Wiktionary:Votes/2017-06/borrowing, borrowed

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borrowing, borrowed[edit]

Note: All the proposals below concern the template {{bor}}. The other templates are shown for comparison purposes only.

This is the status quo:

{{bor}}, {{cal}}, {{der}} and {{inh}} as of June 2017
Template Syntax Result Notes
{{bor}} {{bor|en|it|pizza}}. Borrowing from Italian pizza. "Borrowing from" is added automatically, with a link to "loanword" in Appendix:Glossary.
{{bor|en|it|pizza|nocap=1}}. borrowing from Italian pizza. Same as above, except nocap=1 causes "borrowing" to start with a lowercase b.
{{bor|en|it|pizza|notext=1}}. Italian pizza. notext=1 removes "Borrowing from" altogether.
{{cal}} {{cal|en|fr|surnom}}. Calque of French surnom. "Calque of" is added automatically, with a link to "calque" in Appendix:Glossary.
{{cal|en|fr|surnom|nocap=1}}. calque of French surnom. Same as above, except nocap=1 causes "calque" to start with a lowercase c.
{{cal|en|fr|surnom|notext=1}}. French surnom. notext=1 removes "Calque of" altogether.
{{der}} From {{der|en|it|pizza}}. From Italian pizza. The template does not add "Derived from" anywhere. Instead, many entries have "From" manually added before the template, without the word "Derived".
{{inh}} From {{inh|en|it|pizza}}. From Italian pizza. The template does not add "Inherited from" anywhere. Instead, many entries have "From" manually added before the template, without the word "Inherited".
Issues to consider:
  • The template output of {{bor}} is consistent with templates such as {{cal}} and {{bac}}, yet arguably inconsistent with {{der}} and {{inh}}.
  • The text "Borrowing from" is ungrammatical, and more often than not would be better replaced by "Borrowed from".

Voting on:

  • Proposal 1: Remove the "Borrowing from" text altogether from the output of {{bor}}, and add "Borrowed from" outside the template. Feel free to state if you think a link to Appendix:Glossary#loanword is necessary or not.
Syntax Result
Borrowed from {{bor|en|it|pizza}}. Borrowed from Italian pizza.
Rationale for proposal 1:
  • This would cause {{bor}} to function exactly the same way as {{der}} and {{inh}}, for consistency.
  • Arguably, it's simpler and easier to write normal text, as opposed to using parameters like "notext=1" and "nocap=1".
  • Currently, some Ido and Esperanto terms may have etymologies like this, requiring the use of the code "notext=1" many times:
    "Borrowed from English ..., German ..., Italian ..., Spanish ..., Portuguese ..., Russian ..., Greek ..."
  • This proposal also converts -ing to -ed.
  • Proposal 2: Introduce a new parameter called "ger=1". Make {{bor}} display "Borrowed from" by default, except it shows "Borrowing from" when "ger=1" is enabled. Add, by bot, "ger=1" in all entries that currently display "Borrowing from". This may be used as a first step to use "Borrowed from" in all entries.
Syntax Result
{{bor|en|it|pizza}}. Borrowed from Italian pizza.
{{bor|en|it|pizza|ger=1}}. Borrowing from Italian pizza.
Rationale for proposal 2:
  • The functionality of {{bor}} is consistent many templates, including {{cal}}, {{bac}}, {{nam}}, {{blend}}, etc. It is also arguably consistent with {{der}} and {{inh}}, which only lack Derived from and Inherited from, respectively, because they would be superfluous.
  • The vast majority of {{bor}} usages appear at the beginning of an etymology, and don't require |nocap= or |notext=.
  • Having to type Borrowed from for each use is much more time consuming and will, in all likelihood, lead some editors to omit it altogether.
  • Having a link to the glossary helps readers to understand the difference between an inherited term and a borrowed term.

If any of these proposals passes, feel free to use these template tracking categories to edit the entries. The categories are expected to be deleted at some point.

Schedule:

  • Vote starts: 00:00, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Vote ends: 23:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Vote created: --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:55, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Discussion:

Support — proposal 1[edit]

  1. Symbol support vote.svg Support for consistency between {{bor}}, {{der}} and {{inh}}. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  2. Symbol support vote.svg Support. It's more work to have to override it than it would be to just type the words "borrowed from". --WikiTiki89 17:20, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    I rather more work for ~10% of entries than more work for ~90% of entries. --Victar (talk) 19:35, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    But it's a different kind of work. Typing an extra word when you're already typing a lot of things is not really extra work because it just goes with the flow of what you're doing. But adding an extra parameter to a template is much more disruptive. --WikiTiki89 19:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    I think that's arguable and probably varies by person. For me, that would not be the case. I think two other points need to be addressed as well: 1. Given human nature, people will lazily or forgetfully omit adding Borrowed and 2. The benefit of linking to the glossary, which admittedly, could be improved. --Victar (talk) 19:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  3. Symbol support vote.svg Support per Wikitiki89. Generally speaking, I don't want any default text in etymology templates. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:05, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
  4. Symbol support vote.svg Support in general, although I don't agree that there's anything ungrammatical about "borrowing" as opposed to "borrowed". Ƿidsiþ 11:31, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
    Right, probably not really "ungrammatical", but grammatically inconsistent, ex. Possible borrowing from French xxx, possibly from Latin xxx vs. Possibly borrowed from.... --Victar (talk) 23:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
    But you could make the same argument for saying "calqued" instead of "calque". Ƿidsiþ 08:15, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
    The standard text would be OK more often if the template said either "A borrowing from" or "Borrowed from", but it currently says only "Borrowing from". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 08:18, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
  5. Symbol support vote.svg Support. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:59, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
    @Andrew Sheedy: any thoughts? --Victar (talk) 12:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
    I like consistency (so I support per Daniel, I guess). :P Andrew Sheedy (talk) 16:18, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
    Me too, so please see my arguments on consistency. --Victar (talk) 17:00, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
    I like consistency, too. To be fair, "consistency" can be applied to any situation where everything happens the same way. One completely consistent system can be replaced by another completely consistent system. It would be nice to consistently not have any automated text in {{bor}}, like it's already done in {{der}} and {{inh}}. This would still be inconsistent with other templates like {{cal}}, which have the automated text and are not affected by this vote. In my opinion, it would be even better if all templates like these didn't have the automated text. Manual text would be freely added as needed. (sorry for repeating arguments sometimes, they seem applicable here and elsewhere too) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 03:00, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
    If your goal is universal consistency, that meanes removing lead text from all etymology templates, including {{cal}}, {{blend}}, {{translit}}, {{bac}}, {{clipping}}, etc. The truth is {{der}} and {{inh}} are outliers. --Victar (talk) 21:48, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
    I would support it. --Barytonesis (talk) 15:43, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
    I think that's a battle that would be met with quite a lot of resistance. --Victar (talk) 16:12, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
    Any evidence for that? If this was not discussed/voted before, we don't know what other people might think. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
    @Daniel Carrero: I don't need evidence for my thoughts, but can tell you that a) people are lazy and b) people don't like change. --Victar (talk) 17:17, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
    I love when some stuff changes (improvement is a hyponym of change), so I know for a fact that the point b does not apply to 100% of the world population. All votes that pass change something. If proposal 1 or 2 passes here, things will change. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
    You're preaching to the choir. Again, though, there are no absolutes, no universalities, no one-size-fits-all. I'm just speaking about the majority. If the majority of people weren't complacent, we would have changed "borrowing" 6 years ago! --Victar (talk) 20:08, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
    Your last sentence is not necessarily a symptom of complacency. I mean, it does not mean people were happy or apathetic with "borrowing". It's just hard to reach an agreement and change stuff that affects thousands of entries, and we may have other priorities in mind. I don't mind preaching to the choir. I don't mind saying some obvious things, this way the conversation is clearer. We'll see where the majority lies after this vote ends. If the result is inconclusive, we might need new discussions and/or votes. I don't mind waiting. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 05:06, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
  6. Symbol support vote.svg SupportCodeCat 16:15, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
  7. Symbol support vote.svg Support - [The]DaveRoss 13:11, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Oppose — proposal 1[edit]

  1. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Is inconsistent with with other like templates, and puts the manual burden on editors. --Victar (talk) 02:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  2. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Why would I vote for having more work? Template already has notext, so this vote just inverts the template to default to something that's only useful in fringe cases. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:35, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    Exactly true. And for what, flipping Esperanto? --Victar (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    I know your "And for what?" sounds sarcastic, but I'll try to answer where exactly the proposal 2 means less work:
    Of all entries using {{bor}}, 10%+ entries (approx. 4,000 entries) use either "notext=" or "nocap=". (Category:bor with notext = 2,056 entries; Category:bor with nocap = 1,901 entries). They are, obviously, cases where you don't need the "borrowing from" or it's not at the start of the line. The remaining 90%- entries (37,000+ entries) without these parameters are the default "forced" text, it's not clear they're is always needed that way even though that's the majority -- there's simply not much room for improvement if the text has already been decided by the template. Sorry for the lack of diffs (I don't remember), but I've seen quite a few entries using {{der}} where the correct choice would be {{bor}} with no text (because "borrowing" or "borrowed" was already previously mentioned). It could be just me, but I find it natural to type "Borrowed from" because it's what we actually mean at the time and it's a pain to type something not to type something -- that is, typing "notext=1" because we don't want any text. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:53, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    By "needed", do you mean proper uses versus, improper uses, like in the middle of an etymology? If so, I think that's pretty negligible. Joking aside, with Esperanto, etc., I wonder if we should make a second templates, like {{borindex|eo|en|xxx|de|xxx|it|xxx|es|xxx|pt|xxx|ru|xxx|grc|xxx}}. --Victar (talk) 19:20, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    I also want to point out that most of those |nocap=1 entries are from a) people fixing the grammar, ex. A {{bor|nocap=1}} from, and b) people incorrectly using {{bor}} mid-etymology, ex. From {{inh|en|enm}}, a {{bor|en|fro|nocap=1}} from --Victar (talk) 19:44, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    I don't know what you mean by "incorrectly". There are plenty of reasons for using {{bor}} in places other than the very beginning of the etymology. The etym 2 of arpagone starts with "1829 borrowing from French harpagon, ..." It's great that it has the year. Ideally, all etymologies should have the year of origin! (I know that does not seem always possible for all words in all languages.) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    @Daniel Carrero: I said most, not all, and gave two examples of it being misused. If you go through that category at random, you'll see that the majority fall under those two cases. --Victar (talk) 19:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    I've also been thinking about how some templates could use a |dat= date parameter. I could really use one in {{desctree}}. --Victar (talk) 20:03, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  3. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Mistrz (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  4. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose -Xbony2 (talk) 22:09, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  5. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose per Korn above — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 14:06, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Abstain — proposal 1[edit]

Support — proposal 2[edit]

  1. Symbol support vote.svg Support: {{bor}}, as is, is consistent with all like templates, including {{der}} and {{inh}}. See arguments above. --Victar (talk) 02:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  2. Symbol support vote.svg Support I guess… Mistrz (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  3. Symbol support vote.svg Support -Xbony2 (talk) 22:12, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  4. Symbol support vote.svg Support if proposal 1 fails. --Barytonesis (talk) 10:05, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Oppose — proposal 2[edit]

  1. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose. I prefer the proposal 1. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:41, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
  2. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose. No real benefit compared to option 1. —CodeCat 16:16, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
  3. Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose - [The]DaveRoss 13:12, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
    @TheDaveRoss: Any reasoning behind your vote? --Victar (talk) 14:03, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
    Yup. I voted oppose because I oppose the proposal. Specifically I think it makes the use of the template an order of magnitude more difficult for those who aren't current on the most recent ways we have found to make it impossible for new or more casual editors to contribute. We are well down the road to having just one template with thousands of unnamed parameters which generate the entirety of the page text through module-based psuedo-databases. Any time now the only pages which won't have module errors will be redirects. - [The]DaveRoss 14:13, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
    @TheDaveRoss: I think perhaps you misunderstand the proposals. The point of this vote is to change the existing text of Borrowing from to Borrowed from. What part do you see being made a "magnitude more difficult"? --Victar (talk) 14:26, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Abstain — proposal 2[edit]

  1. Symbol abstain vote.svg Abstain Don't think it's worth the effort, but if it makes you happy...Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    Most of the effort has been in creating this vote! Running a bot would just take a few minutes. =) --Victar (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    Actually, there's effort involved: if any proposal (1 or 2) passes, we'll have the chance to do the work of changing "-ing" to "-ed" in all entries, unless it turns out no one wants to do it, which seems unlikely. But let the people interested in the proposals judge by themselves if this kind of work is worth their time. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:26, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    That's true. I meant the module change itself. --Victar (talk) 19:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
    @Korn: So if it comes down to it, would you rather neither pass? Did you have an alternative idea? --Victar (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
    Alternative to what? The alternative is the status quo, innit? In case of prop 1 I prefer it, with regards to prop 2 I don't care at all. ps.: Concerning 'effort': Whoever does anything could spend that time doing something else. That's all I mean. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:33, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Decision[edit]