Wiktionary talk:Finnish inflection types/verbs/sanoa

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Deletion debate[edit]

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The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process.

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/sanoa[edit]

This is the first in a big set of deletions, leading to the eventual complete elimination of Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types.

This section is obsolescent, and is being replaced by Appendix:Finnish declension types and Appendix:Finnish conjugation types.

Finnish word entries originally used {{fi-noun}} and {{fi-verb}} etc, which provided a wikilink to a page in the Finnish inflection types hierarchy, giving an example inflection for that type of word. (Example of an as-yet-unconverted old-style entry: kulua.)

Over the past couple of years, entries have been changing to use a plain {{infl}}, with no link. Instead, a custom inflection table for the specific word is included on its page using a fi-decl-xxx or fi-conj-xxx template. The heading of that table links to the relevant page of the new appendix. (Example of a new-style entry: sanoa.)

Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/verbs/sanoa is no longer referenced by any words, so it can now go.

I suggest that as each subpage is no longer required by actual word pages, they are pruned, leaving dead links higher up the Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types hierarchy. Those higher pages can then be used to track which subpages have been eliminated. Once the top-level pages are a wall of red, and they are no longer referenced themselves, they can finally go.

There are over 100 subpages in this hierarchy, so I suggest we agree the principle here, so no further discussion is required on the rest. --KJBracey 15:31, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes grammatical information goes in appendices - the Wiktionary namespace is for discussion pages like deletion, renaming etc. Just one question, can none of these be renamed rather than deleted? If not, I say delete the lot, on AWB I could do it pretty quickly. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Clearly, we're moving into the correct namespace here, but the main issue is to change the way the inflection information is presented to the user. And also, we're changing from one dictionary's classification system to another, so there's not an automated mapping from old to new style, so renaming/redirecting won't always be appropriate.
Also, every link to one of the Wiktionary: pages is coming from a definition page that still needs to be modified to present the inflections in the new way. I think it makes sense to not redirect/delete a page until all uses are eliminated - that gives us a useful way of tracking the entry conversion work.
If we do that, they won't all be going in one go. The overall process may well go on for over a year. But if there was a way to do a quick automated deletion of "all pages under Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types not linked to from outside that hierarchy", it would be useful. --KJBracey 16:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Old inflection pages should be deleted, no need for them. --Jyril 18:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I am still using the old NSK inflection pages because I put links in them to find the new KOTUS inflection pages. When I find an entry that has not been converted I click the little asterix to go to the old inflection page and then scroll to the bottom to see what the proper KOTUS type is. Then I can quickly determine the appropriate inflection template to use.

This is a big job and cannot easily be automated because the old and new dictionary systems (NSK and KOTUS) do not match. Here is a quick list on Google of undeclined words that have the old inflection templates: fi-noun, fi-noun, fi-verb, fi-adj, fi-adv, fi-num, fi-pron. They look like this:

raamatullinen (stem raamatulli-*)

The astrix links to a declension example for the word type. Look for the KOTUS type at the bottom. The link will give you one or more updated declension types to choose from.

Put in the new declension/conjugation table. Notice that the old inflection template should be replaced with two templates in two sections:

  • part-of-speech {{infl|fi|verb, noun, adj...}}
  • declension/conjugation {{fi-decl-nainen}}, -valo, -tuoli...

I feel that the old inflection pages should be deleted one at a time when nothing links to them anymore from the main namespace. ~ heyzeuss 21:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the information about the stem is useful, and should stay on the inflection line (just without the asterisk). For words like Raamattulinen however I would expect the stem to be Raamattulis- with the -s- added as well. —CodeCat 22:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
As you've spotted, the "stem" as shown in the old scheme isn't a brilliant concept. It's not the "inflectional stem" of normal Finnish grammar, it's the longest invariant section of the word. So for työ the "stem" is t-. Bleurgh. But the idea (I think) was that you wouldn't need to know any Finnish vowel change rules to figure out an inflected form, given that stem and the linked appendix. This wasn't really ideal, hence the change to the new scheme. An actual full inflection table for that specific word, and a link to the appendix giving more detail on that word's general class. As long as the class is clearly shown "(type nainen)", I see no point in also showing the inflectional stem on every page. And anyway, that's a separate (large) piece of work, not relevant to this particular deletion request. Thousands of entries have been converted as Heyzeuss describes above, and I don't fancy changing style again. --KJBracey 10:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Agree that we should be deleting these one at a time when no longer linked. sanoa is a major one - someone must have been specifically going through eliminating its users (thankyou!). There are quite a few more minor ones ready to go too. --KJBracey 10:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Why not just move them to the Appendix namespace and keep them as historical pages? I see no problems with keeping these pages, as they could be helpful to some users in the future. Razorflame 16:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The new inflection pages and templates should contain all the information of the old ones; no point in duplication. And I wouldn't want anyone to see their existence and start using them again. The only useful+unique thing I'm aware of the old pages containing is the mapping between NSK and KOTUS classifications at the top level. That should be retained in some form in the new appendix.

Conrad.Irwin deleted all of the inflection appendices not being used in Wiktionary:Finnish inflection types/nouns and verbs. ~ heyzeuss 11:52, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

(By the way, "Raamattulinen" is not Finnish. It's raamatullinen, but never mind.--Makaokalani 13:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC))
Thanks. Your native expertise is appreciated here. ~ heyzeuss 11:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Deleted 7 June 2010 by Conrad.Irwin. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)