Talk:šanakirja
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Surjection in topic North or South?
North or South?[edit]
@Mölli-Möllerö: I'm not sure about the website... I know for sure that Karielan Šana is published in the Tver dialect, which is South Karelian; it uses all the š-forms as opposed to (to my understanding) Northern s-forms. Also, Zaykov's work[1], which bases itself on the Northern dialects, (although I couldn't easily find "sana" as a word itself) mentions "sarana" (with an "s", not "š"), which strongly suggests "š" is a Southern innovation. Maybe the website confused the two dialects? Thadh (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, at least in Kestenga (Finnish Kiestinki), Kalevala (fi. also Uhtua) and Voknavolok (fi. Vuokkiniemi) šana has been used according to this, and they are all northern dialects. Suystamo (fi. Suistamo), a southern dialect, has used sana with an s, but on the other hand, another non-Tver southern dialect Tunguda (fi. Tunkua) has used šanoa.
- In that dictionary, northern dialects are marked in blue, southern ones in dark red and Livvi in green. Previously I thought that Tver is some sort of an exception among southern dialects in this regard as they use š instead of s, and as I couldn't see a single s variant in any northern dialect, this makes me believe that š is used in all northern dialects and in some southern ones. Also, that dictionary does not recognize the word *šarana, but sarana can be found, with the only example sentence being from Voknavolok where sarana is preceded by "šoa šartti", which suggests that sarana may be an exception word where no š variant exists. Mölli-Möllerö (talk) 19:35, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Mölli-Möllerö: Wait a second, Karjalan kielen Sanakirja uses non-orthographic transcription, so that shouldn't be used as any indicator for what form is used by which dialect. "s" could easily be pronounced as [ʃ] ~ [s̠] ~ [ʂ] (as it does in Ingrian for example), which would mean every scientific notation would be different. I'm almost certain that Zaykov would give the s-form, judging by him constantly only giving s-forms (syy; suora; silmä; seisuo; salpa; se): all of these are mainly given as š-forms in KKS usexes. "šana" isn't recognised by the dictionary either by the way, so I believe only the first word given (i.e. the entry name) is the orthographic variant. Thadh (talk) 20:47, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I have found a dictionary by Zaykov, it listes "sana" and "sanakirja" as with an "s". A possibility is that "šana(kirja)" are alternative forms of the s-forms, in both the Tver and minor dialects, but I don't think giving it as South Karelian is misplaced, since Tver is undoubtedly South Karelian. Maybe we could create Tver Karelian as an extra category under South Karelian, to put such forms there? Thadh (talk) 16:53, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would definitely support that. Mölli-Möllerö (talk) 21:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Surjection could you help out? Thanks :) Thadh (talk) 21:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Thadh There should now be a Category:Tver Karelian — surjection ⟨??⟩ 08:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Surjection could you help out? Thanks :) Thadh (talk) 21:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would definitely support that. Mölli-Möllerö (talk) 21:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I have found a dictionary by Zaykov, it listes "sana" and "sanakirja" as with an "s". A possibility is that "šana(kirja)" are alternative forms of the s-forms, in both the Tver and minor dialects, but I don't think giving it as South Karelian is misplaced, since Tver is undoubtedly South Karelian. Maybe we could create Tver Karelian as an extra category under South Karelian, to put such forms there? Thadh (talk) 16:53, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Mölli-Möllerö: Wait a second, Karjalan kielen Sanakirja uses non-orthographic transcription, so that shouldn't be used as any indicator for what form is used by which dialect. "s" could easily be pronounced as [ʃ] ~ [s̠] ~ [ʂ] (as it does in Ingrian for example), which would mean every scientific notation would be different. I'm almost certain that Zaykov would give the s-form, judging by him constantly only giving s-forms (syy; suora; silmä; seisuo; salpa; se): all of these are mainly given as š-forms in KKS usexes. "šana" isn't recognised by the dictionary either by the way, so I believe only the first word given (i.e. the entry name) is the orthographic variant. Thadh (talk) 20:47, 10 February 2021 (UTC)