 20:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @70.172.194.25: A durably archived example ? I dont have any, and it might be hard, considering that it is used mostly in spoken rather than written or literary language. Myself, I'm not a New-Caledonian but a Belgian and I would have thought it especially frequent in the "spoken dialect" of Paris but known to different degrees by radiation in most or all of the French language areas. — Tonymec (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Tonymec: Would you say that the use of "un coup" in any of these would count as sense 1? [6] [7] [8]. The problem is that these are all articles by one author in one paper (from Mauritius). And there's also this article on Mauritian French which uses it quite heavily (although we can't cite the latter, because they're technically mentions instead of uses). My methodology to find these was to search for "moi un coup le/la" on Google, hoping that the inclusion of "moi" would tilt the results towards imperatives like "dis-moi", etc., and the inclusion of "le/la" would get adverbial uses of "un coup" instead of cases where "coup" is just acting as a regular noun. But there actually aren't many results. I'm not going out of my way to search for French spoken on remote islands, it's just what seems to pop up when looking for this for whatever reason.
- If this is commonly used in Parisian France, wouldn't it be possible to find a song, TV show, magazine, or something that uses this? 70.172.194.25 08:57, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- @70.172.194.25: I would count "un coup" as sense 1 if it can be replaced by "s'il te plaît" at the end of the sentence with no change of meaning; I would label it as "familiar" or "colloquial" and also "spoken language". Finding it in a song or magazine, I don't think so. In a TV show or even in a cinema film, I'd say maybe, if the characters are using colloquial spoken language. Teenager characters, maybe. But I wouldn't bet my head on it being easily findable.
- In sense 2 "un coup" can be replaced by "une fois" at the same place in the sentence and I copied a quotation from fr.wikt about that sense. It is also "familiar" or "colloquial" but it has been found at least once in published text. — Tonymec (talk) 02:33, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- @70.172.194.25: Maybe in some dictionary, but recent dictionaries might be copy-protected (in France, until the 31st of December following the last living author's death plus 70 years) and older ones might be unaware of such a recent evolution in the language. I don't know how far we can make use of the French "exceptions to author's rights" allowing "short citations for use as example or illustration" and "extracts for information" (see fr:w:Droit d'auteur#Exceptions au droit d’auteur with footnotes sending back to the Berne Convention).
- In addition, "moral rights" are in France part of intellectual property rights; they are perpetual and can neither be relinquished nor given over, even by testament ("perpétuel, inaliénable et imprescriptible"): the author, and after him his "natural heirs", cannot avoid exercising them. — Tonymec (talk) 22:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- @70.172.194.25: A durably archived example ? I dont have any, and it might be hard, considering that it is used mostly in spoken rather than written or literary language. Myself, I'm not a New-Caledonian but a Belgian and I would have thought it especially frequent in the "spoken dialect" of Paris but known to different degrees by radiation in most or all of the French language areas. — Tonymec (talk) 20:49, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- If this were very common colloquial French, I would expect to see more Google results than I do; nonetheless, I do find some hits for "toi un coup le|la", especially on Twitter:
- Mate-toi un coup le best of de Roger Federer sur YouTube, tu vas capter l'idée !
- Bahaha ce tweet de boomer par contre c'est très grave mdrr détend toi un coup la musique évolue et le bon reste. Et puis si ça ne te touche libre à toi de ne pas écouter plutôt que de cracher sans avoir jamais écouté 🤷♀️
- Ptdr vazi toi un coup la suisse un coup portugal un coup Turquie un coup L.A et la Aix-en-Provence 😭 décide toi fdp
- Retournes au #CasBinet et soulages toi un coup la Sophie !
- @reminotta et bois toi un coup le couz ❤.
- Mouille toi un coup la nuque.
- @PUC, Tonymec, can you check whether those are using either of the relevant/RFVed (adverbial) senses of un coup? Colloquial language would be precisely the kind of thing that this vote (which happened after this RFV was started) allowed people to discuss using online cites for... and there are also the cites of "moi un coup le" mentioned above... - -sche (discuss) 16:18, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- Hm. In the above examples, "un coup" seems to me like a colloquial synonym of "une fois" but they could also be regiolectic (e.g. colloquial Paris French vs. colloquial Brussels French — I'm Belgian). I would analyze the personal pronoun as a complement or sometimes appositional subject of the verb and "un coup" as a circumstantial complement relating to the whole verbal syntagm and expressing semelfactivity (English "once", "for once" or similar):
- Have a look (wfw. look for yourself) for once at the best of Roger Federer on YouTube, you'll grasp the idea !
- [détends-toiDIR OBJ] ← [un coup], [la musique évolue]
- ParTerreDeRire vas-y, toiSUBJ APPOS, [un coup la Suisse] [un coup Portugal] [un coup Turquie] — ROFL, go ahead, you: one time Switzerland, one time Portugal, one time Turkey… (Even here, I would analyze "un coup" as a frozen adverbial idiom.)
- [soulage-toiDIR OBJ] ← [un coup], [la SophieSUBJ APPOS] — Sophie, relax (for once) !
- [mouille-toi [la nuque]] ← [un coup] (hard to translate) [wetIMPERATIVE 2 P S to_you [the nape]] [for_once]. (The idiomatic meaning escapes me.)
- @-sche Does this answer your question ? — Tonymec (talk) 19:34, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- If they mean une fois, do you think they demonstrate the existence of sense 2 of un coup (adverbial), or do you think they are better viewed as sense 7 of coup (noun)? - -sche (discuss) 20:05, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- I find it hard to tell apart coup 7, un coup 1 and un coup 2. In Belgian French, une fois (possibly from Dutch eens) is often used colloquially to soften an imperative: fr_BE: Viens une fois ici, nl_NL: Kom eens hier (wfw. "Come once here"), nl_BE: Kom 'ne keer hier, en: Would you mind coming here ? etc. — Note the only example at coup 7 where Encore un coup, which is not obviously joined to anything else in the sentence, is translated by the adverbial clause Once again, — Tonymec (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm, OK. I will wait to hear what PUC or other French-speaking editors think, but I wonder if we could combine un coup senses 1 and 2 like this and then consider them cited by the online cites (and the one book cite) ... or alternatively, redirect un coup to coup and add a usage note to coup about the colloquial use of coup sense 7 to soften requests, if that (coup sense 7 rather than un coup) is how people prefer to view these cites ... - -sche (discuss) 22:45, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- I find it hard to tell apart coup 7, un coup 1 and un coup 2. In Belgian French, une fois (possibly from Dutch eens) is often used colloquially to soften an imperative: fr_BE: Viens une fois ici, nl_NL: Kom eens hier (wfw. "Come once here"), nl_BE: Kom 'ne keer hier, en: Would you mind coming here ? etc. — Note the only example at coup 7 where Encore un coup, which is not obviously joined to anything else in the sentence, is translated by the adverbial clause Once again, — Tonymec (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- If they mean une fois, do you think they demonstrate the existence of sense 2 of un coup (adverbial), or do you think they are better viewed as sense 7 of coup (noun)? - -sche (discuss) 20:05, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
- Hm. In the above examples, "un coup" seems to me like a colloquial synonym of "une fois" but they could also be regiolectic (e.g. colloquial Paris French vs. colloquial Brussels French — I'm Belgian). I would analyze the personal pronoun as a complement or sometimes appositional subject of the verb and "un coup" as a circumstantial complement relating to the whole verbal syntagm and expressing semelfactivity (English "once", "for once" or similar):
May 2021
[edit]Romanian. Rfv-sense "(vulgar, slang) extraordinary, super, excellent". Removed by IP (diff) with the comment "never heard it being used as an adjective, ever; add it back ONLY with a reference". — surjection ⟨??⟩ 20:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Robbie SWE, Bogdan: I found nothing. I'm also not familiar with this use. Fytcha (talk) 05:20, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- It's definitely a real slang use, a synonym for pizdos. It's hard to find slang usage online, since it's a colloquial use (and when I google this word, I get only porn sites), but here's one proof of usage: "spectacol pizdă". Bogdan (talk) 07:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- I found it used as an adverb in a song: "Suntem tot ceea ce crezi tu că sună foarte pizdă". Catlop (talk) 12:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
I tried searching Twitter for spectacol pizd and mašīna pizda, but the only relevant hit I found, "@Deivo_M mm. vēl @naurisfox95 ktko pisās negribot uz egli nākt. edijs ar mby netiks, jo viņam mašīna pizda! ;/", seems to have the opposite meaning, something negative...? I did, however, find two uses of foarte pizdă: "oricum, foarte pizda!", "Seesmic Look e totusi confusing ca interfata :-)). Desi arata foarte pizda pe display mare. Oare pe unul de 2m cum ar arata? :-))" User:Bogdan, can you check if these are the right sense? And perhaps searching genius.com would yield more songs using this? - -sche (discuss) 16:37, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
June 2021
[edit]Latin. Tagged by 2003:DE:3728:BF61:3CEF:6BEC:3439:FB55 on 7 June, not listed:
- “for masc. gender.
- L&S has "subst.: vŏlantes, ĭum, comm., the birds", but some other dicts only have f. (logeion -> LaNe: "subst. volantēs, ium en um f (poët.; postklass.)", Georges: "subst., volantēs, ium, f. (sc. bestiae)") and sometimes L&S has guesses, unattested information.”
J3133 (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Obviously, it could be masculine or feminine when used as a substantive, depending on the context: (vermes) volantes or aves (volantes). Maybe all attestations happen to refer to feminine animal nouns (aves, columbae) and not to for instance culices or passeres. Do we need such attestations to verify the inherent gender ambivalence? An entirely different issue is whether we should list such obvious nominalizations at all; we do not list a noun powerful, even though its use as a noun is fairly common;[9] and we also do not list an (attestable[10]) noun sense for flagellantes. --Lambiam 11:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
(Notifying GianWiki, Metaknowledge, SemperBlotto, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia): Created by User:SemperBlotto, supposedly an adjective meaning "glove" in a relational/attributive sense. Unlikely to be correct as an adjective ending in -a, and not in any dictionary I can find. Benwing2 (talk) 04:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- I can't really find any dictionary supporting the existence of an adjective like guantario, except this, which I believe might've been used as a reference for the Wiktionary entry. There are a couple of usage examples I can find online – either as an adjective or as a noun (an alternative form of guantaio (“glovemaker”)) – but that's all. — GianWiki (talk) 12:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- I think it's more likely that wordsense pulled it from Wiktionary. The entry has been around for 7 years. – Jberkel 12:33, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- Treccani seems to use it (industria guantaria). Also in Google books: from 1937 (industria guantaria), from 1939 (industria guantaria, attività guantaria, produzione guantaria). As for guantario, there's this book (problema guantario), from 2006 (maestro guantario), from 1959 (settore guantario). - Sarilho1 (talk) 15:54, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
August 2021
[edit]French. The French Wiktionary entry lists one of the meanings of abeillage as "Élevage des abeilles", i.e. the raising of bees, or beekeeping. However, all of the uses I found online were referring to the other historical senses of the word. If this sense is kept, it should at least perhaps be tagged as rare because it seems the more common translations for beekeeping are apiculture or a multi-word phrase like "élevage des abeilles", "industrie abeillère". 70.175.192.217 18:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Can somebody confirm the gender? This and also Lagopus and λαγώπους give the gender as feminine (the latter offering both masculine and feminine). However, λαγώς and πούς are both masculine, so I can't see how the compound could possibly be feminine. If it really is, something needs to be added to the etymologies to say how this counterintuitive gender has happened. --Doric Loon (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- As for Lagopus zoologists treat it as being feminine, as can be seen by the species epithets of two of the three species, the other one not being helpful. Lewis and Short asserts Latin lagopus as being feminine. DCDuring (talk) 22:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ancient Greek λαγώπους (lagṓpous) is a nominalization of an adjective meaning hare-footed; compare the adjectives ὀκτώπους (oktṓpous, “eight-footed”) and ἐρυθρόπους (eruthrópous, “red-footed”). For these adjectives, the masculine and feminine forms are the same. The gender of a nominalization will usually be determined on semantic grounds; if seen as a shortening of ὄρνις λαγώπους (órnis lagṓpous, literally “hare-footed bird”), it will inherit the gender of ὄρνις – and thus still can go either way. --Lambiam 11:27, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- The Oxford Latin Dictionary agrees that lagōpūs (“ptarmigan”) is feminine. The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek says that λαγώπους (lagṓpous, “ptarmigan, white partridge”) is masculine (the neuter λαγώπουν (lagṓpoun) is also substantivized and refers to some sort of clover or other trefoil). I'm pretty sure when LSJ says "λαγώ-πους, ποδος, ὁ, ἡ" it means that as an adjective the masculine and feminine have the same form. However, it doesn't look like this word is ever actually used as an adjective meaning "hare-footed". It's only ever used as a masculine noun meaning "ptarmigan, white partridge" and as a neuter noun meaning "clover, trefoil". —Mahāgaja · talk 12:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Dioscorides[11] and Oribasius[12] use non-neuter λαγώπους (lagṓpous) for the clover. The grammatical gender cannot be discerned from the brief mentions (γνώριμος can be feminine), but Pape gives ἡ λαγώπους as translation of Hasenklee (hare’s-foot clover),[13] and Johann Adolf Erdmann Schmidt gives this as translation of Waldhonig,[14] probably not referencing the substance but a type of clover from which honey is obtained. --Lambiam 08:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Lambiam: In your last example, ἡ λαγώπους is actually the translation of Waldhuhn, so it's referring to the bird. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:06, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks for the correction; I overlooked the -xyz entries. It is somewhat unlikely that the Latin writers borrowing lagōpūs from Greek would have assigned it the feminine gender if they were not following a Greek example. --Lambiam 09:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Lambiam: In your last example, ἡ λαγώπους is actually the translation of Waldhuhn, so it's referring to the bird. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:06, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Dioscorides[11] and Oribasius[12] use non-neuter λαγώπους (lagṓpous) for the clover. The grammatical gender cannot be discerned from the brief mentions (γνώριμος can be feminine), but Pape gives ἡ λαγώπους as translation of Hasenklee (hare’s-foot clover),[13] and Johann Adolf Erdmann Schmidt gives this as translation of Waldhonig,[14] probably not referencing the substance but a type of clover from which honey is obtained. --Lambiam 08:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- The Oxford Latin Dictionary agrees that lagōpūs (“ptarmigan”) is feminine. The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek says that λαγώπους (lagṓpous, “ptarmigan, white partridge”) is masculine (the neuter λαγώπουν (lagṓpoun) is also substantivized and refers to some sort of clover or other trefoil). I'm pretty sure when LSJ says "λαγώ-πους, ποδος, ὁ, ἡ" it means that as an adjective the masculine and feminine have the same form. However, it doesn't look like this word is ever actually used as an adjective meaning "hare-footed". It's only ever used as a masculine noun meaning "ptarmigan, white partridge" and as a neuter noun meaning "clover, trefoil". —Mahāgaja · talk 12:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Ancient Greek λαγώπους (lagṓpous) is a nominalization of an adjective meaning hare-footed; compare the adjectives ὀκτώπους (oktṓpous, “eight-footed”) and ἐρυθρόπους (eruthrópous, “red-footed”). For these adjectives, the masculine and feminine forms are the same. The gender of a nominalization will usually be determined on semantic grounds; if seen as a shortening of ὄρνις λαγώπους (órnis lagṓpous, literally “hare-footed bird”), it will inherit the gender of ὄρνις – and thus still can go either way. --Lambiam 11:27, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
- Well, there's also the possibility, that the Latin gender isn't attested, but just assumed on whatever grounds. If that's the case, there maybe should be a usage note explaining the situation and the assumption.
- In Latin dictionaries it's:
- L&S: lăgōpūs, ŏdis, f. - 1. bird, 2. herb
- Gaffiot: lăgōpūs, odis, f. - 1. bird, 2. plant
- Georges: lagōpūs, podis, m. u. f. - 1. m. bird, 2. f. plant
- So they agree, that the herb/plant is feminine. As for sense bird, all three reference works refer to Plinius: Plin. 10, 133 (Plin. 10, 48, 68, § 133). That is, according to edition:
- LacusCurtius: "capitur circa Alpes etiam, ubi et phalacrocoraces, avis Baliarium insularum peculiaris, sicut Alpium pyrrhocorax, luteo rostro niger, et praecipua sapore lagopus. pedes leporino villo nomen hoc dedere cetero candidae, columbarum magnitudine."
- Carolus Mayhoff, 1875: "iam et in Gallia Hispaniaque capitur et per Alpes etiam, ubi et phalacrocoraces, avis Baliarium insularum peculiaris, sicut Alpium pyrrhocorax luteo rostro niger et praecipua sapore lagopus. pedes leporino villo nomen hoc dedere cetero candidae, columbarum magnitudine."
- transl. John Bostock & H. T. Riley, 1855: "It was formerly reckoned among the rare birds, but at the present day it is found in Gallia, Spain, and in the Alps even; which is also the case with the phalacrocorax, a bird peculiar to the Balearic Isles, as the pyrrhocorax, a black bird with a yellow bill, is to the Alps, and the lagopus, which is esteemed for its excellent flavour. This last bird derives its name from its feet, which are covered as it were, with the fur of a hare, the rest of the body being white, and the size of a pigeon." ["last bird" in nominative isn't in the Latin.]
- --16:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
September 2021
[edit]Latin. Can this form, alleged to be a genitive plural of the Latin adjective memor, be attested, or are we dealing with a so-called non-i-stem variant? --Lambiam 00:52, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- Template:la-decl-3rd-1E has been retired to a template farm upstate, but I suspect this was the culprit, leading to an erroneous auto-generated entry. @Benwing2 --Lambiam 01:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- A&G mentions the ablative singular of it. --Myrelia (talk) 06:50, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- Might it be that A&G is mistaken: [15]? For some uses of the ablative memore, see [16], [17], and [18]. --Lambiam 10:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
- That looks like Medieval Latin or Anglo-Latin. Georges: "Abl. Sing. bl. memori" = Ablativ Singular bloß memori = ablative singular is only memori. --Myrelia (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- In Wiktionary, Medieval Latin is Latin. So it seems both forms of the ablative can be attested, but only one may be Classical. Still, what about memorium – can this form be attested? --Lambiam 08:10, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
- ML. is Latin, but there should be a qualifier/note.
As for gen. pl.: Can the other, memorum, be attested? Or is it just an assumption, a form generated by an inflection template? Maybe it can by: "hunc crebro ungula pulsu incita nec domini memorum proculcat equorum, Verg. Aen. 12, 533"? --Myrelia (talk) 09:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
- ML. is Latin, but there should be a qualifier/note.
- In Wiktionary, Medieval Latin is Latin. So it seems both forms of the ablative can be attested, but only one may be Classical. Still, what about memorium – can this form be attested? --Lambiam 08:10, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
- That looks like Medieval Latin or Anglo-Latin. Georges: "Abl. Sing. bl. memori" = Ablativ Singular bloß memori = ablative singular is only memori. --Myrelia (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- Might it be that A&G is mistaken: [15]? For some uses of the ablative memore, see [16], [17], and [18]. --Lambiam 10:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
- A&G mentions the ablative singular of it. --Myrelia (talk) 06:50, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- I can find a few instances but I'm not sure they're this. It seems like memorum is more common...? in which case the template in memor needs to be corrected, AFAICT... - -sche (discuss) 20:21, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
December 2021
[edit]- Discussion moved from WT:RFDN.
(French) RFD sense of the fictional character: "One of the Three Musketeers." It already says this in the etymology, and IMO that's enough if it's a rare male given name derived from the book. This RFD goes along with the RFD on English Aramis. Note the inconsistency also; we have Aramis as English, Porthos as French, and no entry for Athos. PseudoSkull (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - Dentonius (my politics | talk) 10:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Send to WT:RFVN and check regarding WT:CFI#Fictional universes? --21:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC) — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:de:373f:4037:3c6c:85b5:850a:bea0 (talk).
- Needs figurative use. Ultimateria (talk) 20:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Athos, Porthos, and Aramis are not given names; they are family names, patronyms. So is d’Artagnan. —Jerome Potts (talk) 21:33, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Failed — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 09:16, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
January 2022
[edit]Rfv-sense "neighbour". Is this restricted to the biblical sense of neighbour (“a fellow human being”), or is it also used for the literal sense of "person living on adjacent land/house/apartment"?__Gamren (talk) 07:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t think this is specifically biblical. In the Vulgate this translates ὁ πλησίον (ho plēsíon) (“one’s neighbour”) in the Septuagint, a nominalized adverb derived from the adjective πλησίος (plēsíos) meaning near, neighbouring. Latin has the feature of zero-derivation nominalization of adjectives,[19] so perhaps Jerome simply used the nearest Latin equivalent of the Greek adjective as a noun. (Jerome could instead have used vīcīnus (neighbour), also a nominalization of an adjective; we can only guess why he did not do so.) IMO there is hardly a reason to list this separately under the PoS “Noun”. When used as a noun, the term has a spectrum of meanings depending on the different senses of closeness, including “someone living nearby”, but is more likely to mean “next of kin”. --Lambiam 14:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
February 2022
[edit]Are days of the week capitalized in Middle French? --TongcyDai (talk) 06:46, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
March 2022
[edit]Probably made up and probably belongs in RFV, but oh well. It was in a crappy song Pierdeme El Respeto but not much out there. --Vealhurl (talk) 07:36, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
- Moved to RFV. Thadh (talk) 11:25, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
According to the authoritative text 'Rivet & Smith (1979) The Place Names of Roman Britain' (p315), the Latin name is indeclinable. What is the authority for a previous editor stating that 'Condate' follows a Greek-type' declension. If none, then this declension table should be deleted. — This unsigned comment was added by Avitacum (talk • contribs).
- @Avitacum: I moved this from the English requests page (WT:RFVE) to this one. This, that and the other (talk) 22:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. My mistake! Avitacum (talk) 17:58, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
- But well, could be that gender and/or inflection isn't attested.. --16:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Apparently Pliny used etēsiās once, but the Latinate first declension singular is unattested. It's a plurale tantum. This, that and the other (talk) 09:44, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- I can find google books:"etesia flabra" and Citations:etesia. - -sche (discuss) 20:31, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
April 2022
[edit]Latin. Rfv-sense: perfect passive participle of cādō. This PPP is claimed to be indeclinable, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What's more, dictionaries (including TLL) don't mention a PPP for this verb. A supine stem is given, but given how widely-used this verb is, you'd expect to see some kind of reference to the PPP if it existed. This, that and the other (talk) 12:18, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think the idea is that it only occurs in the compound forms of the impersonal passive construction (where the subject is always neuter singular), as shown in the conjugation table on cado. I just tried to search for an actual quotation exhibiting the use of impersonal PPP casum + auxiliary, but I haven't found one yet.--Urszag (talk) 01:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
Italian: "(usually humorous, sometimes menacing) Said when someone is unwilling to repeat what they have already said.". I created Citations:Paganini non ripete but I'm not sure the quotations actually support the definition given. 98.170.164.88 23:59, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe this? 98.170.164.88 00:19, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- The citations are all correct. Paganini non ripete is a super-common expression, you can find it in every good Italian dictionary, too. Sartma (talk) 06:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- The Goldoni and Consolemania quotations do seem to be using it to express unwillingness to repeat something said. Servi is using it for refusal to perform a musical encore, which is the same as the original story. Chirichelli and Odone are using it to refer to things that cannot be repeated because they are unique, etc., the same as what Paganini originally meant; but repetition of speech is not involved. Barbiera requires more context to understand, but I think also falls into this metaphorical category.
- I'm not disputing that the expression exists with some meaning, but if it's super common hopefully we can find three quotations that are unambiguously using it to refer to refusal to repeat speech. And maybe we should flesh out the non-speech meaning too (something that cannot be repeated because it was improvised, etc.). 98.170.164.88 18:45, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
June 2022
[edit]- Discussion moved from WT:RFDN.
Latin. Described by @Theknightwho as: "Fake participle formed from the fake supine of absentō" (they meant accanō). This, that and the other (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I can find this, but I'm not sure it's relevant. - -sche (discuss) 17:41, 7 July 2025 (UTC)
July 2022
[edit]Created by User:SemperBlotto. Appears to be a nonexistent back-formation based on radioassistenza. Benwing2 (talk) 06:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: It's a real word. Zingarelli has it too. Sartma (talk) 07:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma Thanks. However, we need citations; if it exists, it's rare enough not to be in reverso.net or Google ngrams. Benwing2 (talk) 07:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma All cites in Google Books are from dictionaries. I still think it doesn't exist. Benwing2 (talk) 07:19, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: It is a technical term, so it might not be easy to find, but navigazione radioassistita is something even common people talk about. radioassistere (and servoassistere) are given in all major Italian dictionaries. I'm not interested in any of the fields where those terms might get used more regularly, but still, as a native speaker, I know those words... Reading you writing that they are "nonexistent" is a bit weird. Sartma (talk) 08:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma All cites in Google Books are from dictionaries. I still think it doesn't exist. Benwing2 (talk) 07:19, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma Thanks. However, we need citations; if it exists, it's rare enough not to be in reverso.net or Google ngrams. Benwing2 (talk) 07:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
August 2022
[edit]- Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.
French: Apparently this is the name of a former country in Africa. Probably just used by one author and copied elsewhere. Dunderdool (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Googling it throws up a historic map of Senegal. Is this wolof? Theknightwho (talk) 12:56, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Looks like the country being referred to is the Kingdom of Jolof and its predecessor, the Jolof Empire, which is the same word as Wolof (also Djolof, Yolof, etc.) and which we treat at Wolof#English (sense 3). Although the definition there may be a little misleading, since in the Kingdom period, it was only one of multiple Wolof-speaking states, the others including Waalo and Cayor ([20]). 142.166.21.76 14:03, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Belongs on WT:RFVN, although FWIW this looks very easily citable in French, and might even pass CFI in other languages like German, Italian, and English. 142.166.21.76 13:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
October 2022
[edit]French. See Wiktionary:Tea room/2022/October#French: se donner le mot. If the term cannot be verified as a synonym of passer le mot, it should perhaps be replaced by a redirect to se donner le mot. --Lambiam 16:17, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
Latin. Taken from Gaffiot. Gaffiot, with du Cange, gives one citation, Tertullian Ad nationes 1.9 "abaliud a maiore defenditur", and apart from various scanos on Google Books it seems to be a hapax. But modern editions of Tertullian do not treat this as a word and instead render the passage "si ab aliquo aliud, a maiore defenditur" (e.g. Borleffs 1954). Von Hartel 1890 already comments, "An die Existenz des Wortes abaliud glaubt heute wohl Niemand" ("nobody today believes in the existence of the word abaliud"), and Schneider 1968 gives the emended sentence and labels abaliud a ghost word. I can't find any reliable source disagreeing with this assessment. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 20:10, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- Easily 'attested':
- Tertullianus, Ad nationes [To the nations], lib. 1, cap. 9 – in some editions, e.g. Bibliotheca patrum ecclesiaticorum latinorum selecta. Ad optimorum librorum fidem edita curante E. G. Gersdorf. Vol. IV. Qu. Sept. Flor. Tertulliani opera. Ad optimorum librorum fidem expressa curante E. F. Leopold. Pars I. Libri apologetici., Lipsia, 1839, p. 141:
- Abaliud a maiore defenditur.
- Tertullianus, Ad nationes [To the nations], lib. 1, cap. 9 – in some editions, e.g. Bibliotheca patrum ecclesiaticorum latinorum selecta. Ad optimorum librorum fidem edita curante E. G. Gersdorf. Vol. IV. Qu. Sept. Flor. Tertulliani opera. Ad optimorum librorum fidem expressa curante E. F. Leopold. Pars I. Libri apologetici., Lipsia, 1839, p. 141:
- And also found in dictionaries:
- Add Category:Latin ghost words (done) and a usage note (missing). --Amicus vetus (talk) 10:14, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Amicus vetus: Please re-read my comment above: the modern consensus is that it is not found in Tertullian, it is an error of manuscript interpretation (and not therefore used in actual Latin).
By definition, it cannot be both a ghost word and attested.(Well, it can, but in this case it doesn't seem to have crept into actual usage anywhere, hence my RFV.) —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 10:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Amicus vetus: Please re-read my comment above: the modern consensus is that it is not found in Tertullian, it is an error of manuscript interpretation (and not therefore used in actual Latin).
- I've read your comment carefully. It's found in Tertullianus -- at least in old editions thereof and an example was provided (and it's different from misprints/typos). That it is an error (scribal error in the manuscript, misreading, wrong conjecture or whatever) doesn't change that. Thus the entry is justified, and an explanatory usage note ('it's a mistake/ghostword' etc.) what is lacking. --Amicus vetus (talk) 12:27, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Amicus vetus: I think we're arguing at cross-purposes a bit. My point is that if there was never a word abaliud used by Tertullian or anyone else to mean "on the other hand", then our gloss is entirely spurious and should not be listed as a sense (it can be in the etymology, usage notes, or whatever—from elsewhere on this page some people might prefer this to just be a link to an appendix, I don't care too much either way). The only sense listed should, I think, be "alternative form"/scribal corruption of ab aliud. The fact that it is found in older editions of Tertullian does not support listing it as a sense, which is a matter of how the text is interpreted rather than how it is printed—and it's the sense that's being RFV'd here, since I'm not at RFD requesting the entry itself be deleted. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk)
November 2022
[edit]Transliterated names and surnames in Portuguese
[edit]Recently, I deleted several transliterated Japanese names and surnames created by a single IP that had little evidence to be in use in Portuguese language and looked like simple copies of the English entries. After a message from @Benwing2, I've gave some thought to this approach, so I'm opening this discussion in order reassess if the deleted should be restored or if the remaining unattested terms in Portuguese surnames from Japanese and Portuguese given names from Japanese should be removed as well. - Sarilho1 (talk) 10:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Sarilho1 My sense is that surname entries like this should be kept if they convey some useful info that is specific to the destination language, otherwise deleted. For example, if the surname is common enough to have a fairly fixed pronunciation, and we include that, this counts as "useful info". One example is Fukushima, which has a pronunciation given (maybe because it is also a toponym, and in the news a lot). I would say, on the contrary, that an etymology that is simply copied from the English entry doesn't count as useful info. Basically, we should discourage people from creating entries by just copying the English entry and making automatable changes to get an entry in another language. The intended result of this is that only sufficiently common or well-known surnames from foreign languages (e.g. names of famous Russian composers, in the case of Russian surnames) end up as entries. Otherwise we could end up with endless autogenerated surname entries swamping a given page. Not sure if this explicitly matches with CFI, but probably to the spirit of it. Benwing2 (talk) 06:10, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
January 2023
[edit]Latin, feminine declension in -os, -oe. The Latin RFV IP wants to add this declension but I see no evidence for it in sources; expected phrases like res adespotos, res adespotoe, oda adespotos etc. look unattested (res adespotae is passably common, and indeed appears in the NLW entry, "quasi res anteà fuerint adespotae"). The form adespotoe looks totally unattested and my immediate searches did not turn up any instance of forms in -os, -orum modifying a feminine noun. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- --04:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- 2nd point, first link, "adespotos" is either agreeing with "impressus", not "Vuittenbergae" (it's not in the genitive), or being used as an adverb (thus -ōs?). Second link, sermo is a masculine noun. Third link (assuming "vita Arist. adespotos" is meant, and it's the vita that's adespotos) may count, although perhaps a rather thin basis. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 05:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
- (this asked for forms in -os in general, regardless of gender. --06:06, 23 January 2023 (UTC))
Can't find evidence of this being used in (New) Latin texts, although it appears in some Latin-style names for diseases (e.g. retinopathia congenitalis). Maybe just Translingual? —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 08:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- It is used in English and German, and appears as a "new Latin" style name, so perhaps this should just be marked as English. Translingual won't account for individual language conjugations. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:09, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- In German it's capitalised Retinopathia (accusative Retinopathia, not Retinopathiam) as in Retinopathia pigmentosa. So like baby-foot is French and not English, and footing (exercise walking, jogging) is French, Italian, Spanish and not English or Translingual, retinopathia can be English (and also French etc.), and Retinopathia German. See also: Category:Pseudo-loans from Latin by language. --14:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
February 2023
[edit]Italian. Also RFV'ing atrovarsi. @Catonif, Sartma Both are these are another wonderful SemperBlotto creation, claimed to be alternative forms of trovare/trovarsi. No references given as to where these terms came from and they are not in any dictionaries. Attempts to Google them produce lots of typos for a trovare/a trovarsi but not much else (and excluding trovare from the search yields no hits). Benwing2 (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- I placed two quotes, though I normalized at attrovare per the sources and because a- instead of a*- is just an obsolete orthographical practice once greatly used especially by northern authors. The TLIO link shows great use in northern dialects. Hopefully I'll find a third quote in proper Tuscan. Catonif (talk) 13:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Italian. Created by User:SemperBlotto again. This is a dialect word from Neapolitan and Calabrese but I can't find any cites in Italian per se. Benwing2 (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Convert to a normal Neapolitan entry? Nicodene (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Romanian. I found this in DEX, but I havent been able to find it actually in use ... everything I turn up seems to be a dictionary, a list of words, or (in just a few cases) translation of an English-language text . I can't find a pronunciation given anywhere. There may be some French influence, as the definition given in DEX somewhat resembles that for pitchpin in this French dictionary.
I would be willing to count this as a valid use, but not this since the latter is clearly machine-translated. But that is all I could find. —Soap— 13:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- I've expanded the entry with another use in a popular novel (albeit somewhat mention-y). I couldn't find any other examples of the term in Romanian texts. Einstein2 (talk) 15:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Bogdan You added the Romanian section last year, perhaps you can dig up a third use for this term? Einstein2 (talk) 18:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Looking into it again, DLR gives another use of the word, so this is possibly cited now. Einstein2 (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hey, if you regularly consult DLR/DA, you’re going to love this: https://dlr1.solirom.ro/ —Biolongvistul (talk) 20:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Looking into it again, DLR gives another use of the word, so this is possibly cited now. Einstein2 (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Do Romanian pitchpine and French pitchpin refer solely to North American pine species? “pitchpin”, in Trésor de la langue française informatisé [Digitized Treasury of the French Language], 2012 says so. DCDuring (talk) 18:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think so, yes, though it's a bit of a mess, since as our own entry indicates, the pitch pine can refer to more than one tree. The DLR dictionary gives only Pinus palustris as the definition, but Wikipedia gives only Pinus rigida. Since the habitats of the two trees dont overlap much, I suspect at one point it was in use in English to describe both species, and that people probably still call Palustris pitch pine today, but as arborists have become more standardized, they ended up going with Rigida as the one true pitch pine. Whereas the foreign dictionaries were probably compiled much earlier.
- Anyway, my Romanian isnt good enough to tell at a glance whether the cite given in the DLR dictionary is good enough to qualify as a use rather than a mention .... I'll trust you all if you say it is, and we can let the word remain listed in our dictionary. And we even got a pronunciation out of it, too. However, without the full context and with my limited skills in the language, I can't say on my own whether the DLR dictionary's cites are really uses in running text or more like "this is what they call a pitchpine" examples. Thanks, —Soap— 18:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- In English, it would not be surprising to me that Pinus rigida was usually the referent for pitch pine, but that the term was also often used for any pine that potentially yielded pitch economically. MW just uses an "especially" for P. rigida. DCDuring (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- You can rest assured it passes. There’s the quotation you found (which is better than you might have realised, as it is a transcription of an actually published text), then there’s quotation #1 from DLR, where it is used without explanation in a technical text, then there are these two occurrences in a forestry magazine. That makes three uses (as opposed to mentions) even if you don’t count DLR quotation #2 (which, as Einstein2 said, is more of a mention/English embedding indeed). Do these need to be on the page itself or does this mere discussion legitimise the entry? —Biolongvistul (talk) 20:54, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- It would be better if they were in the entry, but we sometimes let users enjoy multiple link chases, if indeed they trouble to look at the talk page (where this discussion should be archived in due course). DCDuring (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
March 2023
[edit]This is allegedly a Latin adjective meaning "Maronite", but the main word for that in Latin is definitely Marōnītae (usually found in the plural, like most words ending in -ītae), which I just added. I'm having a hard time figuring out whether "maronitus, -a, -um" actually exists as more than an occasional mistake. I added one citation of "Maronitorum" that I think is not a misprint (but could be interpreted as a grammar error; compare this similar example with -arum), so I guess that qualifies the word for inclusion based on https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Limited_Documentation_Languages, but I wanted more eyes on this to check.
Two candidates I found that do seem to be misprints/typos or mistakes: this book refers to "la Grammatica arabica Maronitorum (París, 1616)" but the actual 1616 book seems to use the spelling "-arum"; and an example of "nomen Maronitum" in this book seems to be a mistake for "nomen Maronitarum".
I also found an example of "Colegium Maronitum" used in an English text. Given that "Colegium" seems to be misspelled, I'm not that confident in the Latinity of this. Urszag (talk) 09:20, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Urszag: I think the best solution is just to tag it as a nonstandard altform of Marōnīta (more common than -ītēs when I checked). Though I'm aware many Latin dictionaries lemmatise demonyms and the like at the plural, given that that singular form is decently attested I think it's unhelpful for Marōnītae to be treated as a plurale tantum. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
May 2023
[edit]Old French Etymology 1 "beer". Appears to have been tagged late 2022, but possibly never listed here (?). Leasnam (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- First attestation dates to 1429 per the TLFi and FEW, squarely in the Middle French period and hence a borrowing from Middle Dutch. Nicodene (talk) 23:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Latin. This is apparently a way of writing Ⅿ (“one thousand”), but I'm pretty sure it should be ⅭⅠↃ. Putting brackets around the letter I might be visually similar, but smells like BS. Theknightwho (talk) 16:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- Can we delete this already? A lot of the page content seems like it needs moving, though. Polomo47 (talk) 01:35, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
June 2023
[edit]- Discussion moved from WT:RFDI.
Italian. Only found in personal and place names. (The current definition claims "especially", implying the word would be attestable outside of those, which would make this an RFV problem, but that's contradicted by the onomatology label, so I'm bringing this to RFD.) Very unlikely to have ever been an Italian word in any case, as all the names it is in are Germanic coinages. Catonif (talk) 13:44, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose deletion: it is a rare poetic word; see here, where it is listed in a vocabulary of poetic words.--37.163.130.70 20:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
- Ok, moved to RFV (sorry for the confusion. If it isn't clear, see the beginning of the page for explainations of how this works). The example you provide is curious: the glosses (prando together with polve, ritorte, etc.) are clearly about the sonnet in the preceding page (it's not a vocabulary), though in the sonnet, alongside polve and ritorte we find brando, which is widely attested also elsewhere. Looking at the gloss closely, I suspect that P is actually a B that lost its lower belly either in the printing or in the scanning phase, or alternatively a straight-up misprint. Note that even if we were to consider it a voluntary P, it would still not be enough to keep the entry per our criteria of inclusion. Catonif (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Latin. Does not appear to be spelled as one word in reality. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 20:09, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
July 2023
[edit]Portuguese. Is the lemma registered in Portuguese or only occurs in Old Galician-Portuguese? - Sarilho1 (talk) 09:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- [26] [27] [28]
Do these contents help to attest it? SentientBall (talk) 14:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
August 2023
[edit]Middle French. Tagged in 2021 but seemingly never listed. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
- Added a citation. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 07:43, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
French: "# cashmere goat (Capra hircus angorensis or Capra hircus laniger)"
No citations present. The subspecies are not recognized by Mammal Species of the World, the Catalog of Life, WP, or Wikispecies. It is my understanding that the goats that are the source of cashmere are breeds that do not have well-defined links to subspecies. DCDuring (talk) 02:30, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- The entry is confused, but that's no reason to post a confused rfv. This page is for verifying usage of a specific term, not goat taxonomy. Let me try to explain the main issues involved:
- First of all, cashmere and angora are types of goat wool named after places in regions where they have historically been produced: cashmere from Kashmir and angora from Ankara. They are each produced by a specific breed of goat. French Wikipedia claims, based on this reference that the Angora breed was introduced to Turkey from Kashmir, and infers that the two breeds are basically the same animal, along with similar goats in places like Tibet. English Wikipedia, based on its own sources, says that the origin of the Angora breed is unknown and treats Angora goats and Cashmere goats as separate breeds, with the Tibetan goats included in the Cashmere goat article.
- As for the taxonomic names: back before the taxonomic treatment of breeds and cultivars was somewhat standardized, it was common practice to assign them to taxonomic ranks like subspecies. I haven't done a very thorough search, but the taxonomic names in question do seem to have been in use (Whether the Angora-specific Capra hircus angorensis is used for Cashmere and Tibetan goats is another question entirely). IMO the entry would be better off without them, since they're obsolete, inaccurate, and misleading.
- Which brings me to what I think is the real issue: there is at least one book that says "La chèvre Cachemire - égalment appelée Chèvre du Tibet", so for at least some people, they're synonyms. The sticky part is determining whether "chèvre du Tibet" is a term for cashmere goats in general, or merely for the goats found in Tibet, which are inferred to be the cashmere goat breed. In other words, would someone use the term "chèvre du Tibet" for a goat in Kashmir or China? To use an analogy, even though people in Brussels and in Paris both speak the same language, would anyone say that Parisians speak Belgian French? Chuck Entz (talk) 05:41, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if the RfV caused confusion. I am challenging the definition, at least the part that includes the taxonomy. The taxonomy is probably old, very new, or informal, should the definition prove to be attestable. If there is evidence of usage with these taxa, then it stays. I usually do not challenge entries that at least use current or recent taxonomy, leaving that for others. There is a similar problem with respect to a German entry for Angorawolle. DCDuring (talk) 16:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I did not want to take it on myself to delete the taxonomy and leave the rest, as my skepticism may prove unwarranted. DCDuring (talk) 16:53, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if the RfV caused confusion. I am challenging the definition, at least the part that includes the taxonomy. The taxonomy is probably old, very new, or informal, should the definition prove to be attestable. If there is evidence of usage with these taxa, then it stays. I usually do not challenge entries that at least use current or recent taxonomy, leaving that for others. There is a similar problem with respect to a German entry for Angorawolle. DCDuring (talk) 16:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Portuguese. There are currently 192 entries in this category, most of which are not listed here. The tagging was largely done by Sarilho1. I am making this listing so that Portuguese editors can look through and either cite or speedy delete any obvious entries. This, that and the other (talk) 03:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for this. However, most of the entries are names and surnames. I opened that discussion above some time ago. - Sarilho1 (talk) 12:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Most of the tagged terms seem to be names and surnames that are either pretty common or very common in Brazil. Finding citations for a hundred terms is gonna be quite the tiresome ordeal. MedK1 (talk) 20:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
September 2023
[edit]French. PUC – 17:48, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- It seems to exist: "Ce cocktail bière brune, liqueur de café, sucre et demi-expresso est un "after dinner"" [29]; "Que ce soit pour un apéritif en tout début de soirée ou un after dinner, le Bar du TIGRR est un des endroits incontournables du centre du village" [30]. Don't know whether it meets CFI. Equinox ◑ 11:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Old Galician-Portuguese. The entry was just a copy from the Portuguese one. - Sarilho1 (talk) 17:00, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Portuguese. Never heard this adjective in Portugal. Portuguese dictionaries don't register it either, so if it is indeed a Portuguese expression, it is at most colloquial. - Sarilho1 (talk) 14:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Sicilian. Originally tagged for speedy deletion with rationale "This entry is mispelled. The semiconsonant j- is widely accepted as a simple i- when derived from Latin nexus pl- and fl-". That may be the case but there is an entry at scn.wikt with several other spelling variants. Ultimateria (talk) 19:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Portuguese. Tagged in 2021 but not listed. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
- I was able to find it here. This was the only case where they weren't trying to just explain what the English term "wishful thinking" means. MedK1 (talk) 01:22, 29 August 2025 (UTC)
October 2023
[edit]vada and vada cheneral
[edit]Aragonese. Aragonario gives vaca as a translation of Spanish huelga, DOA gives vaca and vaga. Santi2222 (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- According to the Diccionario Ortografico de l'aragonés (Seguntes la P.O. de l'EFA):
- bada f. ‖ lat. vulg. de batare ‖ cast. rendija; paro laboral; huelga; aburrimiento ‖ cat. badall; aturada laboral; vaga; avorriment
- Im not sure where they got their data from and it's a source that doesn't where it's said or why how many, but nonetheless is a reliable source. Jinengi (talk) 16:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
French. Rfv-sense: "tartan". Weylaway (talk) 23:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Portuguese. Supposed misspelling of septeto. Some users attempted to mark it as European Portuguese misspelling, however the creator of the entry is a Brazilian Portuguese speaker. - Sarilho1 (talk) 15:18, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Some users". No comment. I see plenty of hits for "seteto" online, among them something written by a Portuguese teacher. I see it in aulete too. This actually makes me think that not only is it attested enough for CFI, but it's also not a misspelling at all. MedK1 (talk) 18:10, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, some users. You and some IP, which makes it some, not one. - Sarilho1 (talk) 19:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is "septeto" always or usually pronounced with [pt], or can it also be pronounced with just [t]? From what I could see, the 1990 spelling reform alleges that the correctness of "pt" vs "t" in spelling depends on whether the word has [pt] "nas pronúncias cultas da língua", so it doesn't seem possible that "seteto" could be a simple misspelling (unless by just omitting a letter): seems more like an alternative form representing an alternative pronunciation, and whether that pronunciation is stigmatized or unremarkable should be marked in the entry.--Urszag (talk) 18:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- The IP that edited the entry claimed that "p" is never omitted in Brazil. I'm not aware of it happening in Portugal either. It's possible that it occurs, but so far the claims are that it doesn't. - Sarilho1 (talk) 08:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I meant that "seteto" couldn't be a 'misspelling of septeto' in Brazil because upon saying "septeto" out loud, the tendency would be to say it as "sepiteto"; the P wouldn't be omitted. The only way you'd get "seteto" is if it actually were an alternative form of the word... which does seem to be the case since I could find it in texts by Portuguese teachers and dictionaries alike. MedK1 (talk) 19:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- The IP that edited the entry claimed that "p" is never omitted in Brazil. I'm not aware of it happening in Portugal either. It's possible that it occurs, but so far the claims are that it doesn't. - Sarilho1 (talk) 08:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Portuguese. This is about the 3rd sense. Are we positive this isn't just the 2nd sense but with the word moved to the end of the sentence (perfectly normal in Portuguese)? I'm saying the example sentence for sense #3 means "We could dine together tomorrow then." I added some synonyms to the second sense, and both of them could apply to the 3rd one too. "Podíamos jantar juntos amanhã então" is definitely something I can see myself saying. Is this really something only used only in Southern Brazil? Granted, that's where I'm from, but it sure doesn't feel like a regionalism and I don't think I've ever raised any eyebrows using it in São Paulo or when talking to people from the Northeast. MedK1 (talk) 00:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, perhaps I used the wrong template. I'm not questioning whether it's used like that (because it is and I do), but rather if it warrants being listed as a separate sense (I don't think so). MedK1 (talk) 00:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
Latin protologisms?
[edit]--13:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Tagging for deletion.--Urszag (talk) 06:14, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 01:48, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Can't find anything in Latin, only other languages (searching for various cases). RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 01:48, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
French. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 10:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like BS. PUC – 21:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @PUC I know nothing about the merits, but this IP geolocates to Tunisia- which does have French-speakers. I suppose there might be local usage that doesn't show up anywhere we can find it. That said, I've seen them editing in languages that they would have no personal experience with, so I wouldn't take their word on anything without independent verification. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- "Le Poucre" seems to be a surname. Otherwise there's this but I'm not really sure what it means here: https://books.google.com/books?id=1PhNAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA56--Urszag (talk) 02:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Here's some more on it--apparently, the surname is also spelled "Le Poulchre" (which isn't too surprising an alternative spelling): https://books.google.com/books?id=hnVSk04SIdgC&pg=PA453 Still not sure if it's attested as an adjective though.--Urszag (talk) 03:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- There was an edit on the entry that said, in the edit summary, "This rare word is used in Vendée and means "impressive" rather than "beautiful"." This, that and the other (talk) 01:38, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
November 2023
[edit]French. PUC – 21:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- @PUC I think this is meant to be parallel to ĵ in that it's specific to phonetics as used in France. Theknightwho (talk) 22:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- As noted on Talk:ẑ, Wikipedia (in English and French) offers some other uses of this letter that may be worthy of mentioning in a Translingual section, particularly the Macedonian transliteration (if it indeed caught on in real-world use). This, that and the other (talk) 01:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
French. Nothing on fr.wikt, fr.wikisource. Maybe Canadian French? Jberkel 15:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
December 2023
[edit]Sicilian. The spelling is attested in Latin, and the Latin word does descend from Sicilian, the question is whether the spelling can be found in Sicilian running text. @Hyblaeorum as creator. Catonif (talk) 22:07, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Various 'Latin' terms that are (just?) taxonomic names
[edit]- I can find some attestations of frangula in Latin as a botanical name, but not as an adjective meaning 'fragile'. Daniel Sennert's Epitome naturalis scientiae (1637) includes it in a list: "...Buxus, virga sanguinea, frangula, Evonymus".--Urszag (talk) 06:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Urszag In case you haven't already seen this: in modern taxonomy the name "frangula" goes back to Linnaeus as the specific epithet for what is now Frangula alnus. The reference to "Dod. pempt. 784", evidently refers to this and the following page in Stirpium historiae pemptades sex by Rembert Dodoens. This is the 1616 edition, but it also appears in at least the 1583 on as well. As you can see, it's all in Latin- not "taxonomese", but real Latin. Of course, that has no direct bearing on Latin frangulus. It does discuss names on the top of p.784 and says that this name was in use by others at the time, so an explanation of the name may exist in writing somewhere, and it might be derived from Latin frangō due to brittleness of the wood, as the Wikipedia article on Frangula alnus claims. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
RFV-failed. Adjusting to Translingual.--Urszag (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have deleted the Latin inflections but I have also repurposed actinocarpo (and its inflections) to Portuguese. --kc_kennylau (talk) 22:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Through some research and discussing with @Kc kennylau at Wikt Discord server, I can safely assume actinocarpo is a ghost word, i.e. a term that only exists in dictionaries — and a pretty old aone, one of the earliest mentions is from 1937. Basically, all hits are either from dictionary entries or definitions in some compilation work, I couldn't find any usage example of this word.
- My guess is that someone wanted to explain what the specific epithet actinocarpus meant in scientific names and made a calque along the way, as both actino- (actinomorfo) and carpo (mesocarpo) exist in these kind of compounds in Portuguese. The etymology of all these is a mess too, but that's for another day. Trooper57 (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
RFV-failed. Adjusting to Translingual.--Urszag (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
All seem to have been created just because of the taxonomic names. Urszag (talk) 06:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
- And that's a problem because? DCDuring (talk) 19:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is just a regular RFV. As I view it, and I've seen other editors agree in the past, a taxonomic name by itself doesn't count as a usage of a word in the Latin language. Therefore, we should either verify that these have been used in Latin or move them to Translingual.--Urszag (talk) 19:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'd really be OK with just moving them to Translingual. I doubt that we have many readers or Latin botanical species descriptions coming to Wiktionary for help and not finding them under Translingual. There are plenty that are real Latin, but compound ones like all but lycioides of these four are very rarely 'real' Latin. And I wouldn't argue about something ending in -oides either. I don't know about frangulus, but it was not an arbitrary sign: I'm sure it was intended to mean something based on some vintage of Latin and/or its morphology. DCDuring (talk) 21:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! While I suspected they might not be attested as 'real' Latin, for some of them I'm genuinely uncertain about if uses in Latin exist, so if they do, I'd like to know about it. I think I'll try to follow up on the lead found by Chuck Entz for frangulus and do more of my own searches for the others before moving any of these.--Urszag (talk) 00:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'd really be OK with just moving them to Translingual. I doubt that we have many readers or Latin botanical species descriptions coming to Wiktionary for help and not finding them under Translingual. There are plenty that are real Latin, but compound ones like all but lycioides of these four are very rarely 'real' Latin. And I wouldn't argue about something ending in -oides either. I don't know about frangulus, but it was not an arbitrary sign: I'm sure it was intended to mean something based on some vintage of Latin and/or its morphology. DCDuring (talk) 21:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is just a regular RFV. As I view it, and I've seen other editors agree in the past, a taxonomic name by itself doesn't count as a usage of a word in the Latin language. Therefore, we should either verify that these have been used in Latin or move them to Translingual.--Urszag (talk) 19:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Latin. @VGPaleontologist. See also: Talk:albifrons. --08:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
--08:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
--08:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
--08:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
--08:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
French. Never heard this. PUC – 21:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- Checking Google Books, there are a few 19th-century recordings, however, they mostly refer to a type of shot in pool:
- Dictionnaire de la conversation et de la lecture inventaire raisonné des notions générale les plus indispensable à tous
- Dictionnaire national, ou: Dictionnaire universel de la langue française
- Les jeux de la jeunesse
- The Royal Phraseological English-French, French-English Dictionary
- Dictionnaire historique d'argot (only non-billiard example I could find), also cited here
- I would suggest rewriting the entry as doesn't appear to be a synonym of coup bas. Sidenote: I found usages of "coup de bas en haut" / "coup de poing de bas en haut" as a translation of "uppercut". Io Katai (talk) 04:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
French. Brand of cubed cheese snack. I'm not convinced there is significant generic usage. Equinox ◑ 19:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Theknightwho has now added the English version apericube which seems equally uncommon... Equinox ◑ 19:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Equinox I’ve definitely heard the English form used (albeit rarely). Theknightwho (talk) 19:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: Maybe you have, but you need to find citations and prove generic usage. You may have just heard everyday talk of a trademark like "let's get another of those Babybels, they are good on crackers". Equinox ◑ 02:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
(Discussion moved here from Talk:adventurus.)
Couldn't find this word used at all, Searched PHI and [Perseus] . Theoretically it could be the future active participle of adveniō, though I was unable to find it used that way. The word you are looking for is likely either periculi (trials or perils), iter (journey), or cursus (travels/race). I believe it would be best if we removed the noun form from this definition.
Kiwiroo (talk) 07:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Edit: Adding in a search through the dictionaries I have on hand:
Cassell's Latin Dictionary (→ISBN) Not Found
The New College Latin & English Dictionary (→ISBN) Not Found
Kiwiroo (talk) 07:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- In addition this supposed noun is in the wrong gender; it should rather be adventūra, which is in fact attested as a borrowing from one or more Romance descendants of Vulgar Latin *adventūra.
- I would imagine that the assumption of an *adventūrus resulted from a misinterpretation of the etymology of the English adventure, that is, 'from Latin adventurus' could be read as implying the existence of such a noun in Latin.
- It appears that @TheMouseAvenger, who added the noun, has been inactive since 2018. Nicodene (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
French. PUC – 16:16, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
- Shouldn't this be in RFD for being SOP? MedK1 (talk) 03:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
- Which definition of cheval means "foolish"? DCDuring (talk) 15:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
January 2024
[edit]Catalan. Created by Wonderfool several years ago. Not in any dictionary. This is definitely a possible internationalism but if so we need attestations. Benwing2 (talk) 07:53, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
- I searched through all the catalan diccionaries that are listed in the catalan reference templates, and they only attest "intersecar"; the only hit I got was this in Gran Enciclopèdia Catalana (Ctrl+F "intersec" - four hits). If it exists it was probably modeled after the noun, like the English and Portuguese equivalents. I think it's safe to delete, I'll even create the proper one under intersecar. Sérgio Santos (talk) 00:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: "(colloquial) to own; to defeat; to overwhelm". Tagged by MedK1 but not listed. This, that and the other (talk) 10:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: "(derogatory) upstart; nouveau riche" and the corresponding adjective. Tagged by Sarilho1 but not listed. This, that and the other (talk) 10:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Aromanian. Tagged by Super Dromaeosaurus (talk • contribs) ("I have not been able to find proof of this being the Aromanian name for the city, it might be original research or a hoax") but not listed. This, that and the other (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Tagged by an IP in 2022. I can't find it, but even if I could it would be SOP. This, that and the other (talk) 04:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
RFV-failed. Marking for deletion. —Desacc̱oinṯier 10:55, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: a female screw. I looked through the links at the bottom of the entry and found a few Latin texts with this word, but I couldnt find anything in which any sense other than the literal ones would be the most natural interpretation. Im skeptical that there is a sexual meaning that would be used three times in Latin in order to pass through RFV. One-off sexual innuendos might be there, but that's not CFI-compliant. It's also possible that the originating author misread something, or was copying from a source who had, and that the word actually means a literal female screw (search hardware sites etc), but Im not sure Roman carpenters even had screws, let alone the less common female form. —Soap— 15:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
- Please see Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion#Number of citations: "For languages well documented on the Internet, three citations in which a term is used is the minimum number for inclusion in Wiktionary. For terms in extinct languages, one use in a contemporaneous source is the minimum, or one mention is adequate [...]. For all other spoken languages that are living, only one use or mention is adequate [...]".
- Latin is not a WT:WDL. Regardless of considering it extinct (which Early, Old, Classical, Late, Medieval and Vulgar Latin are) or alive (New Latin; Church Latin), 1 source is sufficient.
- But feel free, to consider using {{lb|la|rare}} or {{LDL-sense}} (cp. {{LDL}}).
- As for a source, L&S has: "The female screw, Plin. 18, 31, 74, § 317.". Georges, which is younger and often better than L&S, has: "b) rugae, der Schraubengang, die Schraubenmutter (griech. περικόχλιον), Plin. 18, 317." (i.e. in plural). Gaffiot translates it as écrou.
- You're welcome. --08:36, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
February 2024
[edit]Latin. --10:31, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
I hope this is the right place to make this request. We have sēdēs listed as an i-stem, and so the genitive plural is given as sēdium. However, my textbook claims this word to be a consonantal-stem of the 3rd declension, which would have a genitive plural sēdum. German Wiktionary lists the non-i form instead; Latin Wiktionary actually lists both (and notable doesn't include the accusative plural variant sēdīs which we list). If this is indeed a case where variation occurs, we should probably include note of that and in what contexts/language stages this is the case. Could someone please verify? Helrasincke (talk) 07:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- This is indeed the right place to request verification of inflected forms of Latin words. It looks like this is discussed by other dictionaries. Lewis and Short says "gen. plur. sedum, Cic. Sest. 20, acc. to Prisc. p. 771 P.: sedium, from form sedis, Liv. 5, 42 Drak. N. cr.; Vell. 2, 109, 3)". The doctoral thesis Aspects of the Phonology and Morphology of Classical Latin, by András Cser (2016) suggests that consonant-stem inflection would be expected overall, saying that third-declension words with the nominative singular ending -ēs "do not show other i-stem forms apart from GENPLUR nubium and cladium (the latter varying with consonant-stem cladum; no GENPLUR forms attested for fames at all). In Latin historical linguistics -ēs is known as a typical feminine i-stem ending for the NOMSING originally" (page 126). I'll take a look for what other attestations might be found.--Urszag (talk) 07:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Latin. It's essentially synonymous with carmen, and so it seems suspicious that it has the same nominative/accusative plural form carmina. Is it a medieval/Late Latin backformation, or a backformation in the mind of a modern editor? No other dictionary I have seen lists it. Urszag (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm surprised this has lasted sixteen years. It is without a doubt the result of an editor's unfamiliarity with the language. There's of course nothing like this in any Latin dictionary, and searching forms like carminum brings up sentences where that is clearly genitive plural (=carmen); carminō doesn't bring up any sort of dative or ablative singular (only the verb carminō); etc. Nicodene (talk) 02:41, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's been edited now with an example of "carminorum"; I also saw some other examples of that form. The question though is whether this actually implies a second-declension singular "carminum, carmini", or if it is best interpreted as a heteroclitic form (like vāsōrum and various post-classical genitive plurals in -ōrum).--Urszag (talk) 00:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am relieved that there is nothing in the Catalogue of Life that uses this. DCDuring (talk) 15:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's been edited now with an example of "carminorum"; I also saw some other examples of that form. The question though is whether this actually implies a second-declension singular "carminum, carmini", or if it is best interpreted as a heteroclitic form (like vāsōrum and various post-classical genitive plurals in -ōrum).--Urszag (talk) 00:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
French. Rfv-sense: "shaped like that of a crow or raven". Seems like a weird definition and Wiktionnaire doesn't have it. I added "corvine" and made the previous definition a gloss. If it's citable, it may simple mean "related to crows or ravens". Andrew Sheedy (talk) 02:23, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- The adjectival sense is noted in the GD "2. Corbin, adj., de corbeau : Le genre corbin." (Corbin, adj. 'of crows': the crow genus). However, when I looked at the referenced work L'Histoire de la nature des oyseaux (book 6, chapter 5), the original phrase is actually "C'est la plus petite de toute les especes du genre Corbin" (It's the smallest of all species in the genus Corbin), which doesn't support the adjectival sense. I would suggest removing it. Io Katai (talk) 03:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Tagged by Nicodene with reason "Is this actually attested in the sense that underlies the Romance outcomes?" This, that and the other (talk) 01:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- The burden of proof is on the entry's maker, namely @LatinGuy87.
- - Nicodene (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Galician. Rfv-sense: "where, whereby". The quote from 1264 was moved to Old Galician-Portuguese.
Tagged by MedK1 but not listed - please remember to list your RFVs as soon as you tag them!! This, that and the other (talk) 01:47, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions archived at "Talk:E=mc²" established that only the following idiomatic sense should be kept in English: "A formulation or realization that captures a profound thought in simple terms." Is there are corresponding idiomatic sense in French? — Sgconlaw (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- The French version of the page cites two examples where it's used in the idiomatic sense of "simple, yet genius principle". There was also an RfD requested in 2013 on the French Wiktionary, but it was kept due to the idiomatic usage. That said, searching Google for idiomatic instances of "le E=MC2 du/de" or "le E=mc² de/du" turns up maybe only 22 unique results and of possessive forms like "Mon/son/etc. E=MC2" gives 3 or 4 results.
- You could say it fails WT:ATTEST as it doesn't have widespread usage and you'll be hard-pressed to find enough citations from durably archived media. Io Katai (talk) 02:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
March 2024
[edit]Latin. —Desacc̱oinṯier 23:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Marking for deletion. —Desacc̱oinṯier 14:26, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
Haitian Creole. I suspect this isn't actually spelled with parentheses; rather, it can be spelled either plan pye or pla pye. If so, we should move the content to the more common spelling and have the other be an alternative form. —Mahāgaja · talk 16:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
All entries in Category:Australian Italian
[edit]Created by an Australian IP who has no clue what they are doing. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 07:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
This entry seems unattested, see Hesperus where the latter is in no way adjectival according to Charlton T. Lewis and other sources. Adjectival forms formed from the stem are either Hesperius or Hesperis, both in all caps.
Responding to the above request (not sure how to do this - I'm not a regular contributor): I can't speak to whether "hesperus" was used as an adjective in classical or ecclesiastical Latin, but it is used as an adjective in botanical Latin. For example, there is a plant species whose name is Parietaria hespera.
- There are about 330 names of accepted non-extinct species at Catalogue of Life with forms of hesperus as (sub)specific epithet. About 50% more with names that are unaccepted or for extinct species. I'm guessing that the meaning is usually "western" for these. DCDuring (talk) 01:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't know about that ! But the real issue is the entry not being referenced as being of New-Latin usage and also being used in etymology headings (english Hesperus) when it's derivatives are uppercase-only and seems itself to be.
- I've noticed the same thing with Camena/camena which shows perhaps a common problem on wiktionary about not uppercasing latin entries that should in fact be upercassed. I'll check on that and do the changes accordingly concerning the Hesperus paradigms. Though I'd rather leave hesperus to someone else as I usually don't deal with new latin stuff. Tim Utikal (talk) 18:49, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- For most such terms we have entries for both upper- and lower-case forms. The lowercase form is usually attestable as New Latin or "Translingual" in the names of species. We haven't spent too much time on the matter because there is neither much interest nor consensus among contributors. In the case of hesperus, it is easy to attest to its wide and continued use in scientific Latin with the meaning "western". I am not sure about other meanings, nor about use in other vintages of Latin, though "Italian" might be in use or have been used in Ecclesiastical Latin. I don't understand the implications of or evidence attesting the "relational" definition "evening", specifically why it differs in semantics or syntax from attributive use of a noun in English. Is it just that the term is inflected by gender? Or is it just a tradition among Latin scholars or certain Latin scholars? DCDuring (talk) 13:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you meant. I'm sorry to ask but do you know how latin adjectives work? Hesperus is strictly a masculine noun and new latin hesperus (apparently) only an adjective. A proper (as not New Latin) latin adjectival form of Hesperus would be Hesperius, suffixed with -ius and thus inflected in gender, case and number according to what it qualifies. But again I probably misunderstood what you wrote. I do think the entry should be cleared up and added a new latin lb tag to avoid confusion and for correctness' sake. Tim Utikal (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be surprised to find that it was hesperius rather tahn hesperus in all Latins, eg, Vulgar Latin, Medieval Latin, Ecclesiastical Latin. In any event, resolution requires citations.
- BTW, how do you think we should present the etymology of the 107 accepted genera of extant organisms? Are they likely derived from Hesperus (Latin), hesperus (Latin or Translingual), or hesper- (Translingual)? All three seem like possibilities. DCDuring (talk) 13:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm quite ignorant regarding new latin word-creation so I don't have anything to compare this exemple to. Each way you propose seem likely, though I maintain lowercase+adjective hesperus is quite aberrant and can't find any quote supporting it. It may just be a rethinking of the word from some scientist who didn't know his latin well enough (hardly credible) or may be a common thing to create new latin specific adjectives from former noun stems (it's for you to tell me if you know better). Either way hesperus is not incorrect if used in scientific context, just a completely different word which again should not be confused for the other and given its new latin/translingual tag. Tim Utikal (talk) 18:18, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't understand what you meant. I'm sorry to ask but do you know how latin adjectives work? Hesperus is strictly a masculine noun and new latin hesperus (apparently) only an adjective. A proper (as not New Latin) latin adjectival form of Hesperus would be Hesperius, suffixed with -ius and thus inflected in gender, case and number according to what it qualifies. But again I probably misunderstood what you wrote. I do think the entry should be cleared up and added a new latin lb tag to avoid confusion and for correctness' sake. Tim Utikal (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- For most such terms we have entries for both upper- and lower-case forms. The lowercase form is usually attestable as New Latin or "Translingual" in the names of species. We haven't spent too much time on the matter because there is neither much interest nor consensus among contributors. In the case of hesperus, it is easy to attest to its wide and continued use in scientific Latin with the meaning "western". I am not sure about other meanings, nor about use in other vintages of Latin, though "Italian" might be in use or have been used in Ecclesiastical Latin. I don't understand the implications of or evidence attesting the "relational" definition "evening", specifically why it differs in semantics or syntax from attributive use of a noun in English. Is it just that the term is inflected by gender? Or is it just a tradition among Latin scholars or certain Latin scholars? DCDuring (talk) 13:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
French. Rfv-sense: asteroid. Einstein2 (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
April 2024
[edit]Mirandese.
Mirandese Wikipedia has this at Ourganizaçon de las Naciones Ounidas, and I can't find much of anything at this spelling- but there's not a lot out there. Pinging @Ultimateria, who knows more about this language than I do. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Chuck Entz: I don't remember which sources I used to use for Mirandese but I can't find them anymore. Attesting anything in this language will be difficult. Ultimateria (talk) 02:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- In some articles (Nuoba Iorque, Die Anternacional de la Lhéngua Mai, Burro de Miranda) the Mirandese Wikipedia spells this Naçones Ounidas. --Lambiam 07:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
May 2024
[edit]Latin. Rfv-sense: nonsense, bullshit. Every dictionary I've checked only seems to list the mouse droppings sense. Weylaway (talk) 18:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Rudi Laschenkohl Can you verify this sense? Weylaway (talk) 01:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Tagged but not listed. Ultimateria (talk) 01:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- I view this exactly as another eye-dialect–spelling for Caipira "vermelho". Less common than "vermeio", but it shows some social media results, for what that's worth. Polomo47 (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
French. PUC – 09:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Latin protologisms once again?
[edit]--20:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
June 2024
[edit]Latin protologisms once again? (2)
[edit]gender stuff
[edit]- cisgenus n in cisgender
non binarium n in non-binarytransgener in transgendertransvestitus m, transvestitor m, transvestitrix f, transvestitrum n in cross-dresser
--09:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Romance languages
[edit]lingua Arpitanica f, arpitanica f in Franco-ProvençalLatin translations of langue d'oïl, Astur-Leonese, Aragonese, Extremaduran, Mirandese, Galician, Piedmontese, French, Valencian, Catalan, Portuguese
--09:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
--05:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Latin.
All descendants point towards scloppus, which was once the spelling we used. The sole cite that I can find points to this site which actually has seloppo. This could be a scan error, but it's more likely a scan error for scloppo than for stloppo. (The suffix is because it's in the ablative case, i think.) And the onset stl- is only found in Old Latin anyway. Basically looking to see why we're insisting on using a spelling that seems to rest on so many unproven assumptions. There may be infomation here in the page history and here too. but i couldnt find the reasoning for this. @Nicodene if youre around sorry to bother but you seem the best person to ask. Thanks, —Soap— 21:31, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Soap: I was not aware that the form scloppus may actually be attested. I'll have to look into that. As for stloppus, it is attested in Persius and Marcellus Empiricus. As an onomatopoeic formation it may postdate the earlier /stl-/ > /l-/ seen in locus, etc.
- The descendants are are in any case consistent with both forms. For /kl/ < /tl/, cf. capiclum, viclus < capit(u)lum, vit(u)lus (both examples from the Appendix Probi) and siclus < sit(u)lus. Nicodene (talk) 22:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- but isnt that supposed attestation the same text i just linked to? i dont know the source material we're working with here ... parchment, stone tablets, or maybe even modern paper? ... but it seems to me that the people saying stloppus might've been looking at a single instance of a word, a hapax even, where the second letter was difficult to read. i'd be more convinced of the unusual -t- spelling if the Perseus text i linked to had it, but it has a spelling that suggests the word form was *seloppus. this could be a misreading ,but as i said above it seems more likely that it'd be a misreading for scloppus, which uses the traditional L onset cluster that all the descendants point to. is there a text we can look at that shows the -t- spelling, as opposed to a scholar who merely says that it's there? thanks, —Soap— 09:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's just a website- there was probably a scanning error somewhere along the way. And that is only one of the two attestations mentioned.
- The texts are parchment copies of copies of copies [...] reaching back across millennia to the Roman originals. Having delved down that rabbit-hole before, I am not eager to repeat the experience without a more compelling reason. I'll settle for finding more comments by reliable sources. Nicodene (talk) 09:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Nicodene This text has some discussion of the matter in the footnote, which spills onto the following page. This, that and the other (talk) 09:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I was just about to cite Jahn. As you can see from the critical apparatus, forms starting with stlo- such as stlopo do occur in some manuscripts, and as Nicodene said stl- turned regularly into /skl/. Jahn says Priscian cites this word as an example of a word starting with stl.--Urszag (talk) 10:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- but isnt that supposed attestation the same text i just linked to? i dont know the source material we're working with here ... parchment, stone tablets, or maybe even modern paper? ... but it seems to me that the people saying stloppus might've been looking at a single instance of a word, a hapax even, where the second letter was difficult to read. i'd be more convinced of the unusual -t- spelling if the Perseus text i linked to had it, but it has a spelling that suggests the word form was *seloppus. this could be a misreading ,but as i said above it seems more likely that it'd be a misreading for scloppus, which uses the traditional L onset cluster that all the descendants point to. is there a text we can look at that shows the -t- spelling, as opposed to a scholar who merely says that it's there? thanks, —Soap— 09:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Attested as a whole word? Or is this assumed based on Old Latin ceip-? — 2600:4808:9C31:F400:78F8:25D1:580F:9F12 21:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- L&S: "cippus (cīpus), i, m.".
- But it's without source, and not in Georges, Gaffiot, just L and DMLBS at [31].
- [32] (old) mentions a source: "cippus, auch cipus geschrieben z. B. Gram. lat. IV p. 574, 7 u. Var. bei Hor. sat. 1, 8, 12". Horatius' text can be found at [33]. This old ed. (1520) has it with cipus. (1864) gives cipus as varia lectio. So both can be mentioned in the entry:
- occuring in quite old eds. (which, of course, can be of lower quality)
- appearing in some old manuscript and being a varia lectio (likely of lesser quality/accuracy/etc.)
- --10:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
Latin. --2003:DE:3717:71AC:A1D3:7211:AD2D:387E 06:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Move to illei per source. Not problematic for Romance derivatives, due to the regular change of /ae/ > /ɛ/. Kwékwlos (talk) 09:34, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
French. Tagged but not listed. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 18:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
July 2024
[edit]Latin. Domus is currently listed with three possible dative singular forms: domuī, domō, domū. The first two are attestable, but is the third? It seems most grammars of Latin don't list it. Hypothetically, it might be possible, given what Gellius says about Caesar's argument based on analogy for using -ū rather than -uī in the dative singular of all fourth-declension words: "C. etiam Caesar, gravis auctor linguae Latinae, in Anticatone, “unius,” inquit, “arrogantiae, superbiae dominatuque.” Item In Dolabellam actionis I. lib. I.: “Isti, quorum in aedibus fanisque posita et honori 9erant et ornatu.” In libris quoque analogicis omnia istiusmodi sine “i” littera dicenda censet." But it's not clear to me how far Caesar's prescriptions were ever put into practice (even by himself). Anyway, if "domu" is unattested in this use it seems better to omit it, so as to avoid confusing learners about the declension of an already tricky noun.--Urszag (talk) 00:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Georges: "Dat. archaist. domo (Corp. inscr. Lat. 3, 6463. Cato r.r. 134, 2. Hor. ep. 1, 10, 13) u. domu (Corp. inscr. Lat. 3, 231 u. 5, 1220), klass. domui:" with reference to Corpus inscriptionum Latinarum (see e.g. [34]). --05:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Latin. — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:DE:3717:71B6:1570:B7E5:AEA:14BC (talk) at 21:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC).
- Have added a quotation. —Desacc̱oinṯier 14:54, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
- Is à a Latin letter? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:00, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
- It is not part of the standard character repertoire for Latin, no. Nevertheless that is the spelling used in the quoted text. —Desacc̱oinṯier 20:13, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
- Neo-Latin writers/editors used the grave accent for various functions: "à" is a formerly common spelling of the Latin preposition ā, and another common use is marking the final syllable of adverbs. In Latin, vowel letters marked with accents aren't considered to be separate letters of their own.--Urszag (talk) 20:41, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
- Is à a Latin letter? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:00, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
RFV-passed. —Desacc̱oinṯier 09:56, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
Italian. Imetsia (talk (more)) 23:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
French. PUC – 17:27, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- autres pays, autres coutumes would be expected here Phacromallus (talk) 19:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- The latter is easily attested,[35][36][37] as is autre pays, autres coutumes.[38][39][40] --Lambiam 12:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- We do have an entry for autre pays, autres mœurs (and of course autres temps, autres mœurs). --Lambiam 17:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
August 2024
[edit]French, uncountable noun. Jberkel 15:13, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- French doesn't really have uncountable nouns. Nothing in GBooks but there are examples on the wider web. Moreover, haschich has a plural given. I'm inclined to keep. This, that and the other (talk) 03:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- web references only won't do it, though. I don't find anything in gbooks searching for "les haschs" or "des haschs". Jberkel 08:07, 19 July 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Claimed to be youngster's slang. - Sarilho1 (talk)
- I've heard it. One of its variations even has an entry on inFormal. It really just keeps going. Seriously. Consider using Google sometime.
- Though, it seems to be mostly "full <adjective meaning angry>" ("full pistola" is the most common and also what I've heard/used; but "full bolado" and "full nervoso" gets plenty of hits too) and "full <tier of Minecraft armor>". I was also able to find "full talento" and I have no idea what THAT could've meant. Maybe it should have its own entry? MedK1 (talk) 01:42, 29 August 2025 (UTC)
- Apparently it's not even exclusive to Brazil? This guy's from Mozambique it seems. MedK1 (talk) 01:44, 29 August 2025 (UTC)
RFV-passed. MedK1 (talk) 14:54, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese.
- Seems "emirato" is in Priberam, and "Emiratos Árabes Unidos" inInfopédia. Although, the Portuguese Wikipedia page says the name is used "wrongly" because it isn't in VOLP... doesn't seem like a misspelling, but maybe proscribed? Polomo47 (talk) 00:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Lewis and Short says "public talker of nonsense, a comically formed name, Plaut. Pers. 4, 6, 21 (703) Ritschl N. cr." This blog post suggests the form is "possibly completely conjectural". If it is a conjecture, we should at least give some context of who proposed it and why.--Urszag (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- WT:FICTION? Cp. Talk:Pyrgopolynices#Deletion discussion. (Though Callidamates, Misargyrides, Philolaches and maybe others exist as well.) --22:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some of Plautus's character names make it as taxa, but the Catalogue of Life doesn't have this one. DCDuring (talk) 22:53, 20 November 2024 (UTC).
September 2024
[edit]Portuguese. Tagged by Sarilho1 in November 2022 but not listed. I think it's attestable, given Google readily shows many articles correcting the misspelling. Polomo47 (talk) 00:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Sicilian. Seemlingly a hypercorrected protologism for actual partugallu. Sicilian dd corresponds to Italian ll in inherited words, though it is not the case for recent loans such as this one. (The word first surfaced in Italian itself in the late 18th century.) Catonif (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Tagged by Sarilho1 in May 2023 but not listed. Polomo47 (talk) 13:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is this really necessary? [41]. Theknightwho (talk) 15:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm just listing it for bookkeeping. As for whether it really should be added... it's indeed a surname, yeah, but do people other than the musician really have it?
- It seems a lot of other languages do list Mozart — even though, for some entries, the only sense listed is the musician (I don't think that's allowed?) — so I guess it probably makes sense to have it in Portuguese too. Polomo47 (talk) 19:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think for names of famous people, it makes sense to have entries in multiple languages even if the last name isn't actually used by native speakers of that language, simply because the pronunciations will vary from language to language. It's not always predictable. For instance, the English pronunciation of "Einstein" is typically /ˈaɪnstaɪn/, but in French its more commonly /ˈaɪnʃtaɪn/. In more inflected languages, these names can also have additional forms that are not found in the source language. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 03:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: "genitive plural of pus". I suspect this noun actually isn't used in the plural, at least not in Classical Latin.--Urszag (talk) 16:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
October 2024
[edit]Sicilian. Rationale: "This entry is mispelled, because slight similarities it has with Sicilian which lead to an italianized writing system. The actual form is de-sonorized: cuntatinu". Ultimateria (talk) 18:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Sicilian. Rationale: "This entry is mispelled. The initial ⟨i-⟩ is always a semiconsonant ⟨j-⟩." Ultimateria (talk) 18:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
- Portuguese.
google:"Senhore"&"Sr.e" show it's used. For example, here and here. The ordinal indicator ᵉ is used here and here for Srᵉ. Web-julio (talk) 06:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Latin. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 06:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
Latin. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 06:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
- L&S has "Note: 1. Act. form tŭĕo, ēre: censores vectigalia tuento, Cic. Leg. 3, 3, 7: ROGO PER SVPEROS, QVI ESTIS, OSSA MEA TVEATIS, Inscr. Orell. 4788." This, that and the other (talk) 09:08, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Surjection I've added references as a well as a quote from a CIL inscription. Graearms (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2025 (UTC)
RFV-passed. The discussion has been cited without challenge for over a year, since This, that and the other provided a quote on October 11, 2024. Graearms (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. It looks like Priscian mentions this form, but are there examples of it actually being used?--Urszag (talk) 16:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Same. @Jeaucques Quœure. --07:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- This and catholicior are both cited, by the way. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 01:27, 23 September 2025 (UTC)
November 2024
[edit]Italian. Rfv-sense: "to put on a baby's nappy/diaper". Tagged, but not listed by User:Whitekiko.
Sicilian. Ultimateria (talk) 19:46, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
Latin. Just Translingual? Ultimateria (talk) 00:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Polomo47 (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Cites sent to me by Trooper57:
- Corea
- Koreia
- Koréia
- Polomo47 (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC).
December 2024
[edit]Portuguese. Tagged for RFD by MedK1 a year ago but not listed. Etymological h’s were removed at the same time accent marks (like ê) were added. Polomo47 (talk) 01:45, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe keep, as it's a somewhat common misspelling in mistranslations. Davi6596 (talk) 19:23, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Just remembered this spelling is actually valid as prescribed by the 1931 Orthographic Agreement. Will change categorization accordingly.- For now, though, I'd like to see this misspelling in CFI-compliant quotations (which may be found in 1931-orthography texts). I think such modern "mistranslations" are never used in actual prose, and definitely not by anyone with a hint of knowledge of the language. Polomo47 (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Unusual (i.e., rare or nonstandard) use of diacritics pre-reform. Should be hard to find in 3 independent sources. Polomo47 (talk) 02:29, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I found it as a misspelling. Davi6596 (talk) 16:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like this was the normal spelling for a bunch of 1600s official documents... Probably worth keeping as obsolete, then. Let's see. Polomo47 (talk) 03:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- So, this is actually pretty noteworthy. Now that I’ve read more 16–1700s texts, I’ve indeed noticed that many of them use ⟨`⟩ instead of ⟨´⟩ and, for that matter, the sequence ⟨aõ⟩ instead of ⟨ão⟩ (this one lasted up to the mid 1800s). Though it’s kind of a clutter, I think we should make entries for these, yeah... Maybe the grave vs. acute could be reasoned... @Trooper57, MedK1 (god, do I love pinging!) Polomo47 (talk) 17:05, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- wtf I didn't reply. Sorry about that. But at the same time, I don't really know what to do. Do we really want versions with ` for every accented word? We already have accentless versions too, don't we? Or are graves only for oxytones and they didn't coexist with the accentless forms? Hm... MedK1 (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2025 (UTC)
- I am under the impression these graves are from the 18th century at most, and only in oxytones; spellings with graves coexisted with those with acutes. In the same period, paroxytones and proparoxytones were usually unaccented, but I’m not sure if the rare accented ones also used graves, or just acutes. And do we want an entry in ⟨-aõ⟩ for all of the words in ⟨-ão⟩... — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 19:32, 30 August 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not completely sure I'd miss them if they were gone. It'd save us a lot of work with pt-pre-reform and whatnot, that's for sure... MedK1 (talk) 00:13, 31 August 2025 (UTC)
- I am under the impression these graves are from the 18th century at most, and only in oxytones; spellings with graves coexisted with those with acutes. In the same period, paroxytones and proparoxytones were usually unaccented, but I’m not sure if the rare accented ones also used graves, or just acutes. And do we want an entry in ⟨-aõ⟩ for all of the words in ⟨-ão⟩... — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 19:32, 30 August 2025 (UTC)
- wtf I didn't reply. Sorry about that. But at the same time, I don't really know what to do. Do we really want versions with ` for every accented word? We already have accentless versions too, don't we? Or are graves only for oxytones and they didn't coexist with the accentless forms? Hm... MedK1 (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. I expect Achilles instead of this, because that would be the proper etymological spelling. Polomo47 (talk) 03:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Cited Achiles (and this suffices for calcanhar de Achiles) Polomo47 (talk) 19:27, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I was able to find a few people or businesses named "Aquilles", but no actual cite of it as the Greek figure. I'm thinking it's a case like "Fellipe" or "Thiago". In my old dictionaries, I'm able to find "Achilles", but not either of the other ones. We might want to fail Aquilles or otherwise change it to 'a male given name'. MedK1 (talk) 14:52, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Not a differential accent, so what is it? Polomo47 (talk) 05:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Could not find 1930s sites in memoria.bn.gov.br, not any cites in bndigital.bnportugal.gov.pt. For that matter, aplicativo is just as rare in the former, within the same time period. Polomo47 (talk) 06:14, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Latin. There already is ningit and the references for 'ningo' either point to 'ningit' (Lewis and Short) or simply don't give 'ningo' (Gaffiot). So should those 1sg. quotation forms exist at all when they at most occur in some dictionaries? Exarchus (talk) 10:00, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I changed 'ningo' to 'alternative form of ningit' and removed the Gaffiot reference, but there's still the question whether these pages should exist at all, given that ningit is given as 'impersonal verb'. There apparently exists a page for pluo, saying this verb takes a subject, but is this attested for "to snow"? Exarchus (talk) 10:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am of the view that this is the situation where a hard redirect could be used, as it's very plausible for someone to read "ningit" in a text and think that they should look it up under "ningo". This, that and the other (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then you're hoping no other language will show up having 'ningo' or 'ninguo'. Li Niha has 'ningo' redirecting to 'ingo', apparently 'ningo' is a mutated case marking form. Exarchus (talk) 08:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I had to deal with this situation at consum. This, that and the other (talk) 10:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Then you're hoping no other language will show up having 'ningo' or 'ninguo'. Li Niha has 'ningo' redirecting to 'ingo', apparently 'ningo' is a mutated case marking form. Exarchus (talk) 08:35, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am of the view that this is the situation where a hard redirect could be used, as it's very plausible for someone to read "ningit" in a text and think that they should look it up under "ningo". This, that and the other (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Polomo47 (talk) 10:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- êle and elle were indeed used. [42]; [43]. I know a source mentioning "êlle", however I tried to access and it's gone. LIrala (talk) 22:05, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, êle was widely used between 1911–1945 or 1943–1971, while elle was used prior to 1911 or 1943. Accented spellings like êlle would've been a rarer form that I'm working on deleting via this RfM. Would appreciate your input there, by the way. Also here, another RfM for which your input would be good. Polomo47 (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
- This post mentions it, but the cited links don't work. LIrala (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed neither of those counts for attestation. That second article also makes me want to end humanity. Polomo47 (talk) 19:41, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- This post mentions it, but the cited links don't work. LIrala (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed, êle was widely used between 1911–1945 or 1943–1971, while elle was used prior to 1911 or 1943. Accented spellings like êlle would've been a rarer form that I'm working on deleting via this RfM. Would appreciate your input there, by the way. Also here, another RfM for which your input would be good. Polomo47 (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Polomo47 (talk) 02:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Galician. Tagged by @Trooper57 but not listed. Polomo47 (talk) 15:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I couldn't attest it even though it should theoretically be a very predictable form. When trying to figure out why that is, I noticed I couldn't find many cases of Galician xacaré being used outside Wikiprojects, either. I figure Galician speakers just don't talk about alligators a whole lot. It probably should be deleted. MedK1 (talk) 00:28, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Polomo47 (talk) 16:10, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- @JnpoJuwan explain-se! Polomo47 (talk) 00:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- some people do use, not sure what do I have to explain. Juwan (talk) 12:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'd never seen it used anywhere, but a quick Google search tells me that yup, some wackos do use it. MedK1 (talk) 00:29, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
French. Converted from speedy request. – Svārtava (tɕ) 08:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Isn't this Old Galician-Portuguese? Current quotation is from the 14th century, and thus OGP. Polomo47 (talk) 02:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- The term is from OGP and is practically unused in modern-day Portuguese (we should defo make the OGP entry). But it still shows up in plenty of fixed expressions, linked at the bottom. So we can't just delete the page. Or can we? MedK1 (talk) 14:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- It would be great if we could actually have the entries to begin with. Regardless, I think we cannot keep the definition as it is if the word cannot be attested outside of the expression — we’d need to change it to “Only used in...” Polomo47 (talk) 14:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
RetractedChanged to RFV-sense, actually. Polomo47 (talk) 18:33, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Spanish. Added by User:Type56op9 (aka User:Wonderfool) in 2015. Likely misspelling of sénior. Benwing2 (talk) 09:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- According to Spanish Wiktionary, it is an antiquated (possibly meaning outdated or obsolete, I'm not exactly sure, but regardless existent) courtesy vocative:
- Singular senior / Plural seniors
- Vocativo de cortesía que se antepone al nombre, apellido o tratamiento de una persona.
- Uso: anticuado
- Sinónimo: señor.
- Vocativo de cortesía que se antepone al nombre, apellido o tratamiento de una persona.
- Translation:
- Singular senior / Plural seniors
- Courtesy vocative that is placed before a person's name, surname or title
- Usage: antiquated
- Synonym: señor
- Courtesy vocative that is placed before a person's name, surname or title
- Since I'm not sure about the exact extent that anticuado implies here, I have marked it as "dated or obsolete", since some I have seen some entries labeled as such
- ~ JGHFunRun (talk) 14:17, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
- It may also be used by Spanish speakers in the US due to English influence. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Seems to have use spelled separately, as guard rail, and it’s that spelling that’s listed at the Portuguese Wikipedia. Does the hyphenated spelling also occur? Polomo47 (talk) 00:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Portuguese. Tagged en masse by @Sarilho1 in March 2023 but not listed. One of the few worthwhile tags of the bunch. Polomo47 (talk) 21:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
January 2025
[edit]Portuguese. Polomo47 (talk) 20:18, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. I expect n'aquelle, naquelle. Polomo47 (talk) 20:30, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- Couldn't attest them. "naquêle" is considered wrong per the 1931 agreement, too. The same goes for daquêle, which we should probably add into this RFV. MedK1 (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2025 (UTC)
Let's give these some time and then fail them all. MedK1 (talk) 03:51, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
Portuguese. I think this is a poetic form spelled of'recer. Polomo47 (talk) 20:39, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about this one. Though there are many hits for it online, none of them point towards it being an archaic form. I'm actually thinking whoever wrote it as "archaic" meant to say "obsolete" since 'archaic' spellings are by and large etymological/hellenic. You'd expect offerecer.
- Most instances for ofrecer are in otherwise already badly-spelled texts or from messages on social media like Reddit by non-native speakers. Maybe it could still be a dialectal form? I haven't been able to confirm that for sure.
- The form doesn't exist in OGP (per our references) and doesn't show up in Pero Vaz de Caminha's letter either (only words beginning in of- are what we'd now write as oficiar); so it really doesn't appear to be "obsolete" either. MedK1 (talk) 23:18, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
- Discussion moved to WT:RFDI#ampôla.
French. Rfv-sense 2: "eggcorn". PUC – 11:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Created by User:Masonthelime, who has been known to make up entries in the past. It's in Lewis and Short but not in Gaffiot, which makes me very suspicious that it's a mistake. To make things worse, User:Masonthelime added a bizarre perfect tense autumnēsit that almost certainly is complete garbage, and forgot the long vowel in -ēsc- in the verb conjugation, which propagated out to the non-lemma forms he created using the accelerator mechanism. @Urszag. Benwing2 (talk) 07:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Nothing in Brepols Library of Latin Texts for anything commencing autumne... except autumne itself. This, that and the other (talk) 09:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- Lewis and Short cites Martianus Capella, who is given by some editions as having "autumnascit". Latin is a LDL, so we don't necessarily need more than one citation. The question would be whether Lewis and Short is citing an attested manuscript reading. I think the answer may be "yes": the footnotes in this edition (which gives "autumnescit" in the main page text) suggests that "autumnascit" is an emendation proposed by Grotius. I think it makes sense for us to include both forms, marked as alternative forms (I'm not sure which should be selected as the main form). I'm not sure though; the "-escit" version isn't listed in the critical apparatus of this edition, but is mentioned here.--Urszag (talk) 12:47, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
- I have added the macron (-ēsc-). If this fails, autumnēscēns (“approaching autumn”) and its forms should also be deleted, but if not, I do not know whether it needs to be verified separately. J3133 (talk) 15:24, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
- FWIW, I can find (apparently) two cites (from the 17- and 1800s) of autumnescens. - -sche (discuss) 22:00, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- The number of works (google books:"autumnescit") which interpret Capella as having autumnescit makes me think it makes sense to mention it, if not by having an entry then at least by mentioning in a usage note in the -a- entry that some people read the word (in Capella) as autumnescit instead. - -sche (discuss) 22:00, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
French. Tagged by @197.31.143.99. Binarystep (talk) 10:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: Cranefly. Is this legit? None of the dictionaries back it up. MedK1 (talk) 12:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- irregular or not, people use it that way too. LIrala (talk) 05:30, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- @MedK1: This one is a bit tricky. Craneflies look a lot like big mosquitos with very long legs (in the UK, they're known as daddy-longlegs), so it may not always be clear without context which is referred to. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
- In fact, the word melga is used both to refer to mosquitos and crane flies. There is even the widespread belief that mosquitos and crane flies are the same species, just different sizes. - Sarilho1 (talk) 21:40, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. RfV-sense Etymology 1: (rare, prescriptive) Alternative form of autópsia.
This is how the definition is now worded after my changes. This is for a prescriptive pronunciation (and therefore spelling) of the word as something like IPA(key): /ˌaw.tuˈpsi.ɐ/, compare how Ciberdúvidas describes it happening with necrópsia / necropsia.
The problem: this form should be basically unseen in modern times, and prior to the first spelling reforms both forms would've most often been spelled the same.
Audio pronunciations with stress on the /i/ may prove a better source of attestation. Polomo47 (talk) 08:17, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Latin. I only found examples of Thyias, Thyiad-.--Urszag (talk) 00:05, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- In English that spelling is abundantly citable from Google Scholar, which might offer some clues relevant to a search for this term in Latin, eg, Thyia plicata. DCDuring (talk) 14:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
- @DCDuring: The genus is named after Ancient Greek θυία (thuía). Ancient Greek υ (u) is transliterated in earlier Latin loans as "u", but later loans as "y". Intervocalic Ancient Greek ι (i) could be either a vowel or a semivowel (assuming it has the accent for orthographic reasons), the latter of which could be spelled in Latin as a "j", which might explain the variation in spelling.
- That said, the capitalized proper noun is from a different word, probably Ancient Greek θυιάς (thuiás), which L&S defines as "inspired, possessed woman, esp. Bacchante", or perhaps related to Ancient Greek Θυῖα (Thuîa), which L&S defines as "festival of Dionysus at Elis". If I had to guess, I would say that they all come from some word for fragrant smoke or incense, as would the Ancient Greek ξύλον θύινον (xúlon thúinon) in the book of Revelations, which the Latin Vulgate translates as lignum thȳinum. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:57, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
- I wasn't advancing Thyia plicata as a taxon. I thought it was just a phrase in what seemed like a non-taxonomic article.
- FWIW, taxonomically, Thyia is a subgenus of genus Pedionis of cicadellids and thyia is used as a specific epithet for several insect species. thuia is less used, once related to Thuja. The Catalogue of Life has only one species in the subgenus, Pedionis (Thyia) thyia. There are other more remotely derived taxa, but we have already diverged from the matter at hand. DCDuring (talk) 14:09, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. I've seen -e terminations and -@ as well. Every mention of -x that I've come across was from a non-native though (see the infamous Latinx).
While trying to attest them, "moçx" returned like two hits repeated ad infinitum, and "meninx" returned the English word, singular of meninges. Do these pass CFI? MedK1 (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
- meninx
- https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/internacional-62025281 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Nneiwgres (2.4 mi), see https://www.locus.ufv.br/bitstream/123456789/30826/1/texto%20completo.pdf
- https://lume.ufrgs.br/bitstream/handle/10183/255346/001163239.pdf?sequence=1
- https://periodicos.sbu.unicamp.br/ojs/index.php/lil/article/download/8660785/27348
- https://www.gazetadopovo.com.br/opiniao/artigos/meninx-e-histeria-de-genero-8wxtq5yxqluawa4pnemyqb67i/
- moçx
- https://repositorio.ufc.br/bitstream/riufc/46657/1/2019_art_dcantunes.pdf
- https://tede.ufrrj.br/jspui/bitstream/jspui/4278/2/2017%20-%20Carolina%20Pereira%20Peres.pdf
- https://portal.uern.br/patu/dlv/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Debora-Caroline-Pereira-Silva.pdf
- http://www.revistaversalete.ufpr.br/edicoes/vol3-04/26AionRoloff.pdf
- LIrala (talk) 05:22, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can someone fix the template
{{-a-o-x}}so these aren't added in Category:English terms suffixed with -x (gender-neutral)? Adding "-a-o-x|pt" doesn't work, neither for Spanish (I think it used to work before). LIrala (talk) 05:36, 25 January 2025 (UTC)- J3133 LIrala (talk) 05:37, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- @LIrala: Fixed; as stated in the documentation,
{{-a-o-x}}takes two parameters (the first for the language section of -x, the second for the category, hence{{-a-o-x|pt|pt}}). I could make it take one parameter for both, but it was implemented this way by @WordyAndNerdy. J3133 (talk) 06:50, 25 January 2025 (UTC)- Looks like I jerry-rigged this three years ago to get it to automatically add entries like goddex etc. to Category:English terms suffixed with -x (gender-neutral). There weren't entries for Spanish terms with the -x suffix at the time, so I guess trying to implement functionality for multiple languages wasn't an issue (and was obviously beyond my noodling)? Thanks for fixing this! WordyAndNerdy (talk) 01:35, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
- @LIrala: Fixed; as stated in the documentation,
- J3133 LIrala (talk) 05:37, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
- Can someone fix the template
This, along with tsendu, was added by @HeliosX in 2019. Supposedly these mean “hundred” in Aromanian. I've searched far and wide and could not find any word for “hundred” in Aromanian other than sutã.
Paging @Catonif and @Word dewd544 as well. Nicodene (talk) 23:46, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
- They are not in the three major Aromanian dictionaries that are digitalized at http://www.dixionline.net/ so either it's a very obscure dialectal word or it's made up. Bogdan (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah I haven't seen it before to be honest. And I agree with Bogdan about it being either very obscure or fabricated. If it is real, it almost sounds like one of those words it borrowed somehow (maybe indirectly) from Italian cento, like tserclju, and adapted somewhat. Word dewd544 (talk) 02:43, 4 April 2025 (UTC)
- RFV-failed, based on the above. Nicodene (talk) 19:50, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: "to haggle". I've never heard it and it seems to only show up in two European dictionaries, so I've marked it with the Portugal label. Can we verify whether or not it's a w:fictitious entry? MedK1 (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
February 2025
[edit]Latin neologisms for superhero and antihero. Added by @TheWikipedian1250. Theknightwho (talk) 11:05, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
Latin. For the Hebrew letter qoph. The Vulgate has coph, and Latin words almost never end in f, even when they're indeclinable. Theknightwho (talk) 20:30, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
Sicilian. Rationale was "Sicilian languages do not use masculine nouns to call trees". Ultimateria (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. I can see capitalized uses of Translingual Bougainvillea in running Portuguese text. Polomo47 (talk) 16:56, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
- As a start, one can check this page. It's a rare use that's neither capitalized nor italicized, and it also spells things weirdly. I might just argue, if three citations are found, that this hasn't been lexicalized. I wonder if RfD is more suitable... Polomo47 (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
Spanish. WT says it means Sicyases sanguineus, but DRAE says it's a synonym for rape (Lophiidae). DRAE describes it as having an "enormous, round, flat head", which in my opinion fits more with Lophiidae. Numberguy6 (talk) 22:21, 24 February 2025 (UTC)
March 2025
[edit]Italian. Rfv-sense: archaic form of leggero
leggère is supposedly an archaic form of leggero (“light”, adjective) with its same inflections: leggera f sg, leggeri m pl, leggere f pl.
I was only able to find this word in the Olivetti[1] further reading. That Olivetti entry has an incorrect pronunciation (The pronunciation of lèggere (verb).)
Other dictionaries don't mention this archaic form.
However Garzanti[2], Hoepli[3], and DOP[4] mention the spelling leggiere, that would be pronounced IPA(key): /ledˈd͡ʒɛ.re/ like leggère. Olivetti also has an entry for this word, but calls it a "literary form" of leggero rather than an "archaic form".[5]
DOP[4] says that archaic leggiere can be used as either m sg or f sg, and there is also leggieri that can be used as either m sg or m pl.
Does the leggere spelling mentioned by Olivetti[1] actually exist? Is it different from leggiere?
References:
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 leggère2 in Dizionario Italiano Olivetti, Olivetti Media Communication
- ^ leggiere in garzantilinguistica.it – Garzanti Linguistica, De Agostini Scuola Spa
- ^ leggiere in Aldo Gabrielli, Grandi Dizionario Italiano (Hoepli)
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 leggero in Bruno Migliorini et al., Dizionario d'ortografia e di pronunzia, Rai Eri, 2025
- ^ leggiere in Dizionario Italiano Olivetti, Olivetti Media Communication
Emanuele6 (talk) 13:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)
furficicchiu
[edit]Sicilian. I can't find any attestation of the word outside of a singular forum post from 2014, including checking Google Books. Aika77 (talk) 14:57, 21 March 2025 (UTC)
Italian.
The ne is pleonastic if you specify [di something]. The ne sounds redundant in this example: you would only use it, maybe, for emphasis in a conversation. ("right dislocation")
- A Giovanni, non gli frega niente di quello
- Giovanni doesn't care one bit about that
- A Giovanni, non gliene frega niente[,] di quello
- Giovanni doesn't care one bit about that
Also, except in some cases (e.g. conditionals/questions) where you can get away with specifying the "someone" only with [a someone], for example:
- dovrebbe fregarne qualcosa a me?
- should I care one bit about it?
- dovrebbe fregarmene qualcosa?
- should I care one bit about it?
- dovrebbe fregarmi qualcosa?
- should I care one bit?
- dovrebbe fregare qualcosa a me?
- should I care one bit?
..I think, in most cases, it is still necessary to use the dative clitic (gli) to make the sentence work even if it should be made redundant by [a someone] (a Giovanni) being specified explicitly.
Also, you almost never actually use fregarne as infinitive for this meaning. You either use fregare with a dative and optionally ne: fregarmi, fregarmene, fregarti, fregartene, fregargli, fregarle, fregargliene, fregarci, fregarcene, fregarvi, fregarvene; or fregare with proclitic pronouns.
I think these senses of fregarne should be moved to fregare#Italian since the ne is not strictly required. And maybe something should be done about these kinds of idiomatic verb meanings that, optionally, strongly require dative clitics.
o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 03:03, 29 March 2025 (UTC)
April 2025
[edit]Portuguese. Rfv-sense: mistake, blunder.
This sense sounds unnatural to me, and it was added by a non-native speaker. Protegmatic (talk) 03:49, 2 April 2025 (UTC)
RFV-failed. MedK1 (talk) 14:39, 16 December 2025 (UTC)- I went and looked at the entry again and somehow just now noticed there's an use case and everything: this seems perfectly natural to me. Looking up "pontapé na gramática" nets you loads of results; it can't stand in for any mistake, but it does stand in for a mistake in the sense you're kicking grammar to the curb by butchering everything or something. I'd actually claim it's an easy pass... MedK1 (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2025 (UTC)
- Priberam also lists "perda, dano, contratempo, azar", so maybe the image is a grammatical accident. Jberkel 15:19, 16 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: Noun sense: the height
Added by Wilhelmlux. Also added an unformatted reference url. - Amgine/ t·e 19:22, 9 April 2025 (UTC)
Old Latin. Gaffiot + Lewis & Short give this, but later works don't and {{R:ine:LIPP|page=592|vol=2}} says the attestation is dubious and doesn't prove long vowel in uls. Already discussed here by Rozwadowski in 1894. @Mellohi! Exarchus (talk) 09:41, 11 April 2025 (UTC)
- I think we should keep the entry, so that we can inform readers about the hypothesis and about evaluations of it by other scholars. I don't think we should keep the length marking on ūls.--Urszag (talk) 13:00, 20 January 2026 (UTC)
French. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 00:22, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
- Here's what I could find:
- pernuiter and pernocter in Middle French (Dictionnaire du Moyen Français (DMF))
- parnuitier in Old French (Dictionnaire Étymologique de l'Ancien Français (DEAF))
- pernocter in Old French (Godefroy, Dictionnaire de l’ancienne langue française et de tous ses dialectes du IXe au XVe siècle (GDF))
- parnuiter (parniter, parnuter, parnuitier) in Norman (Anglo-Norman Dictionary (AND))
- pernoctare (pernuytar) (W. von Wartburg, Französisches etymologisches Wörterbuch: eine Darstellung des galloromanischen Sprachschatzes (FEW))
- These forms are considered obsolete in modern French but all fit the expected French reflexes of pernocto, whereas *parnuire does not. I couldn't find any attestations for that form nor entries in any French dictionary. Io Katai (talk) 23:55, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
- Very good work. Agreed on all points. Nicodene (talk) 12:26, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- These forms are considered obsolete in modern French but all fit the expected French reflexes of pernocto, whereas *parnuire does not. I couldn't find any attestations for that form nor entries in any French dictionary. Io Katai (talk) 23:55, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
Latin. 1sg. is given as 'apiō' by de Vaan and others. None of the quotations indicate the need for a lemma 'apō'. Exarchus (talk) 15:40, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
- Likewise, I did not see any attested forms that point to apo, apere rather than apio, apere. I moved over just about everything to apiō, but should apō be outright deleted now or retained and marked as a ghost word, since some dictionaries list it? Also, should we have an inflection table for apiō? Given its scanty attestation, I'm inclined to say it is better to omit it, but I dunno if others agree.--Urszag (talk) 06:46, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense 2: a beastmaster. Presumably not the video-game senses (Romans weren't big gamers) therefore needs to be the 3rd sense, "a fierce wrestler", distinct from the other Latin sense of one who fights with animals. 2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:4936:1531:AACE:AD57 19:04, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
Old Galician-Portuguese. Williams ("From Latin to Portuguese", 1962) cites the Old Portuguese form of verme as vermem, not vermen. Williams also gives an incompatible etymology for the ending, writing "These nouns generally adopted the masculine ending in the Vulgar Latin of the Spanish territory: nōmen > *nōmĭnem > Sp. nombre. Inasmuch as the ending -ĭnem did not spread in the Vulgar Latin of the Portuguese territory, it is not likely that OPtg. vermem came from a V. L. *vermĭnem nor that OPtg. vimem came from a V. L. *vimĭnem. The spelling vimẽe (FM, II, Glossary) is of no significance as unaccented single vowels were often written double in this document (FM, I, xxv). Nor is it likely that Ptg. sangue came from the Latin masculine form sanguĭnem through an OPtg. *sanguẽ. See Comp, 116. For vermem, see § 96, 2 and for vimem, see § 77 B."; at §96, 2, Willams writes "A nasal consonant ending a group sometimes nasalized the following vowel as an initial consonant did: vermem > verme > vermem (old) ; *remussicare (for re-mussitāre) > remusgar > resmugar > resmungar (cf. Nascentes)." I do see "vermen" listed by Meyer-Lübke. I also found a book that seems to say it can be found in the Cantigas de Santa Maria ("un vermen a semella") but I'm unsure whether that's some kind of normalization, as another book seems to say the spelling is "uˈmẽ": I can find both spellings online (vermen, uermẽ). --Urszag (talk) 15:55, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- @Nicodene Thanks for adding the quotation; would you be able to comment on my concerns about whether this is actually an attestation of the spelling "vermen"? I see that Wiktionary:Old Galician-Portuguese entry guidelines says "Tildes being used to represent nasal vowels followed by another vowel should not be normalised. Spellings whose tilde is used as an abbreviation of n (such as cõ for con and lĩnage for linnage) should be included as abbreviations, with the unabbreviated form lemmatised (even if not attested)", but I don't understand whether this falls under that point, since it doesn't explain how to determine if the tilde is an abbreviation of n. Based on the example "con", should I understand that the convention on Wiktionary is to normalize the spelling of word-final nasal vowels in OGP as vowel + "-n"? That's OK I guess, although I would find tilde a more natural convention for that function. @MedK1, Stríðsdrengur, Froaringus --Urszag (talk) 22:58, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- Funnily enough I hadn’t looked at this thread when I added the quotation. That would’ve saved me the trouble of tracking it down.
- It seems the original manuscripts do in fact have ⟨u̕mẽ⟩:
- 1 (left column, line 24)
- 2 (p 142, left column, line 3)
- As for Williams’ examples, I’m not sure why they couldn’t just as well be explained by a development like hominem > omẽe~ome > homem~home? Nicodene (talk) 10:10, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- For what it is worth, the source is (Old) Galician, and in other coetaneous Galician works the spelling appear to be uermẽe / vermẽe (homẽe, virgẽe, etc), later verme, home, virge.
- http://ilg.usc.gal/xelmirez/xelmirez.php?pescuda=+%5Bvu%5Derm%5Be%E1%BA%BD%5D&corpus=historico Froaringus (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
- Interesting, thank you. Using this resource I have tracked down a manuscript example with plural ⟨v̕me͡es⟩ (source: page 37, line 5). Also worth mentioning are the numerous attestations of nomẽes ‛names’. These disyllabic endings are clearly of the *[-menes] type.
- There are also, it should be mentioned, various modern words with final -em (< *[-ene]) yet without a preceding nasal consonant: ferrugem, fuligem, jovem, ordem.
- Nicodene (talk) 05:38, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- Yes. Actually, in Galician most of these are written (and pronounced) without the nasal: ferruxe, feluxe, xove, orde (but dialectally you can also find ferruxen, xoven, virxen, pronounced with a final /ŋ/ which also usually nasalise the vowel).
- On the form of the word, I understand that ⟨u̕mẽ⟩ should be edited as vermen, but I think that the "standard" form of the word for the 13th century should be the trisyllabic vermẽe. Maybe they used ⟨u̕mẽ⟩ instead because of syllable count or something? Otherwise, maybe bisyllabic renditions of this word, or these kind of words, were already common by the 13th century. Froaringus (talk) 10:02, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- Apparently this cantiga has a ten syllable count for each verse; the verse is "e tiroull'end un vermen a semella": e - ti - rou - llen - dun - ver - men a - se - me - lla. That implies, I think, that here the tilde is not an abbreviation, and that the word should be edited as in "e tiroull'end un vermẽ a semella", so that "mẽ a" counts as a single syllable. But I'm not particularly knowledgeable on this subject, so maybe I'm totally wrong. Froaringus (talk) 10:33, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- Interestingly, in the search results that you shared, it appears the singular is consistently disyllabic and the plural consistently trisyllabic.
- I wonder if it started the same way as alternations like casal~casais < *[kaˈzale~kaˈzales], with an early loss of *[-e] in the singular and then later loss of intervocalic [l] and [n] leading to various allomorphic shenanigans. Nicodene (talk) 11:26, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- @Nicodene: Wow. You're right. I was assuming that spellings such as vermẽe (elsewhere) implied it was trisyllabic, but it's not: in the Cantigas de Santa Maria vermen, home, omage / omagen, virgen, etc, usually have one less syllable than their plurals vermẽes, homẽes (but sometimes homes), omagẽes (sometimes omages): http://www.cantigasdesantamaria.com/concordance/
- On the syllabic count, I was wrong: if a verse ends in an unstressed syllable, this syllable don't counts, so vermen must end in a consonant: e - ti - rou - llen - dun - ver - men - a - se - me - (lla): http://www.cantigasdesantamaria.com/csm/69/44 Froaringus (talk) 09:40, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- Where I wrote "so vermen must end in a consonant", I should have wrote "so maybe vermen must end in a consonant", because I'm not sure at all. Froaringus (talk) 09:56, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- Gotérrez 2016 offers some interesting data/analysis on the subject. Nicodene (talk) 11:51, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- Where I wrote "so vermen must end in a consonant", I should have wrote "so maybe vermen must end in a consonant", because I'm not sure at all. Froaringus (talk) 09:56, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
- Apparently this cantiga has a ten syllable count for each verse; the verse is "e tiroull'end un vermen a semella": e - ti - rou - llen - dun - ver - men a - se - me - lla. That implies, I think, that here the tilde is not an abbreviation, and that the word should be edited as in "e tiroull'end un vermẽ a semella", so that "mẽ a" counts as a single syllable. But I'm not particularly knowledgeable on this subject, so maybe I'm totally wrong. Froaringus (talk) 10:33, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
May 2025
[edit]Latin, for the plural forms.--Urszag (talk) 20:53, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
- Edit for more context: I initially started this RFV based on my suspicion that the invariant "echō" plural forms recently added to the default declension pattern for words of this type were just a theoretical generalization from the singular. After now reading the linked source, I see that the situation is more complicated, so I'm not sure this RFV was really the best reaction. In any case, over the next few days I'll be trying to add citations for the Latin forms.--Urszag (talk) 21:35, 5 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Other dictionaries and grammars say the genitive plural of venter is always ventrium; if ventrum has been used postclassically with this sense, citations and a label should be added. Googling, I see some examples where "ventrum" is used for "ventrem", either as a typo or (accidental?) 3rd-to-2nd declension shift.--Urszag (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
- RFV failed. Relabeled as a misspelling of "ventrem".--Urszag (talk) 20:56, 15 June 2025 (UTC)
- The quote for this entry is in English. Wtf? Are there any in Latin? MedK1 (talk) 20:28, 1 September 2025 (UTC)
- @Urszag Concerning your ping... It was a Latin phrase/word in an English language work. Normally, those actually go under the English L2 despite it being a sentence in Latin. This is especially true in cases where it'd be SOP in Latin but not so in other languages. pro bono, habeas corpus, in medias res.
- We have a cite of English partus sequitur ventrum under the Latin L2, hence my 'what on Earth?'
{{attention}}call. MedK1 (talk) 21:53, 24 December 2025 (UTC)- I feel this is very important. (Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, Benwing2, Lambiam, Mnemosientje, Nicodene, Sartma, Al-Muqanna, SinaSabet28, Theknightwho, Imbricitor, Urszag, Graearms): . MedK1 (talk) 03:57, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- @MedK1 Why is this important? It seems fairly minor to me. The quote "in English" contains a Latin phrase within it that demonstrates the misspelling of ventrem as ventrum so it seems reasonable to use it. Benwing2 (talk) 04:03, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- My comment right above the ping kind of directly answers this. It's not Latin, it's a cite of English partus sequitur ventrum. Per how we treat pro bono and others, this should be an English term. It's in the wrong L2 altogether!! MedK1 (talk) 04:12, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- @MedK1 I added another citation (iratum ventrum in Van der Weerd 1959) that is not in an English word and is not in any kind of set phrase. Fundamentally, I think it makes most sense to attest this here since it is simply a misspelling of the Latin word ventrem which can occur by chance in any term where that word occurs. It might make sense to create an entry for the correctly spelled partus sequitur ventrem as an English phrase (although does every Latin term used in law really deserve an English entry?); I don't think partus sequitur ventrum should ever be anything but a red link. I'll just remove the Latin entry altogether; I'm aware that officially, "Rare misspellings should be excluded while common misspellings should be included", and this isn't really common and is plausibly a typo, so I probably shouldn't have added the misspelling sense. I personally feel that it may be useful to sometimes explicitly have entries for misspellings that could be confused for a real word/form, but that isn't something I had a solid basis for.--Urszag (talk) 07:13, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- @Urszag I think an argument could be made for treating Latin legal and medical terms as Translingual except where they're obviously integrated into English syntax and morphology. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:39, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- That’s what I say. Though it is challenging for editors to assess if they are English-only, which may or may not lead to a term being Translingual anyways, as translingual-in-idea. I had mentioned in previous discussions 19th-century names of the disease bejel, some of the “translingual” translations of which were only ever used by Germans. Fay Freak (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- @Urszag I think an argument could be made for treating Latin legal and medical terms as Translingual except where they're obviously integrated into English syntax and morphology. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:39, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- “How we treat pro bono and others” may not be right. You know how en.Wiktionary started as a monolingual dictionary and due to the extent of coverage those old ones ended up the least correctly formatted, and there are still not the best templates for Translingual other than taxonomy. In the capacity of lawyers and not philologists, the Anglo lawyers don't know whether their terminology is international law, Roman law or the consequent ius commune in Europe – nothing against Box16 recently creating this entry as English, he surely had no time to learn comparative law, and the Usonians also have the most expensive country for education.
- In these cases it is more appropriate to create translingual entries, and I converted ius cogens / ius dispositivum to it since it is brooked in other languages and it is stilted to have separate sections for an obvious foreign term. Then again English is so teeming with foreignisms and has so unintuitive an orthography that people unlearned (to a degree I know not, as a non-native) to have this category of obvious foreign terms.
- But incompetent misspellings – a particular consequence of the English “traditional” pronunciation slackness – don't make an entry, it’s the risk you take if you try to appear to be smart by using exotic words, and there is no way we can have a Latin misspelling attested from English texts unless the term found in the English texts should indeed be neither under English nor Translingual but Latin. So Urszag correctly deleted the “Latin” with English quote. Fay Freak (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- FWIW, the Catalogue of Life has but one taxon using ventrum: †Eocyclostomiceras ventrum Chen, 1983 (also †Eocyclostomiceras subventrum. Apparently it just refers to the presumed "underside" of the fossil specimen. It may have to do with the positioning of the siphuncle of this cephalopod. DCDuring (talk) 17:55, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- @MedK1 I added another citation (iratum ventrum in Van der Weerd 1959) that is not in an English word and is not in any kind of set phrase. Fundamentally, I think it makes most sense to attest this here since it is simply a misspelling of the Latin word ventrem which can occur by chance in any term where that word occurs. It might make sense to create an entry for the correctly spelled partus sequitur ventrem as an English phrase (although does every Latin term used in law really deserve an English entry?); I don't think partus sequitur ventrum should ever be anything but a red link. I'll just remove the Latin entry altogether; I'm aware that officially, "Rare misspellings should be excluded while common misspellings should be included", and this isn't really common and is plausibly a typo, so I probably shouldn't have added the misspelling sense. I personally feel that it may be useful to sometimes explicitly have entries for misspellings that could be confused for a real word/form, but that isn't something I had a solid basis for.--Urszag (talk) 07:13, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- My comment right above the ping kind of directly answers this. It's not Latin, it's a cite of English partus sequitur ventrum. Per how we treat pro bono and others, this should be an English term. It's in the wrong L2 altogether!! MedK1 (talk) 04:12, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- @MedK1 Why is this important? It seems fairly minor to me. The quote "in English" contains a Latin phrase within it that demonstrates the misspelling of ventrem as ventrum so it seems reasonable to use it. Benwing2 (talk) 04:03, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- I feel this is very important. (Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, Benwing2, Lambiam, Mnemosientje, Nicodene, Sartma, Al-Muqanna, SinaSabet28, Theknightwho, Imbricitor, Urszag, Graearms): . MedK1 (talk) 03:57, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. Praenomina were highly restricted and women often didn't have one. Wikipedia has an entry for w:Claudia Marcella, which indicates this occurred as an cognomen of the Claudia gens: I wonder if that sense was mislabeled.--Urszag (talk) 09:28, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. It undoubtedly can be used as a gentilic name.--Urszag (talk) 09:38, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. Doesn't appear on Wikipedia's list of feminine praenomina.--Urszag (talk) 09:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. Doesn't appear on Wikipedia's list of feminine praenomina.--Urszag (talk) 09:44, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. Doesn't appear on Wikipedia's list of feminine praenomina.--Urszag (talk) 09:46, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. Doesn't appear on Wikipedia's list of feminine praenomina.--Urszag (talk) 09:48, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense: praenomen. Doesn't appear on Wikipedia's list of feminine praenomina. The legendary w:Verginia seems to be a family name, since she's the daughter of Lucius Verginius.--Urszag (talk) 09:51, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
June 2025
[edit]Italian. prudemmo, pruderai, pruderei, pruderemmo, pruderemo, prudereste, pruderesti, pruderete, pruderò, prudessi, prudessimo, prudeste, prudesti, prudete, prudevamo, prudevate, prudevi, prudevo, prudi, prudiate, prudo
I don't think this verb is ever used as anything other than third-person in dative constructions.
It is defective of past participle; DOP says it is third-person only; Treccani and Garzanti don't say it explicitly, but only show third-person examples, and conjugations. o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 15:17, 7 June 2025 (UTC)
- It seems that e.g. "prudevo" can be found on Google Books in some books
- Here are all the four results found:
- 1876, Bollettino del Club Alpino Italiano[44], volume 10, number 25:
- […] e prudevo dal desiderio di arrampicarmi […]
- […] and I prudevo from the desire to climb […]
- 2007, Cristina Ali Farah, Madre piccola[47], →ISBN:
- […] più andava avanti con i racconti […] più prudevo di nervosismo.
- […] the more he continued telling his tales […] the more I prudevo of nervousness.
- Except maybe for the second one
prudevo eccome
for which I cannot see more context on Google Books, its use seems to be similar to English itch sense 2. o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 16:05, 7 June 2025 (UTC) - FWIW, Garzanti updated its website, and now the entry I linked explicitly mentions the non-third-person past historic inflections in its headword. Emanuele6 (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2025 (UTC)
This seems to be a misspelling of 𐌅𐌉𐌍𐌖. The spelling "uimu" is not mentioned by Buck, Poultney, De Vaan, or Ancillotti. Graearms (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. One of those automated creations from a while back. I wonder how to find this — likely an obsolete spelling. Polomo47 (talk) 23:30, 18 June 2025 (UTC)
- I believe I've found it. However, I couldn't get Ctrl+F to find it when actually getting into the page. MedK1 (talk) 20:55, 1 September 2025 (UTC)
Italian. Rfv-sense: to return, come back
Does this really exist? I cannot find it in other dictionaries.
I only know tornarsene.
The only case in which you can, maybe, say mi torno that I can think of is tornarsi a prendere ...: mi torno a prendere ...; example found in the wild:
- Quasi quasi mi torno a prendere il W5000[48]
- I am thinking about going back to get the W5000
- (literally, “Almost almost for myself I return to take the W5000”)
But I think, the reflexive here applies to prendere ("I take for myself"), not to tornare: it is just an equivalent form of tornare a prendersi, torno a prendermi. o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 03:45, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
- Maybe this definition is supposed to be e.g. (si torna a scuola ― [roughly] It's time to go back to school (literally, “one returns to school”)) which is just tornare + (indefinite) si; not a reflexive. Emanuele6 (talk) 19:21, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
Italian. Compound of past participle avuto (“had”) + dative clitic gli (“to him(/them/her)”).
I don't understand how this combination can exist:
I think e.g. gli ho can only occur followed by a past participle to form a compound tense, e.g. gli ho detto ― I (have) told him.
I don't think it is possible to form a "compound past participle" with past participle "avuto" as auxiliary (*avutogli detto), and I cannot think of any use of avere meant as "to have" that can accept a dative, so I cannot think of a way to use this avutogli. Emanuele6 (talk) 12:19, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
- P.S. it is currently misclassified as "verb form" instead of past participle, so fix that if it passes rfv. Emanuele6 (talk) 12:22, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Emanuele6 I don't know much about Italian, but I suspect the term may appear here:
- [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] Graearms (talk) 00:13, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Graearms Four of your links are quite clearly avuto gli (literally “ […] had(past participle) the(definite article m pl) […] ”).
- But [3] is interesting:
- Lutero, avutogli lungamente riguardo o compassione, e celiato sulla sua pretesa di «camminar sopra le ova senza schiacciarle», e ripetutogli che «lo Spirito santo non è scettico», al fine gli lanciò una lettera delle sue, e ripetute ingiurie cordiali (I).
- Italian avere riguardo (literally “to have regard”) means to care about something or someone, but you would not normally use it with "a someone", so I wouldn't expect a dative to work there: "per ...", "di ...", or avutone would work. To make a comparison with English, it's like saying "I had him respect" (as in "I payed him respect") instead of "I had respect for him" or "I had respect of him".
- As expected you cannot find many use of "avergli riguardo": on Google Books, "gli ho riguardo" and "gli ho avuto riguardo" both yield only one result each:
- Il Gondoliere [The Gondolier][49] (in Italian), volume ANNO SECONDO, number 1, 1834, page 66: “[…] chiunque trovo in casa altrui bene accetto, io gli ho riguardo […]”
- Lodovico Dolce, transl. (1508–1568), Le orazioni di Marco Tullio Cicerone, tradotte da m. Lodovico Dolce[50] (in Italian), translation of The orations by Cicero, published 1727, Parte 2, page 347: “[…] per questo gli ho avuto riguardo […]”
- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Emanuele6 (talk) 11:04, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- (Notifying Benwing2, GianWiki, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia, Sartma, Catonif, Trimpulot): Delete? Use these three quotations to create a lemma for avere riguardo [(archaic) with dative]? Am I missing something and there are some contexts in which avutogli (or generally avergli with avere not used as auxiliary) still makes sense? Emanuele6 (talk) 15:04, 25 October 2025 (UTC)
Sicilian. Rationale was "This entry is a creole blend of Italian "giorno" and Sicilian "jornu"." Ultimateria (talk) 21:10, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
- Any time you have a regional language dominated by a related language which is the national standard, things get messy. It looks like interpreting results is going to be tricky.
- I wonder how Sicilian ghiornu figures into this: both are said to be alternative forms of Sicilian jornu in different environments. Also, the two senses are redundant, since Sicilian jornu has the same definition as the first sense. If we get rid of the first sense, that might mean we would have to look for jornu / [+nasal] giornu / [+vowel] ghiornu to verify this. I would also note the existence of Sicilian bon giornu. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:04, 19 June 2025 (UTC)
And other linked pages like tunnelli and tunnelle. It could be a cross-wiki vandalism (all interwikis are recent creations by new user or IPs). I search on dictionaries online and I found nothing. Otourly (talk) 16:13, 24 June 2025 (UTC)
- I found it used as a gloss in James & Grassi (1893), which at least suggests it is not vandalism. Also mentioned in a 1926 journal article. There appear to be actual uses in the results on Google Books but I have not access to them. —Desacc̱oinṯier 20:40, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
French. Rfv-sense, both noun senses:
This was added by an IP geolocating to England back in 2017. Another IP, geolocating to the US, doesn't think this is real, and has tried several times to just remove it.
In case they're reading this: We're a descriptive dictionary based on usage, not on authoritative aources, and this is a good example of why it's necessary sometimes. Vulgar slang is often ignored by reference works/sites, and many native speakers either don't frequent places it's used or want others to believe they don't- so it requires checking for usage before we can be sure it's not real.
If there's no usage, it will be deleted and documentation left on the entry's talk page so people will know not to add it back. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:00, 26 June 2025 (UTC)
- I recommend that both senses/the noun section for "prit" in French be removed. I've never heard these and can't find any usage online. They also don't appear to be Verlan. The definitions also look like they were copy-pasted from the Oxford English dictionary definition for "prick". Io Katai (talk) 23:15, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
- Delete the noun section. I've also never heard it and have found zero online attestation. Utterly spurious. Voltaigne (talk) 15:33, 12 August 2025 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. MedK1 (talk) 04:20, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
Portuguese. I see the first usually spelled xenônio, and the second I don’t see at all. Polomo47 (talk) 02:08, 28 June 2025 (UTC)
July 2025
[edit]Latin. This is claimed to be an (unattested) nominative of attested Greek accusative elacatena, but the quote from Festus seems to show that elacatena is the nominative. L&S meanwhile have a quote from Pliny that is supposed to attest a Greek plural elacatenes, but this quote (even per L&S) is dubious. The quote here: [51] has ictinus, iulis instead. Benwing2 (talk) 04:23, 13 July 2025 (UTC)
- The Festus quote doesn't seem to be a complete sentence: rather, it's a gloss of a particular word (taken from I don't know where). I don't see a reason why the accusative singular would not be possible here: compare " Elinguem sine lingua", where "elinguem" is obviously accusative singular. By the way, the template isn't linking consistently to the right page on archive.org for me when I click the links on elacaten and vespillo; is there some bug in how the url is being formatted for Template:RQ:Paul.Fest.?--Urszag (talk) 04:43, 13 July 2025 (UTC)
- I support Urszag’s argument. It worked like that, in other glossaries as well. There is also some propensity for it with respect to accusativus cum infinitivo. Fay Freak (talk) 01:57, 9 August 2025 (UTC)
August 2025
[edit]Latin. Rfv-sense: "thorn, spine, prickle". Added by an editor who doesn't seem to have any idea what they are doing. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 14:19, 3 August 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Tagged, but not listed, by User:Protegmatic. I’ll try to attest this. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 14:49, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- I think we list it backwards, the lemma should be getuliar. Trooper57 (talk) 19:53, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. I am suspicious of sense 1 because it seems like the kind of thing dictionaries would have, but they don’t; and suspicious of sense 2 because Aulete lists it as being capitalized. I plan to attest it myself (later), but tagging either way. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 14:50, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- To be fair, Aulete says it's only sometimes capitalized. MedK1 (talk) 01:57, 29 August 2025 (UTC)
Spanish. Rfv-sense: a noun-forming suffix that is the "female equivalent of -ino".
The only Spanish female equivalent noun that we currently categorize in Category:Spanish terms suffixed with -ina is filipina, but I think it may make more sense to view this as a nominalization/substantivization of the feminine adjective form filipina, rather than as the product of distinct suffixation (Felipe + -ina).
The same probably applies generally to nouns ending in -ina in Spanish female equivalent nouns that are equivalents of nouns denoting a male that end in -ino (unless there are some exceptions I've missed).
Also, the entry for -ino/-ina in the Real Academia Española's dictionary doesn't appear to have a sense directly corresponding to this one.
See also the discussion at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2025/August#Label_"female_equivalent", which provided the impetus for this Rfv. Voltaigne (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- This should be at WT:RFDI tbh. MedK1 (talk) 20:56, 1 September 2025 (UTC)
African Romance. loki piper pake orator locus ispes dilectus carus bita akina. Created by @Pescavelho. — Fenakhay (حيطي · مساهماتي) 19:11, 8 August 2025 (UTC)
- That all falls under the category of ‘Latin’. Nicodene (talk) 19:44, 8 August 2025 (UTC)
I can't find any reference for Latin cramum. Was prehaps the entire article created by mistake instead of cremum? --Grufo (talk) 04:52, 9 August 2025 (UTC)
- As I mentioned on Latin Wikipedia – Disputatio:Cremor § Cramum an cremum? – it seems that cramum/cremum are hapax legomena from a single poem by Venantius Fortunatus. As David Morgan writes,
Cramum nullo in lexico inveni, sive antiquae sive mediae Latinitatis, nisi in Alberti Blaise priore; usurpatum est Venantio Fortunato uno in loco; ambigitur tam de vocabuli significatu quam de modo scribendi (cramum an crama), ut accidere solet in ἅπαξ λεγόμενοις. Memorant etiam Ernout-Meillet et Walde-Hoffman, eundem Fortunati locum afferentes. Hoc pseudolexidion, ut ita dicam, Saravici videntur in medium proposuisse etymologis fisi quibusdam, qui illinc vocabulum Gallicum crème deducunt. At haec etymologia plus quam dubia est; ab OED non accipitur, iure quidem, quando crama ex mutationum phoneticarum normis in sermone Gallico vigentibus necessario, ni fallor, craime dedisset (ita aime ab ama[t], haim ab hamo); scribebatur autem medio aevo cresme, quod vocabulum chrismate exortum videtur, ut exponitur apud OED aliosque.”
- Therefore both cramum and cremum should be treated as dubious, and only cremor should be treated as the attested (classical) Latin word for “cream”. --Grufo (talk) 03:55, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
Latin interjection. Mayrhofer calls this a ghost word at {{R:sa:KEWA|head=dhik|page=102|vol=2}}. Walde & Hofmann call it a wrong conjecture in a text of Plautus. But maybe there are (much) later attestations. Exarchus (talk) 11:58, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
September 2025
[edit]Spanish. Did a quick search and couldn't find much, I think it's another case of authors ignoring Old Spanish. Trooper57 (talk) 17:09, 2 September 2025 (UTC)
Spanish. Calque from English, name of a book? — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 23:49, 11 September 2025 (UTC)
- This is an ancient term, calqued from Occitan. See gay science. Jberkel 08:32, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: "to wash down". Maybe the creator meant sense 3? — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 18:29, 15 September 2025 (UTC)
- Creator in question is @Daniel Carrero. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 18:30, 15 September 2025 (UTC)
- I can see it as a subsense of sense 1. MedK1 (talk) 14:26, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. RFV for the singular forms, tenebra (nominative and vocative singulars), tenebrae (genitive and dative singulars), tenebram (accusative singular), and tenebrā (ablative singular). 0DF (talk) 02:09, 18 September 2025 (UTC)
- AFAICT the singular is very easily attested in medieval and later Latin. this quotes John Duns' Quaestiones Metaphysicae II 2-3,80 as containing the lines visus videt tenebram and phantasia imaginatur tenebram, this reproduces Lauge Olaf Nielsen, Petri Aureoli Quaestio ⁊ Quodlibeti (The Quodlibet of Peter Auriol), "sed actualem poterit, sicut et caelum recipit lumen et tenebram"; "quod removeat tenebram a domo, nisi aperiat prohibens lucem, scilicet fenestram, et lux ipsa removet tenebram, ita in potestate"; [52]; "Et cum ego frater resisterem ei de praedicta tenebra et non intelligerem.", "Exemplum secundi de Deo qui dicitur tenebra et caligo per superexcessum.", etc. (Cited.) But it seems unlikely that we should repeat the definitions in both places; probably the singular can just be defined as the "singular of" the main (plural) entry(?). - -sche (discuss) 16:36, 20 September 2025 (UTC)
- @-sche: Thank you. Should we have it as a soft-redirecting Mediaeval-form entry? If so, is tenebra uncountable? 0DF (talk) 15:52, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
- I've soft-redirected it using
{{singular of}}. I left the descendants tables (each entry has one, with different descendants); if anyone wants to merge them (and perhaps qualify forms by whether they are, or are from, the singular or plural?), I leave that to them. - -sche (discuss) 06:25, 30 September 2025 (UTC)
- I've soft-redirected it using
- @-sche: OK. And I've made it singulare tantum. 0DF (talk) 11:17, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
- ...why? The plural exists; is there evidence that the plural and singular don't coexist? The results at e.g. google books:"tenebra" "tenebrae" "et" suggests it at least sometimes functions as a regular (inflecting) word, like darkness. - -sche (discuss) 05:57, 6 October 2025 (UTC)
- @-sche: Well, because all this word's senses (with the possible exception of “prison, dungeon”, of which I'm a little sceptical) are uncountable, primâ facie. That said, I found a genuine plural use of tenebrae to mean “darknesses” by Leibniz. Then I thought I'd found a comparable plural use of tenebra in a Persian–Latin dictionary; however, given that that dictionary uses tenebrae and tenebrarum elsewhere in that entry, that tenebrae occurs nine times in the work, and that tenebra never occurs (the OCR thinks it does once, but that's because tenebrarum occurs hyphenated across a line break as tenebra-rum on page 555/1), I'm inclined to think that Vullers simply erred in using the wrong numeral (cardinal instead of distributive), meaning to write trinae tenebrae. So it appears that tenebrae can be used countably, albeit rarely. The question is, does that countable usage carry over to tenebra? It would be reasonable to expect that it would, but we should verify that it does before asserting that it does. I don't see such usage amongst the first page of hits for that Google Books search, only uncountable uses in the sense “darkness”, employing tenebra and/or tenebrae to convey it indiscriminately. 0DF (talk) 06:49, 30 November 2025 (UTC)
- As long as it's defined as "singular of [plural]", then (to me, at least) it makes no sense to say it doesn't have a plural. Even if it were redefined as "synonym of [plural]" instead, given that sufficient texts use both forms together, it still seems nonsensical (to me) to posit that we're dealing with a singular-only noun and a plural-only noun that merely look like—but are somehow not—each other's singular and plural, in the texts where they co-occur. From my perspective, this is RFV-passed as it stands (revision), but let's ping the Latin workgroup for input: (Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, Benwing2, Lambiam, Mnemosientje, Nicodene, Sartma, Al-Muqanna, SinaSabet28, Theknightwho, Imbricitor, Urszag, Graearms): . - -sche (discuss) 03:32, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- @-sche I think it depends on the semantics. If a word and its formal plural exist but mean the same thing (i.e. the formal plural does not mean the plural of the corresponding formal singular), then you have a singulare tantum and a plurale tantum that are synonyms of each other, not a singular-plural pair. If the formal plural can either be a synonym of the formal singular or mean the plural of the formal singular, then I would posit you have to have two POS entries, one of which is a plurale tantum noun and the other is a plural noun form. (An example where this occurs in English is "glasses", which can either be a plurale tantum meaning "eyeglasses/spectacles" or the plural of "glass" in its countable senses.) It doesn't trouble me to have both a singulare tantum and a plurale tantum that look like a singular-plural pair; this is a common situation due to the way plurale tantum nouns evolve (e.g. "glasses" = spectacles evolved from "glasses" = plural of "glass"). Benwing2 (talk) 04:08, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- @-sche @0DF In this case, lemmatise at the plural, but include the singular in the table and put a usage note explaining the nuance.
- On a related note, simply putting "singular of" is not ideal for tenebra. It's the nominative singular, so if we're not going to lemmatise at it, then we at least need to be accurate about its morphology. Theknightwho (talk) 04:12, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- As long as it's defined as "singular of [plural]", then (to me, at least) it makes no sense to say it doesn't have a plural. Even if it were redefined as "synonym of [plural]" instead, given that sufficient texts use both forms together, it still seems nonsensical (to me) to posit that we're dealing with a singular-only noun and a plural-only noun that merely look like—but are somehow not—each other's singular and plural, in the texts where they co-occur. From my perspective, this is RFV-passed as it stands (revision), but let's ping the Latin workgroup for input: (Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, Benwing2, Lambiam, Mnemosientje, Nicodene, Sartma, Al-Muqanna, SinaSabet28, Theknightwho, Imbricitor, Urszag, Graearms): . - -sche (discuss) 03:32, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- I stand corrected, and also now realize that some of the works which use both tenebra and tenebrae, google books:"tenebra est" "tenebrae sunt" / google books:"est tenebra" "sunt tenebrae", are using tenebrae as the dative/genitive rather than plural ("...in se ipso tenebrae sunt...", ""tenebra+est"+"tenebrae+sunt"&dq="tenebra+est"+"tenebrae+sunt"&printsec=frontcover ...in qua tenebrae sunt..."), and some of the ones I can find that do clearly use both sg. and pl., e.g. "haec tenebra" "hae tenebrae", are doing so in giving multiple readings of the same line. But what do y'all make of this (a) and this (b)? - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- I would add that there are examples of the singular forms "tenebra" and "tenebram" in the Patrilogia Latina database (25 and 5, respectively). E.g.,
- Aldhelmus Schireburnensis, "Epistola ad acircium, sive liber de septenario...":
- "Da exempla ad amphibrachym pertinentia.--M. Haec sunt nomina primae declinationis, eamdem pedis regulam astipulantia, ut corona, carina, lacerna, acerva, acerra, arena, arista, papilla, mamilla, capella, catena, popina, culina, amurca, tabella, querela, locusta, marisca, rubeta, pharetra, camina, sagitta, loquela, medulla, medella, taberna, caverna, caterva, latebra, tenebra."
- Given the relative rarity of the form and the general opinion that it's erroneous, I think the current solution of marking "tenebra" as the singular of the usual "tenebrae" works well and the RFV can be removed. 3charles3 (talk) 06:23, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
- Patrologia Latina, of course... 3charles3 (talk) 06:24, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
guardaraglio and its synonyms
[edit]guardaraglio, guardrail, guardavia, guidovia, guardastrada. Italian words which I have not spotted uses of; RFV per the discussion with DanielParoliere at User talk:Surjection#Some rare Italian words doesn't exist or are invented. This is a trial balloon for the larger set of words discussed there; if these fail and seem to have been made-up by various authors in early decades and never caught on, we need to RFV other words from that set; if it seems like User:DanielParoliere himself made-up non-existent words, feel free to close the RFV and deal with the words more speedily as far as I am concerned. - -sche (discuss) 16:18, 20 September 2025 (UTC)
- Guardavia is included in these dictionaries ([53], [54], [55], [56], [57]), sicurvia in these ones ([58], [59], [60], [61]), guardastrada is included in one dictionary ([62]) and guidovia is a Helvetism included only in this Swiss site in Italian ([63]) and these are all correct. The words guardavia and sicurvia are sometimes used in technical-bureaucratic contexts, and guidovia is used sometimes on Swiss websites in Italian, such as RSI or Ticinonline, especially in road accidents' contexts, happened in Ticino or Grisons' cantons, in Switzerland. Exists also a rare Italian song called Guardavia, sung by Mal di mare in 2020, that you can find on the web ([64]). And the word guardastrada is only used in the phrase La lamiera ondulata per i manufatti tubolari metallici e per le barriere guardastrada. I didn't find a dictionary which is included guardaraglio. What do you think? DanielParoliere (talk) 15:04, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm; if a word is used (not just mentioned in a dictionary as a word that exists, but used in running text, e.g. in a news article about a car crash or roadwork, or in an ordinance about how roads are to be constructed, etc) by three or more people (over more than one year), it can be included, even if it is rare or regional (in which case, it can be
{{label}}ed as such). On the other hand, if an Italian word only appears in dictionaries but is not used, it doesn't meet WT:ATTEST. - -sche (discuss) 16:20, 24 September 2025 (UTC)- Also I didn't find a dictionary which are included the words guardaraile and guardarailo (used jokingly by the famous Genoese comedian Maurizio Lastrico: [65]). DanielParoliere (talk) 15:23, 4 October 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm; if a word is used (not just mentioned in a dictionary as a word that exists, but used in running text, e.g. in a news article about a car crash or roadwork, or in an ordinance about how roads are to be constructed, etc) by three or more people (over more than one year), it can be included, even if it is rare or regional (in which case, it can be
October 2025
[edit]It’s like an alien made this entry. Could’ve gone to WT:RFD just as well. ―K(ə)tom (talk) 18:45, 5 October 2025 (UTC)
- RFV failed. ―K(ə)tom (talk) 23:25, 2 January 2026 (UTC)
Middle French. The oldest mention in a French text seems to be in d'Abbeville (1614, four years after the cut date), and we're considering it as an Old Tupi attestation in mani'oka. Trooper57 (talk) 23:43, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
Catalan.
This seems to be an error caused by ignorance of the difference between Catalan and Old Catalan, as shown by the listing of an Old French descendant (as I understand it, modern Catalan didn't develop from Old Catalan until after Old French had already developed into Middle French). This seems to be from a misreading of the American Heritage Dictionary entry linked to at English orchil, which clearly states this is Old Catalan. There are similar errors scattered throughout the etymologies of related terms, along with a general sloppiness with language codes and other details. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:31, 12 October 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Googling um coño
only displayed results for um cono
, which usually happens when all results of the former have been shown. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 01:30, 13 October 2025 (UTC)
Possible full page deletion:
- Portuguese and Spanish pecadas
- Portuguese, Spanish, and Catalan pecada
Entry deletion:
Participle deletion:
From the responses I got on WT:Discord, it seems to me that those participle forms are not actually possible. Those languages always use Portuguese ter, Spanish haber, Catalan haver as auxiliary for the active voice considering their modern standard version, and going by Wiktionary's defintions; so an inflected past participle is strictly only possible for transitive verbs, and there are no special rules that allow them in other cases like there are in Italian (reflexives forcing the use of essere). Additionally, even ignoring that, the Italian cognate of pecar, Italian peccare uses avere as auxiliary while being an intransitive verb in a lanugage like Italian that has some intransitive verbs that use essere as non-passive auxiliary; agreement of past participles with their subject only occurs when the auxiliary is essere, not haver/haber/ter/avere.
Italian peccati, peccate, peccata: Italian peccato's inflected forms just failed RFV. #peccataSpecial:Permalink/87430801#peccata
Since even in Italian those forms cannot pass RFV, they will likely fail it in those languages as well.
If this RFV fails, those other pages linking those forms should be fixed too:
- Portuguese, Spanish, and Catalan pecar's conjugation table
- Portuguese and Spanish pecado's headword
- Portuguese peccado's headword
- Portuguese peccar's conjugation table
- Catalan pecat's headword
o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 18:23, 13 October 2025 (UTC)
- Ping @Embryomystic: you are the only human who's edited pecadas, pecada. Emanuele6 (talk) 19:04, 13 October 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm, maybe they were automated edits; sorry. Emanuele6 (talk) 20:14, 13 October 2025 (UTC)
- (Notifying Benwing2, Jberkel, Ultimateria, Vriullop, Linguoboy): Pinging Catalan editors in case I have missed something about Catalan grammar that would allow those past participle forms to exist; also in case they can come up with a non-participle sense of Catalan pecada to save the page from deletion (cfr. Italian peccata f pl archaic plural of peccato m). o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 03:20, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- Catalan pecat is also a rare adjective for "damaged, imperfect", cited in the DCVB and other old dictionaries. Vriullop (talk) 08:49, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- Here is a link to the DCVB entry: 2. PECAT, -ADA adj.
- @Vriullop Thank you: if you add that, [[pecada]] will be saved from deletion.
- What do you say about the inflected past participle senses? Do you think they can exist, or should they be deleted?
- o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 12:58, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- You're right, as a pure intransitive verb the past participle is invariable. As an adjective I have not found any attestation. I suspect that it must be a past participle in Old Catalan when the verb had a transitive sense. Without further evidence I prefer not to change it and it can be removed. Vriullop (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for confirming! I updated the Catalan pages accordingly; like in Portuguese, you can prevent the conjugation table from showing inflected past participle using
{{ca-conj|<pp_inv>}}; currently,{{ca-pp}}does not support|inv=1, so I've temporarily used{{ca-pp|-|pl=-}}instead. - RFV-failed for Catalan. Emanuele6 (talk) 14:48, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
currently,
; that was because MOD:ca-headword works differently; with MOD:it-headword, MOD:es-headword, MOD:pt-headword, terms are marked invariable with the "inv" named parameter; while with the Catalan module, this is done passing inv as the first positional parameter.{{ca-pp}}does not support|inv=1- So
{{ca-conj|<pp_inv>}}in conjugation tables, and{{ca-pp|inv}}in the headword of past participles. o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 15:02, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for confirming! I updated the Catalan pages accordingly; like in Portuguese, you can prevent the conjugation table from showing inflected past participle using
- You're right, as a pure intransitive verb the past participle is invariable. As an adjective I have not found any attestation. I suspect that it must be a past participle in Old Catalan when the verb had a transitive sense. Without further evidence I prefer not to change it and it can be removed. Vriullop (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
- Catalan pecat is also a rare adjective for "damaged, imperfect", cited in the DCVB and other old dictionaries. Vriullop (talk) 08:49, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- I’m not sure Module:pt-verb a parameter to stop it from displaying feminine and plural past participles. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 16:16, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Polomo It does, actually! See Portuguese ser's conjugation table; for headwords, the convention seems to be
{{pt-pp|inv=1}}, see Portuguese sido's headword, n.b. I made that specific edit WT:RFC#sidoSpecial:Permalink/87439520#sido. Portuguese estado was already doing it, so I followed what it was doing. - For ser, the rule is hardcoded in MOD:pt-verb's
built_in_conjugationstable, but you can get the same result without editing the module by simply using{{pt-conj|<pp_inv>}}. Emanuele6 (talk) 16:29, 15 October 2025 (UTC)- Great. Switched it at pecar; listed it as an example in the documentation Template:pt-verb/documentation. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 17:22, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- Awesome! Since you did that for pecar, I went ahead and did the same for peccar, changed pecado and peccado, deleted the participle sense of pecados, and delete the Portuguese L2s from [[peccada]], and [[peccadas]].
- RFV-failed for Portuguese. Catalan and Spanish awaiting responses. Emanuele6 (talk) 17:33, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- There are a lot of nouns formed with -ada that are used exclusively in the constructions dar uma Xada], like dar uma comida (“to eat”), dar uma andada (“to walk”). pecada might exist in this context, but indeed not as a past participle. On this note, we have very few of these entries. @Davi6596 because he might know something about this. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 17:30, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- Italian has mangiata which is sort of the equivalent of Portuguese comida; anyway comida would exist as a past participle in passive constructions, or adjectivally "that has been eaten" (at least in Italian also adverbially "mangiata la torta," = "after having eaten the cake,").
- The Italian equivalent of Portuguese andada would be camminata that is currently defined as
{{it-deverbal fpp}}noun; Italian camminato is already defined as an "invariable" past participle. o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 17:40, 15 October 2025 (UTC)- I mean comida in a different noun sense than the one we have currently; same with caminhada. Those can both be used in the constructions dar uma X-ada, but they’re not exclusive to them. The words I mean have kind of the meaning “an instance of X-ing”, which means dar uma pecada has more or less the same nuances as English do some sinning. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 17:52, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- I see: I understand what you mean; from the description: far(e) una X-ata (or irregular past participle like corsa; with fare (“to do”) instead of dar (“to give”)) would be the same thing in Italian. (Actually dare would also work in some contexts)
- I wouldn't say those are participles: they definitely don't feel like an inflection of the masculine singular sense at least.
- It is not all that uncommon to hear things like fare una ripassata (ripassare study review), or studiata, sometimes with intensifiers like tattica (“tactical”), or adjectives applied to it, often also with diminutives like -ina, -etta, both, or whatever; it is definitely productive, but when it is used productively like this it is mostly jocular (except for the common ones like dormita, scorpacciata, mangiata, corsa, messa al bando, etc, etc) though, especially when all these diminutives and intensifiers are added to it, and when they are used in place of a non--ata deverbal that exists e.g. saying fare una tarata in place of fare una taratura.
- I think the deverbal noun definition makes more sense to me than participle given the suffixes it takes and that it is not agreeing with some subject despite being inflected; Italian -ata has it as its first noun-forming suffix definition, but indeed the way this deverbal noun is formed is with the feminine singular participle inflection, not always -ata: corsa, messa al bando, etc.
- Curious to see what you guys think. o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 18:40, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- I mean comida in a different noun sense than the one we have currently; same with caminhada. Those can both be used in the constructions dar uma X-ada, but they’re not exclusive to them. The words I mean have kind of the meaning “an instance of X-ing”, which means dar uma pecada has more or less the same nuances as English do some sinning. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 17:52, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Polomo Yes, pecada exists only as a noun and is attestable (if it weren't attestable, it'd be plausible due to the productivity of -ada) but not as a past participle. Davi6596 (talk) 21:13, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- Great. Switched it at pecar; listed it as an example in the documentation Template:pt-verb/documentation. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 17:22, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Polomo It does, actually! See Portuguese ser's conjugation table; for headwords, the convention seems to be
- (Notifying Benwing2, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, Ultimateria, Koavf, AG202): Do you think the participle senses of Spanish pecados, pecada, pecadas should be deleted? Emanuele6 (talk) 14:50, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not a native Spanish speaker but since Spanish doesn't have any sort of participle agreement in present perfect constructions, it seems plausible to me that pecadas etc. are unattestable and should be deleted. Benwing2 (talk) 04:43, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
- I concur. I think we should mark it as RFV-failed for Spanish already. MedK1 (talk) 23:31, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not a native Spanish speaker but since Spanish doesn't have any sort of participle agreement in present perfect constructions, it seems plausible to me that pecadas etc. are unattestable and should be deleted. Benwing2 (talk) 04:43, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
- RFV-failed for all languages listed here. MedK1 (talk) 14:33, 16 December 2025 (UTC)
- Galician, Asturian and Spanish conjugation tables are still linking to pecada and pecadas. I don’t know how to change that / if it should be changed. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 06:40, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
French. Is/was this -ou- spelling actually used? French wikipedia appears to exclusively use "Tokugawa". Horse Battery (talk) 01:13, 14 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Horse Battery: Yes. See [66], [67], [68], and [69]. 0DF (talk) 06:12, 30 November 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Tagged by @Sarilho1 in 2022, but not listed. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 18:51, 15 October 2025 (UTC)
French+PortugueseVealhurl (talk) 22:01, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
Latin. There are serious problems with this entry. This word, to my knowledge at the moment (admittedly not exhaustively deep, but I looked through the major dictionaries) is not attested in Roman Latin, even very late Roman Latin. It is probably not even attested in Medieval Latin. Where is it attested? Sources say, in Ptolemy's Greek, as Καρπάτης ὄρος. This word in Greek is not even plural: it is singular. For that matter, mountain ranges in Latin could be routinely named in the singular, like the Appennīnus. But maybe the Greek name transmits a Latin form close to its pronunciation. In any case, the problem is that the word is apparently not even attested in Roman era Latin and, if it is not, it must be marked as reconstructed and speculative for that era. The only attested Latin proper name for those mountains I could currently find was "Alpes Bastarnicae". Draco argenteus (talk) 10:37, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
Italian. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 17:18, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
Italian. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 17:19, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Other dictionaries give the perfect and supine stem as lacking. I find no hits for perfect forms starting with praecul* in Latin corpora.--Urszag (talk) 22:45, 24 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Urszag I was able to find the perfect passive participle in Statius and an attested perfect form in a Medieval Latin text. I'm fairly convinced that the form praeculī is completely erroneous, as the perfect stem should be praecellu-, as indicated by excelluī. If so, then we would have to delete all of the existing pages for the non-lemma perfect forms of the verb. Graearms (talk) 00:54, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Lewis and Short writes "the nom. and acc. of the neutr. plur. do not occur; cf. Neue Formenl. 2, 51, v." I did not see any occurrences of "dīvita" as a neuter plural adjective in Latin corpora. We can instead find dītia.--Urszag (talk) 04:24, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- I could write a Latin essay on agriculture and have "dīvita avenae arva" ("dīves ager" is found). These could technically be encountered, it's not as if the paradigm has evolved to especially reject these neuter forms, there shouldn't be anything peculiar about them, no? Saumache (talk) 06:34, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- For whatever reason, there are very few Latin third-declension adjectives, other than comparatives, that form consonant-stem neuter plural forms (even fewer than would be expected based on the general preference for i-stem rather than consonant-stem endings in adjectives, since many adjectives that have attested ablative singular forms in -e or genitive plural forms in consonant + -um do not have attested neuter plural forms in consonant + -a). Aside from Lewis and Short, see the following page on defective adjectives in the grammar of Guardia and Wierzeyski.--Urszag (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- I see, interesting. I couldn't find any post-classical attestation of divita either and only found pubera in New Latin. We should update these one-termination adjectives. Saumache (talk) 09:56, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- For whatever reason, there are very few Latin third-declension adjectives, other than comparatives, that form consonant-stem neuter plural forms (even fewer than would be expected based on the general preference for i-stem rather than consonant-stem endings in adjectives, since many adjectives that have attested ablative singular forms in -e or genitive plural forms in consonant + -um do not have attested neuter plural forms in consonant + -a). Aside from Lewis and Short, see the following page on defective adjectives in the grammar of Guardia and Wierzeyski.--Urszag (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Marked for deletion.--Urszag (talk) 18:01, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
Mirandese. Not listed by any of the sources in Category:Mirandese reference templates. There are a couple of uses in Wikipedia, but I couldn't find any durably archived quotations. Santi2222 (talk) 14:28, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- Ping @Ultimateria, the page creator, and ping Wiktionary’s only active Mirandese editor, @MdMV or Emdy idk. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 16:33, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- I was taking these words from documents I can no longer find. I have no objection. Ultimateria (talk) 18:52, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah so, çcer is not a word, it doesn’t even work orthographically. While it is true that “des-“ and occasionally “de-“ do turn to “ç-“ in Mirandese. This is not one of those cases given it’s followed by [s] already. The word is ‘decer’. MdMV or Emdy idk (talk) 19:50, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- Failed. Copying to decer. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 16:55, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
Spanish internet slang for "despicable person". (The other sense is &lit so the entry should be deleted if this sense fails.) Ultimateria (talk) 00:09, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. ununnilium
I found this while looking for Portuguese words spelled with nn:
intitle:/.*nn.*/ incategory:"Portuguese lemmas" -incategory:"Portuguese forms superseded in 1943" -incategory:"Portuguese forms superseded in 1911" -incategory:"Portuguese obsolete forms"
This entry seemed suspicious.
I checked the Portuguese Wikipedia page on this chemical element, and w:pt:Darmstádtio#Nomes provisórios[permalink] contraddicts it—Após sua descoberta foi denominado provisoriamente de "Ununílio" ("Ununnilium" em inglês) pela IUPAC (nome sistemático).
—saying the temporary name, in Portuguese, was actually ununílio with one n.
For historical context, w:Darmstadtium#Naming[permalink] says that the provisional name ununnilium was first recommended in 1979, while darmstadtium was officialised in 2003.
o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 01:45, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- Hmm. It's listed in Infopédia, so I can buy that it's a European form like connosco and comummente. Did anybody ever use it, though...? MedK1 (talk) 23:28, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
November 2025
[edit]Asturian. Standard form is lleonés. Ultimateria (talk) 05:49, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
Catalan. Note the 1920s dates on the two existing cites (for two different senses). Ultimateria (talk) 19:15, 5 November 2025 (UTC)
Papiamentu. Created in 2008 meaning "Nazi", the content was moved and overwitten on the entry bisawelo "great-grandfather" in 2018 and this page now redirects to English Nazi. Catonif (talk) 12:48, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
- Delete. Well, it existing as a redirect does not make much sense at least. Emanuele6 (talk) 19:49, 8 November 2025 (UTC)
- Comment .... it was created in 2018, from what i can see, and by a very careless editor. he seems to have found his way out of here before he got blocked ... so many of his edits were cleaning up his own mistakes. —Soap— 16:31, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
Italian. to pick on someone
I have never heard this, also it doesn't say whether it is transitive or uses con/a/... so I don't know how it's supposed to be used. Emanuele6 (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, @Catonif! Do you think this could perhaps be a Romanesco form of avercela actually meaning "to hold a grudge" (not "to pick on") rather than a reflexive use of avere?
- si mentions that se is used, notably in Romanesco, in place of standard Italian ci; though only for the 1PL reflexive/reciprocal sense, not for the ci used in avercela. Emanuele6 (talk) 18:27, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, not Romanesco. Added by SemperBlotto, probably a misbracketing of whatever more common expression I can't think of. Safe to go. Catonif (talk) 01:39, 31 January 2026 (UTC)
- Actually, I've found something interesting on the Treccani dictionary entry for avere. aversela is used in the expression aversela a male (literally “to have oneself it à la badly”), which I can confirm exists and is actually reflexive (I am pretty sure I have heard it a couple times); however, it is not used on its own without a male as far as I know, and it still does not mean "to pick on", it means something like "to feel offended/wronged". Treccani also mentions an aversene a male alternative form with the same meaning, using ne rather than la, which I have not heard.
- avére2 in Treccani.it – Vocabolario Treccani on line, Istituto dell'Enciclopedia Italiana
- I've found nothing supporting this "to pick on" definition Emanuele6 (talk) 20:16, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
Italian. third-person singular past historic of connettere
I think this one is made-up, based on the fact that normally regular 3s past historic of -ere verbs can exist as either -é or -ette; this is not generally the case for regular -ttere verbs, however.
The 3s phis of connettere is regular connetté, or "less common" (says DOP:connettere) connesse.
Additionally, note that the entry mentions as synonym {{l|it|connettè}} that seems to exist as a redirect to actual 3s phis connetté.
Emanuele6 (talk) 14:59, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
- There is also a page for 3p phis connettettero. The 3p phis is actually regular connetterono or connessero. Emanuele6 (talk) 15:01, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
- Similar cases of likely hallucinated inflections:
- -ttette: battette, combattette, imbattette, sbattette, abbattette, dibattette, controbattette, reflettette, ribattette, riflettette
- -ttettero: battettero, sbattettero, reflettettero, combattettero, abbattettero, ribattettero, dibattettero, controbattettero, imbattettero, riflettettero
- Emanuele6 (talk) 22:52, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
- (Notifying Benwing2, GianWiki, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia, Sartma, Catonif, Trimpulot): Anything to say? otherwise RFV-failed. Emanuele6 (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
- No, looks like a bot-bug. Should be deleted, also the other forms. Jberkel 12:14, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
- Through googling, I've found a couple of 19th-century Italian-language manuals mentioning connettette as an ancient form; but no trace elsewhere, apart from one or two instances wherein I feel it's likely to be just a mistake dictated by analogy. Based on this, I'd say delete. GianWiki (talk) 15:57, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
- By the way, I did also check Special:Search/intitle:/ttetti$/ for the 1SG -etti (alternative to -ei) suffix, but there are no matches relevant to this RFV.
- For these verbs, only the 3SG -ette (-é) and 3PL -ettero (-erono) alternative forms were created. Emanuele6 (talk) 16:12, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
- (Notifying Benwing2, GianWiki, Ultimateria, Jberkel, Imetsia, Sartma, Catonif, Trimpulot): Anything to say? otherwise RFV-failed. Emanuele6 (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. All pages marked for deletion. Emanuele6 (talk) 16:03, 20 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. Apparently an interjection for a burp, but I can't find any examples of it. Theknightwho (talk) 02:05, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
Asturian for "glass". Not seeing it in Aragonese for that matter. Ultimateria (talk) 05:13, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. The word does appears uncommon, and the few results on Google seem to have very varied meaning. I believe the current definition is incorrect. Ping creator @Fy Javan. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 15:30, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
- I tried to make it more generic than simply to mate or to idolize. However, there is an obscene definition as well. Fy Javan (talk) 03:41, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Ping creator @Zisn1234. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 15:35, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
- It seems like it's a European thing. It's the prescribed way of spelling it there according to Ciberdúvidas and I was able to find a few hits for it in a couple of Portuguese forums.
- I'm not too positive it passes CFI though. Maybe for Galician? Spanish? French? There's way more hits for those last 2 than for Portuguese. I believe it has to do with the number of people in each place. Being that Brazil doesn't use it... there's 10mil people in Portugal, 2mil people in Galicia and way more than that in, say, France. MedK1 (talk) 23:15, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. No attestation outside of dictionaries or glossaries. I've already expressed my thoughs above. Trooper57 (talk) 22:16, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
Spanish. toy pedal bike
like Portuguese motoca.
It was tagged, but not listed, on 2024-12-08 by User:Protegmatic who also added the Portuguese entry.
The page itself was created with only this Spanish definition on 2018-03-03 by User:Otra cuenta105, a User:Wonderfool alt, so pinging @User:Vealhurl since that seems to be their currently active account.
o/ Emanuele6 (talk) 01:05, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
- This is the only Spanish result I was able to find after looking for "una motoca", "la motoca" and "motoquita". [70]
- DuckDuckGo's AI says it's Brazilian slang.
- Considering that even "motoquita" (-ita gives off Spanish vibes) only returns stuff in Portuguese, I think it's pretty safe to think it doesn't exist in Spanish. I thought I'd struck gold when I saw a "la tortuguita motoquita" video, but it was a Brazilian brainrot video à la "ballerina cappuccina". MedK1 (talk) 23:24, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
RFV-failed. MedK1 (talk) 14:20, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Trooper57 (talk) 03:39, 19 November 2025 (UTC)
Latin. The noun is typically gerundivum. Theknightwho (talk) 07:17, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho I've added a quote and some references to the page. Graearms (talk) 00:09, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Graearms Is it a New Latin coinage? Theknightwho (talk) 06:44, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho The term appears in the works of Servius, so it is probably best described as Late Latin. Also, the term appears to have actually been an adjective. Graearms (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Graearms It being an adjective makes much more sense. Theknightwho (talk) 15:02, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho The term appears in the works of Servius, so it is probably best described as Late Latin. Also, the term appears to have actually been an adjective. Graearms (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Graearms Is it a New Latin coinage? Theknightwho (talk) 06:44, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
RfV-passed. It has been cited for 10 days without challenge. Graearms (talk) 18:47, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin.--Urszag (talk) 06:09, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Marked for deletion.--Urszag (talk) 22:08, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Presumably related to castrum and castellum, but no explanation is given of when or where this term is attested. Adding references, citations and probably labels would be good.--Urszag (talk) 20:41, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
Oscan. Rationale was: "Does not align with spelling conventions. "𐌏" was not a part of Oscan native script and this word is not attested as such." Ultimateria (talk) 02:51, 24 November 2025 (UTC)
- @Ultimateria The term 𐌕𐌏𐌖𐌕𐌏 (touto) should absolutely be deleted. It appears that the original page creator decided artificially transfer the attested Latin script form into the Italic script. It is also a duplicate of 𐌕𐌞𐌅𐌕𐌞 (túvtú), which should itself probably be deleted because it is also unattested. Graearms (talk) 01:38, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Graearms: Note: At the time the entry was created (2022), the Latin script was not used for Oscan entries. I have deleted the form with ⟨𐌏⟩, but as the correct spelling could be attested, it should be handled separately. J3133 (talk) 11:47, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
Spanish. Seems to be a typo for escolastizar which is also not very common. Ultimateria (talk) 03:39, 25 November 2025 (UTC)
December 2025
[edit]Portuguese. Was this ever legit? Is this an old misspelling? I'm somewhat able to attest "pessôa"... MedK1 (talk) 21:52, 1 December 2025 (UTC)
Asturian. Standard term for "nightmare" is velea. Only appears in one dict (Junquera Huergo) at DGLA which according to Fueyo221 isn't trustworthy. Ultimateria (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Derived terms get zero hits, with main forms I'm not qualified to say whether the hits I get are valid or not. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 15:57, 7 December 2025 (UTC)
- have added 3 bibliographic citations (Gruson 1835, Jacobi 1825, Pacht 1850) to the entry. They are valid Latin sources. Please review and remove the RFV tag.Quantum0000 (talk) 17:01, 7 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Quantum0000 Can you move the citations underneath the relevant definition(s) and put
#*before them to mark them as quotations (rather than putting them in a separate Quotations section, which is deprecated)? Also, two of the three citations you give are actually mentions rather than uses, because they are giving definitions rather than using the word in context. Can you convert at least one of the citations to a use? Presumably you just need to look a bit later in the same text for a use of the word in context. Benwing2 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2025 (UTC)- Sorry for I am just a noob in it I just try to put the new Latin words with declarations and macrons with a large time to check it out.Actually I saw this usage in a dictionary it said that it is come from this new Latin.Maybe I need help or just try to find the evidence that this word has existed Quantum0000 (talk) 10:50, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Surjection@Benwing2 Plz help me to check if there’s something I need to improve!!Thank you Quantum0000 (talk) 11:31, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry for I am just a noob in it I just try to put the new Latin words with declarations and macrons with a large time to check it out.Actually I saw this usage in a dictionary it said that it is come from this new Latin.Maybe I need help or just try to find the evidence that this word has existed Quantum0000 (talk) 10:50, 9 December 2025 (UTC)
- @Quantum0000 Can you move the citations underneath the relevant definition(s) and put
- @Surjection @Benwing2 Perhaps not the right place: this user had forged citations for cruciārius, beware. Saumache (talk) 10:33, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks, I checked this and the quote is indeed fake - I've imposed a block, there is zero tolerance for this kind of fabrication. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 11:06, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
RFV-passed This, that and the other (talk) 03:35, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- Un-passed. The provided quote may not be real. Further work required. This, that and the other (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2026 (UTC)
Spanish.
Seeking cites in running text in Spanish. All I see is people writing in English saying things like "printear isnt a word?" or copies and snippets of a ZDNet article written 25 years ago saying that Any Day Now these creeping Anglicisms are going to become everyday Spanish. I also looked for printeado and other forms which i'd figured would be more common and would eliminate the news-article false positives. In fact Im actually surprised that this word hasnt caught on even a little bit, so maybe I'm missing something. Thanks, —Soap— 16:12, 10 December 2025 (UTC)
- Here is a convenience link to the ZDNet story, since I just realized it's hard to turn up even when searching Google for zdnet printear. —Soap— 16:17, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. Supine of iaceō. I see it given in some dictionaries, but others such as Lewis and Short, Georges, LaNe give the future active participle to cite this stem; I suspect the supine may be unattested. Since the verb is intransitive, the perfect passive participle presumably does not exist.--Urszag (talk) 22:17, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
- RFV-failed. Marked for deletion.--Urszag (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2026 (UTC)
Portuguese. I couldn't find any mention to it outside dictionaries. Trooper57 (talk) 03:46, 13 December 2025 (UTC)
- "Antigo" usually means OGP, so I checked
{{R:roa-opt:CX}},{{R:roa-opt:DDGM}}and {{{R:roa-opt:UC}}. No mention of it anywhere; I couldn't find it through Google either. Seems pretty safely fake. w:Fictitious entry? MedK1 (talk) 08:59, 24 December 2025 (UTC)- I looked in the 1891 Caldas Aulete and it’s nowhere to be found there (not even under ceuropão). Maybe from a later edition. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 09:09, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
- I just checked, it's also in VOLP?? Where did this come from. Trooper57 (talk) 13:11, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
- It really is, in the 1933 version; it’s not found in the 1914 (3rd edition) one, nor in the 1943 version for some reason. So, if the Aulete dictionary hypothetically made it up, it would’ve been in the dictionary’s 1925 edition (which is supposed to be public domain!). Can anyone find it? I remember looking once. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 18:01, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
I can't seem to find any sources online that mention this word. The editor that added it has shown a tendency of mistaken edits, too. Pitocuev42 (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2025 (UTC) [moved from RFVN This, that and the other (talk) 00:11, 17 December 2025 (UTC)]
Latin. Georgics 4.169
- I've gone ahead and fixed the error. Graearms (talk) 20:32, 25 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Rfv-sense:
Cicero, Laelius de Amicitia (De Amicitia). https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/amic.shtml
Latin: cum isdem ad calcem, ut dicitur, pervenire.
English: “to reach the finish line with those same people, as the saying goes.”
Portuguese. There's a bunch of other weird ones too like fê and lê, but at least those are labelled as belonging to the NE region. What gives? Are these real? MedK1 (talk) 13:42, 20 December 2025 (UTC)
- These are all real in the Northeast as far as I’m aware. Lá no meu sertão... — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 16:52, 21 December 2025 (UTC)
- Houaiss also has them, BTW. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 23:39, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
French: "pachyptiles, of genus Pachyptila." In current French does this normally have an initial capital? DCDuring (talk) 15:37, 22 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: sense 1, larceny. Afaik, "latrocínio" requires the victim to be murdered, not just threatened. It's robbing + killing. Even informally, I've never seen anyone use it differently. MedK1 (talk) 08:43, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. One of the plural forms of vulcão. It's always mentioned in grammar websites[71] but I couldn't find it in any dictionary besides Estraviz[72] (which I think is supposed to be Galician?). VOC only lists vulcãos and vulcões[73] with a note that vulcãos is only ever found in Brazilian dicionãrios[sic]. Trooper57 (talk) 14:20, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
Latin. Intransitive verb meaning "to clear one's throat". The passive forms should be removed. This, that and the other (talk) 09:11, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
- Ping @Saumache. This, that and the other (talk) 09:12, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
- This verb is only attested once in the active and intransitive, but we find ex(s)creatur pituita and excreatum (see ambitransitive excreo), so the passive pp screatus "spat out by hawking" is always possible. Saumache (talk) 09:26, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
- I suspected something like that might be possible. I would still get rid of the passive forms of screō - to me the ex- is what gives exscreō its transitive force, much like cough vs cough up in English - but I'll let others weigh in on that matter. If kept, screātus needs a much better definition than the incomprehensible "hawked". This, that and the other (talk) 13:21, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
- This verb is only attested once in the active and intransitive, but we find ex(s)creatur pituita and excreatum (see ambitransitive excreo), so the passive pp screatus "spat out by hawking" is always possible. Saumache (talk) 09:26, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: jeans. Seems like it's used in Portugal. I get loads of hits from looking up "minhas gafas", including from books. Also: [74][75] MedK1 (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Thinking this is a folk etymology. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 21:35, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
- It's a bit tougher to judge when the etymology's not on the page at all. Looking around, I was able to find people online claiming it's a portmanteau of "bisbilhotar" and "olhar", and someone else — more credible imo — saying it has to do with Galician and Portuguese avesulhar,[76], which does show up in Galician dictionaries.[77][78]
- We could always claim "Uncertain." before presenting everything if you're really doubtful about these hypotheses... but what I'm uncertain about tbh is why this is here in RFV rather than in the Etymology scriptorium 😅 I mean, you're not questioning the actual verb, right? MedK1 (talk) 00:23, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, I am. I mean that, as I see it, this is only said to exist as the origin of bizoiar, which would make that a pronunciation spelling. But I don’t believe it is. There’s nothing really saying anything about it other than that Facebook page you linked (which I’d also seen a few months ago). Hence the RfV. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 02:48, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv two etymologies (which, yes, I added).
Etymology 2: "Indian unhusked rice". s:pt:Hobson-Jobson/N quotes this book, but I can’t find anything the original text. And might this be Indo-Portuguese?
Etymology 3: "an old French coin". I think this is outright made up.
Both definitions are mentioned to explain the spelling nêle around the 1940s or 50s. like here. The word nele was already found in the 1943 Orthographic Vocabulary, though its meaning is not listed. The 1933 version doesn’t have it, so a dictionary from around then probably listed it. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 06:50, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
Old Galician-Portuguese. No hits at {{R:roa-opt:CX}}, {{R:roa-opt:VPM}} or corpusdoportugues.org. @Massiota. Ping also, hm, maybe @Fay Freak, to look at Latin *metallus. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 05:33, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- I thought there is consensus that we don't create reconstructions only because neuters are assumed to have become masculines. Please somebody explain the newbie to stop create useless entries. I don't find the Old Galician-Portuguese term either. Fay Freak (talk) 14:09, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- I have speedily deleted this entry and reverted the user’s contributions due to their failure to communicate regarding their dubious edits. — Polomo ⟨ oi! ⟩ · 18:53, 10 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 11:07, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- I find a whole page of Latin texts for the search term
"bisecuit"on Google Books, date range before 1855. I just don't want to quote 17th–18th-century mathematics treatises I don't understand anyway right now. Fay Freak (talk) 14:06, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
mi, as a reduced form of mira#Catalan
[edit]Catalan. Rfv-sense:
The imperative form {{m|ca|mira}} can reduce to {{m|ca|mi}} in colloquial speech when one or more clitic pronouns are attached to the end of the verb.
A usage note on mira#Catalan, added in Jul 2022, tagged as Eh? in which dialect of Catalan would be that?
in Sep 2023. —Fish bowl (talk) 05:45, 31 December 2025 (UTC)
- There's an entry with sources at mi#Catalan. The Optimot seems to be the main source classifying it as colloquial without any mention of dialects. The other two references are specific to the Algherese dialect though. Io Katai (talk) 16:30, 31 December 2025 (UTC)
January 2026
[edit]Portuguese. Rfv-sense: I saw it in Michaelis but I've never encountered it in books or elsewhere. MedK1 (talk) 19:34, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
Portuguese. Trooper57 (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
French. Does it pass CFI? It's crazy how even the French Wiktionary entry quotes the exact same excerpt. MedK1 (talk) 03:42, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
Romanian. Recently added IP entry; didn't find this in DEX at least. — SURJECTION / T / C / L / 11:43, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. Do we have any unambiguous attestations (e.g. in record type) with the zigzag? I would expect p᷒đc̃m or pꝰđc̃m. @Theknightwho —Desacc̱oinṯier 14:17, 8 January 2026 (UTC)
Sicilian, supposedly meaning opium poppy. Several languages we list in the opium poppy t-box have phrases literally meaning "sleep poppy" or "sleep flower", but "sleep zucchini" seems far out of reach of reasonable semantic shifts unless it was some sort of ironic coinage whose double meaning is opaque to us, in which case I'd at least expect there to also be a phrase something like paparina 'i sonnu from which this was derived. I couldnt find any evidence that this phrase exists, so I wonder if it may have been a mistake. The creator has been inactive lately. Thanks, —Soap— 17:38, 14 January 2026 (UTC)
Portuguese. Rfv-sense: aluminosilicate. Tagged but not listed. It's in a dictionary, but I suspect the meaning might be a type of aluminosilicate known for a red or pink color, and that therefore if this passes RFV we might need to also rewrite the meaning. I did some looking around in English, figuring that if Portuguese has rosita we might have rosite with the same meaning (compare kyanite ~ cianita), in which case we could also list this in English, but I couldnt find anything. —Soap— 20:37, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
A common name for the fruit in Spanish and English, but I can't easily attest it in Portuguese. The dictionaries that properly label it say it's from RS, but v~bergamota is the most used term by far according to South Brazil's linguistic atlas[79] — in fact, a single use is attested in that map (as mandarinha) in, guess what, Foz do Iguaçu. Trooper57 (talk) 03:39, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
- I've found a partial attestation online as "laranja mandarina".[80] Trooper57 (talk) 03:41, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
Latin. Rationale was "not attested". Ultimateria (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
- saliō has no inflectional supine stem per se, only supine stem detivatives. See “salio2”, in Charlton T. Lewis and Charles Short (1879), A Latin Dictionary, Oxford: Clarendon Press. Saumache (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
- Attested in at least Late Latin (Priscian). Nicodene (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
- Is a gloss enough? I don't know the actual policy, but I thought it didn't count as genuine attestation. Saumache (talk) 23:20, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
- Attested in at least Late Latin (Priscian). Nicodene (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
- Can't find anything other than that gloss, even in modern texts. We have accepted glosses (e.g. Appendix Probi), although I don't really like this one because it seems to be akin to an ancient "verb table" and offers only a weak inference that the term was in use, in contrast to Appendix Probi from which a much stronger inference can be drawn. This, that and the other (talk) 00:09, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
Italian. Slang for "go to hell". Ultimateria (talk) 20:10, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
- Italian va a Napoli means "third-person singular goes to Naples", so, clearly, it cannot possibly mean anything resembling "go to hell!": at most, "it goes to hell". Anything else to discuss? ^^
- By the way, @User:Tashi was the one who created this page, and they said on WT:Discord when asked about it a couple days later that they did simply because they saw it in WT:RE:it, so they likely won't have much to add. Emanuele6 (talk) 03:56, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
- I looked for who requested this entry originally in order to ping them in case they wanted to elaborate; it was @User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV on 2016-05-02 Special:Diff/38475528, however they have not made any edits in over 3 years. Emanuele6 (talk) 04:14, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
Italian. until the cows come home
This doesn't really mean until the cows come home; it's more like "to your heart's content"/"(for) as much as you want" (literally, “how much it seems to you”): it is a time frame (or quantity) YOU decide, not general like until the cows come home, and it exists also with other datives e.g. quanto gli pare (“to his heart's content”).
It is indeed a common construction (with all datives not just ti/Le...), but should it be considered SOP? If it is not SOP, the definition should still be changed, and perhaps the page should be moved to quanto pare/quanto pare a. Emanuele6 (talk) 03:48, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
- There is also a stronger version with e piace; e.g. quanto mi pare e piace ― as much as I want (literally, “however much/long seems [good] to me and pleases me”). Emanuele6 (talk) 04:31, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
- It is not really specific to quanto (“however much”) either:
- Delete and move to a sense in parere (verb)? Emanuele6 (talk) 00:28, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
Italian. Inflections of past participle funzionato:
- funzionata:
feminine singular of funzionato
- funzionate:
feminine plural of funzionato
- funzionati:
masculine plural of funzionato
I am puzzled; funzionare (“to work; to function”) is an intransitive verb using avere as auxiliary so these forms should not exist (cfr. Talk:peccata#RFV discussion: June–October 2025); there are no matches for funzionata, and funzionati on Treccani.it.
However, I think funzionare is sometimes heard with essere rather than avere in this sense; I don't know if that's dialectal though.
On the Italian Wikipedia (after correcting two typos w:it:Special:Diff/149143137, w:it:Special:Diff/149143209), there are:
32 matches for "funzionati" w:it:Special:Search/"funzionati"- “Nisekoi - False Love[permalink]”, in Wikipedia (in Italian), 29 January 2026: “Quando però prova a chiedergli se sarebbero mai funzionati come coppia vera lui risponde di no […]”
- “Crisi della replicazione[permalink]”, in Wikipedia (in Italian), 29 January 2026: “il 50% di aver solamente riportato studi che “sono funzionati” in una serie di studi condotti”
“Battaglia di Pyongtaek[permalink]”, in Wikipedia (in Italian), 29 January 2026: “Infatti, molte delle armi in dotazione erano mal funzionate e i proiettili erano pochi.” (it used to say 'funzionati', but the agreement was wrong; I temporarily "corrected" it changing it to 'funzionate' w:it:Special:Diff/149143771)[EDIT: comparing with the Italian WikiBooks article on roughly the same topic which had a similar typo b:it:Special:Diff/488261, I think this was actually, probably supposed to be malfunzionanti rather than a past tense of this verb]
- 2 matches for "funzionata" w:it:Special:Search/"funzionata"
- “Episodi di Maledetti scarafaggi (prima stagione)[permalink]”, in Wikipedia (in Italian), 29 January 2026: “Una volta che è funzionata, pensa di eliminare agli Scarafaggi in modo da vivere in pace.”
- “Trino[permalink]”, in Wikipedia (in Italian), 29 January 2026: “Nel territorio comunale opera anche la centrale idroelettica San Martino funzionata dall'Associazione di Irrigazione Ovest Sesia.”
Except for the last one, those are all indeed uses of funzionare in the "to work (out); to function" sense with essere (rather than avere):
- sarebbero mai funzionati ← avrebbero mai funzionato
- sono funzionati ← hanno funzionato
erano mal funzionate ← avevano mal funzionato- è funzionata ← ha funzionato
The last one is a different sense: it is something like "this hydroelectric plant funzionata(*which is functioned) by this association"; so used to form the passive of a transitive sense.
The Treccani dictionary entry for funzionare mentions a sense that is something like, of e.g. a priest, to perform a funzione (“service”, literally “function”). (this is still intransitive, though; it does not explicitly say it can be used transitively, and it only shows examples of intransitive use)
- funzionare in Treccani.it – Vocabolario Treccani on line, Istituto dell'Enciclopedia Italiana
As far as I can tell, Treccani doesn't really mention anything that could mean that transitive sense, which I assume is meant as "SUBJECT is responsible for OBJECT's operation", so that may be a complete misuse of the verb. Emanuele6 (talk) 14:30, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
- Some relevant web results:
- 2023 post on the "curscate" Italian grammar forum asking whether funzionare may be used with essere rather than avere in e.g. «non è funzionato»; the only response they got was a simple "No, funzionare always wants avere" by an administrator. https://www.achyra.org/cruscate/viewtopic.php?t=9258
- 2013 Treccani Q&A question "I would like to know whether «il venditore ci assicurò che l'auto sarebbe funzionata perfettamente!» is correct"; again, the response is basically a plain "No, it is not. «avrebbe funzionato»" without much elaboration https://www.treccani.it/magazine/lingua_italiana/domande_e_risposte/grammatica/grammatica_420.html
- The use of essere for the "to work; to function" intransitive sense is definitely proscribed, it seems; is it relevant enough to be mentioned, and save funzionata and funzionati from deletion as proscribed forms in case the transitive sense of the last example also fails verification? Emanuele6 (talk) 14:51, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
- Copying what @GianWiki did in peccata's RFV, I've also tried to free search these forms on GDLI.it: no matches for funzionati, and funzionate, one match for funzionata in funzionismo's etymology section, which is actually a scanno for funzionista:
- “funzionismo”, in Grande dizionario della lingua italiana, volume 6 fio–graul, UTET, 1970, page 468
- While at it, checking the GDLI entry for funzionare, there is no transitive sense and the only auxiliary mentioned is avere; additionally, I also consulted my physical copy of lo Zanichelli (2017), and nothing there either:
- “funzionare”, in Grande dizionario della lingua italiana, volume 6 fio–graul, UTET, 1970, page 467
- Nicola Zingarelli (2016), lo Zingarelli 2017, Vocabolario della lingua italiana (in Italian), Zanichelli, →ISBN, page 951
- I guess what is left to decide is whether the occasional, proscribed use of funzionare with essere is relevant enough to be worth a mention, and whether that can justify keeping [[funzionata]], and [[funzionati]].
- Additionally, giving the benefit of the doubt, whether the transitive use of the verb in
Trino on the Italian WikipediaWikipedia it exists as a neologism. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Emanuele6 (talk) 21:07, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
- The "funzionata" in that article seems to be a fairly recent (not even two years old w:it:Special:Diff/137932699) addition by @GMRoss2006; ping just in case w:it:Discussioni utente:GMRoss2006#funzionata = operata?. Emanuele6 (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
- Discussion moved from WT:RFM.
Latin. Diabeticorum in Bullosis diabeticorum is genitive plural of diabeticus. Diabeticorus doesnt exist, I think. Suryaratha03 (talk) 09:24, 21 November 2025 (UTC
Latin. The building. This, that and the other (talk) 11:09, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
- Speedy. We don't do building names, we treat modern Latin as an LDL, and there's no guarantee that it's really Latin. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:03, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
Latin (for the forms other than mellītus, which can be understood as an adjective/noun rather than a verb). Originally tagged for deletion by @Saumache with the comment “it's an adjective/substantive (mellitus), no verb attested?”.--Urszag (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Urszag delete Nothing in the sources, nothing at Logeion, it is the crīnītus-type adjective. The only quote is a misquoting. Saumache (talk) 08:02, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Urszag The original creator of the page is @Redeemed Angle Dust, which seems to have invented words and forms up to as late as last december, what in the world is this futūrō, futuss-, futust-? He's the same who would add dozens of unattested and/or badly formatted Latin correlatives. Saumache (talk) 08:11, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Saumache: Yes, I saw that the page was created by that user. I think the RFV process will be the quickest way to get this deleted (list it here and wait a month, then when citations fail to be supplied, close and tag for deletion noting that it failed RFV). Mods are generally reluctant to delete pages out of process, and I think the lack of listing on a discussion page is probably the reason this was not deleted promptly when the rfd template was added in September. I'll remove the false citation to avoid confusion.--Urszag (talk) 16:18, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
- 'faith, I'd love to have the power to delete pages on this wiki. I might have tagged hundreds of pages by now... Saumache (talk) 16:22, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Saumache: Yes, I saw that the page was created by that user. I think the RFV process will be the quickest way to get this deleted (list it here and wait a month, then when citations fail to be supplied, close and tag for deletion noting that it failed RFV). Mods are generally reluctant to delete pages out of process, and I think the lack of listing on a discussion page is probably the reason this was not deleted promptly when the rfd template was added in September. I'll remove the false citation to avoid confusion.--Urszag (talk) 16:18, 8 February 2026 (UTC)