Wiktionary talk:About Catalan

Catalan pronunciation

Since today, I was putting the pronunciation of the two basic dialectal groups (Western and Eastern), proposed by Milà i Fontanals (1861). But I was thinking and maybe this is not the correct way, because the limits of both dialects are no clear, mainly because of the lack of normative support for the Western dialectal group (except, maybe for the Valencian subgroup). I have decided that, from now, I will put only the standard Catalan pronunciation, this is, the Central Catalan one. What do you think?--Morkai5 18:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how things are in Valencia. Is there such a thing as standard Valencian pronunciation? —CodeCat 18:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we have a Proposal for an oral standard, like the IEC (Intitute of Catalan Studies) does. But I think is excessive putting the Valencian pronunciation of all words. Or not?--Morkai5 18:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

If there are two well known standards, then I don't think there is a problem with adding both. We currently do the same with English and Dutch already. —CodeCat 18:36, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

But then there will be problems, because the UIB (University of Balearic Islands) proposes another standard for the Balearic Islands, and the IEC proposes a special standard for the Alghero (a sardian city where Catalan is also spoken). And maybe this will be too much. If not, we Valencian will have privilege over another zones where Catalan is also spoken with a non-standard pronunciation.--Morkai5 18:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

While this is true, Valencia has far more Catalan speakers than either of those areas as far as I know. It is similar to how we have US and RP pronuncations for English, but not, for example, Australian or Indian English. —CodeCat 18:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

It is true, and we have an official academy. I will mantain the Valencian pronunciations. In addition, shall I put the SAMPA pronunciation too, or only IPA? It is SAMPA used?--Morkai5 18:53, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the differences between SAMPA and X-SAMPA, but I think X-SAMPA is just IPA transliterated into ASCII. So I don't think it hurts to add it. I am actually somewhat curious about the pronunciation differences though, because I don't know Valencian and my only source of pronuncation info (besides dictionaries that only have Central Catalan) is a friend from Alt Empordà. So I could add pronuncation but it would be only Central pronuncation. Is this OK with you, or would you rather do it properly yourself? —CodeCat 18:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll do it as I've been doing, putting both of them (IPA and SAMPA). I think X-SAMPA is for another languages from English. Valencian pronunciation is more like writting (see the exemple of estimar). It's OK, do what you can, all help is widely welcome!--Morkai5 21:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

2016 spelling reform

(Notifying Jberkel, Ultimateria, Vriullop, Linguoboy): Hi. I created a workgroup for Catalan based on people who I think may be active contributors. Please change as necessary. How should we handle 2016 spellings? It looks like the norm in cawikt is to use the older forms in conjugation tables, and define the older forms as inflections of the respective infinitive while defining the newer forms as alternative forms. However, in my recent overhaul of Module:ca-verb, I used the newer (post-2016) forms in conjugation tables because that is what is found in dictionaries. Correspondingly, I defined newer forms like 'dona' of donar using {{ca-verb form of}}, and the pre-2016 forms as alternative forms. However, some existing forms are defined in the opposite way, e.g sec vs. séc. What should our policy be for this? How common are the newer vs. older forms in practice? Benwing2 (talk) 03:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

On cawikt the new spellings were added short after the publication of the 2016 reform. As there were some controversies, we adopted a prudent 'wait and see' that can be changed at any time. Controversies have been dissipating, main dictionaries and reference works have been updated, and the new spelling has been adopted by the press. I'm not so sure about technical terms modified. In the long run it is better to prioritize the new spelling, and the old ones as alternative forms. It may be helpful ca:Category:Reforma ortogràfica del català del 2016 with an exhaustive list of all new lemmas and verb forms. At some point it should be changed by something like "obsolete pre-2016 spelling". Vriullop (talk) 09:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)