pomelo predates grapefruit (1696 vs 1750), so this can't be "originally". we have grapefruit covered as sense 3, so what's missing?
I don't understand what you mean. The word "pomelo" may predate the word "grapefruit", but apparently it meant what we usually call a grapefruit, not Citrus maxima.
I don't like what we have as sense 3, namely "(by extension, loosely) The family of hybrids derived from this tree, particularly the grapefruit." The reason it means grapefruit is not by extension. It's simply that that was the original meaning of "pomelo". And as far as I know, there are no hybrids other than grapefruit.
@Eric Kvaalen: It's confusing. I was referring to pomelo the plant, not the word. The way I understand it is that pomelo is the "original" plant (and word). Cross-fertilization with the Jamaican sweet orange yielded the grapefruit. Initially they were believed to be the same plant so pomelo was used for both. It was only shown much later that grapefruit is a distinct plant, and that's probably when grapefruit emerged (early 19th c). Putting the grapefruit sense first with "originally" is confusing, because they are different fruits. Wikipedia has a detailed list of pomelo descendants, the grapefruit is just one of many. – Jberkel22:05, 16 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Jberkel: You may be right, though I would like to know what your source of information is saying that the word "pomelo" was applied to Citrus maxima before 1750. According to this reference from the Grapefruit article, it was called "shaddock", at least in the Caribbean. But still, the word "pomelo" is not applied to hybrids other than grapefruit! So I still don't like what is written for sense #3. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 06:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Jberkel: That's what I think, but I'm not sure. At least in English. By the way, in French "pomelo" is often used to mean grapefruit, although there is some confusion about which term to use for which. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Eric Kvaalen: It's very unlikely. Grapefruits were first documented in 1750 (then just called 'shaddock' or 'forbidden fruit'). The word "pomelo" is first attested over a hundred years later (1858, according to Online Etymology Dictionary). I haven't found any evidence that it was initially exclusively used in the sense "grapefruit". – Jberkel09:02, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
Another hybrid dominated by pomelo DNA (hybridized with Citrus medica (citron) is the bitrouni lime, lime being a term applied to many citrus hybrids, the fruit of which is green when ripe. Wikicommons has a nice ternary diagram placing various citrus hybrids of C. reticulata (true mandarin), C. maxima (pomelo), and C. medica (citron). Judging from the diagram, no produce-store fruit is especially closely related to either pomelo or citron.
But we are interested in usage. I have RfVed the 3rd sense of pomelo, in hopes of finding evidence of what hybrid fruit is called pomelo. DCDuring (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
I can find various speculative etymologies (some suggesting origin in a south Indian language) and alternative spellings. I am not sure that we can rely on Online Etymology Dictionary, however good a source it usually is.
I've requested translations in a few south Indian languages. It might be better to have requested them in the "old" languages, though such names may be hard to find attested.
But doesn't it seem that the route is from some south Indian language to French/Dutch pamplemousse, then to English, influenced by pome and melon. The late attestation of pomelo makes it seem that the word may have been selected for marketing reasons. DCDuring (talk) 14:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
The Century definition is instructive:
"A variety of the shaddock, smaller than the shaddock proper, but much larger than an orange; the grapefruit. Also called forbidden-fruit. Compare pompelmous."
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@Jberkel: If the word "pomelo" is first attested in 1858, then that shows that it was not used for the shaddock during the 200 years or so that the shaddock was known to English speakers. And the Century entry cited above by @DCDuring seems to confirm what I'm saying, that "pomelo" was originally used for the grapefruit.
DCDuring, it's quite sure that the word "pomelo" was used for the grapefruit. That doesn't need verification. But I don't think there's any reason to think it was applied to other hybrids of the shaddock. Which is why I did the edit which started this whole discussion.
@Eric Kvaalen, DCDuring: I found an interesting cite Special:Diff/51494072/51568398 regarding pomelo vs grapefruit. Maybe "grapefruit" got its strict (Citrus paradisi) sense later and was initially just a synonym/marketing term for pomelos in general. On the same page I found a mention of a "red-fleshed variety of the pomelo", which could be what we now mean by "grapefruit". – Jberkel11:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
One wonders why, if shaddock was already established, there was a need for a new term for exactly the same thing. I would therefore hypothesize that there was something different about the fruit. Perhaps the difference was as slight as the difference between a mandarin and a tangerine, ie, place of origin or shipment (China/Asia vs. Morocco). DCDuring (talk) 13:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
@DCDuring, Eric Kvaalen: Somewhere it was suggested that pomelo and grapefruit are just non-local names for shaddock. Either that or, as the other definitions suggest, the new name was necessary to distinguish newer varieties from plain old shaddocks. If pomelo then meant exactly what we have grapefruit defined as currently (Citrus paradisi) is another matter. – Jberkel19:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
Wiki Commons has botanical drawings for species and Category:Paintings of grapefruits on Wikimedia Commons.Wikimedia Commons . It might be possible to make inferences from those. There is a book: Citrus: A History (2008). Also a multivolume work The Citrus Industry, of which volume 1 is subtitled History, World Distribtion, Botany and Varieties. The botanical drawings seem like a good bet, as they are mostly from 18th and 19th century. DCDuring (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
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@Jberkel, DCDuring: Sorry to have been absent so long -- I didn't see the alerts. First, just a little question to DCDuring: Is the difference between your pronunciation of bad and of lad the same as described at w:Pronunciation of English ⟨a⟩#Bad–lad split? (Supposedly it's an Australian or English thing.)
Very interesting quote, Jberkel, about how we shouldn't use the term "grapefruit"! Which just goes to show that the word pomelo was the original term for grapefruit. As for the "red-fleshed variety", I don't think that would mean all grapefruit. Grapefruit can have yellowish flesh or pink flesh.
So what do we do with our article? As I have said, I don't agree with what we have at present for sense 3. And the Century entry seems to confirm the version I did, saying that "pomelo" originally meant the grapefruit.
I think WP needs an article on my idiolect. For me it isn't just a matter of length. In lad I don't think I have any diphthong at all, even when lengthening the vowel for emphasis. Predicate bad (but not usually attributive bad) has a clear diphthongish sound to my ears. All to be taken with salt as I have only been listening to such details of speech over the last ten years, which coincides with my tinnitus.
I don't know what to do about our definitions. I'd be inclined to imitate other dictionaries for the definition itself and add a usage note about changes rather than have separate definitions. If we can find scholarly support for specific different definitions, preferably with multiple citations, we might take a chance on more. DCDuring (talk) 14:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
Another interesting quote:
“When this new fruit was adopted into cultivation and the name grapefruit came into general circulation, American horticulturists viewed that title as so inappropriate that they endeavored to have it dropped in favor of "pomelo". However, it was difficult to avoid confusion with the pummelo, and the name grapefruit prevailed“ (source)
This suggests that for a short period of time, the grapefruit was called "pomelo" (by some horticulturists), but the name never caught on. Why would they use the same name for something obviously new and different? Or was the distinction between pummelo-pomelo? The article also mentions that pomelos were never commercially grown, the grapefruit was the first successful pomelo-like fruit. – Jberkel23:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
It is not easy to tell what writers were referring to when using the word pomelo. Part of the problem is that modern produce-store fruits, except mandarin oranges, are all hybrids, somewhat distant from any single wild species. Further, the citruses hybridize in the wild as well. DCDuring (talk) 15:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
It does not help to reduce the confusion that the grapefruit (C. ×paradisi) is commonly called pomelo in Afrikaans, Basque and French (like here). --Lambiam18:34, 3 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
This might be a dated and uncommon U.S. and Caribbean usage. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7] The phrasing is frequently unclear but in these cases if "pomelo or grapefruit" appears they seem synonyms, but sometimes the scientific name given is Citrus grandis or Citrus trifoliata rather than Citrus (×) paradisi. The rare results from Commonwealth locations tend to be mentions. [8]←₰-→Lingo BingoDingo (talk) 10:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
I agree that the usage is dated or historical and principally US. The numerous taxonomic synonyms and the natural and man-made hybridization only make it harder to determine what the referents are. DCDuring (talk) 09:45, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
@DCDuring, Lambiam, Lingo Bingo Dingo: I did not see the "RFV", and I still do not agree with the present definition #3. The word was used for what we now call grapefruit, not for other hybrids. And I don't think it's just "US, Caribbean". Look at the "Century" definition mentioned above: "A variety of the shaddock, smaller than the shaddock proper, but much larger than an orange; the grapefruit. Also called forbidden-fruit. Compare pompelmous." I have asked a friend of mine to send me what the Oxford English Dictionary says, but he never gets around to it! Eric Kvaalen (talk) 06:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Eric Kvaalen, DCDuring, Lingo Bingo Dingo — I think we need more clarity on the suggestion forwarded above by Jberkel that the term “grapefruit” may initially have been just a synonym for ”pomelo” in a broad sense and have gotten its strict Citrus paradisi sense only later. In this connection the Century definition of grapefruit is of interest:
(n) grapefruit The pomelo, a smaller variety of the shaddock, Citrus decumana: so called in the markets of the northern cities of the United States, probably from its grape-like flavor. It is now successfully cultivated in Florida. See pomelo, shaddock.
(The 1893 edition has Citrus Aurantium decumana.) The wording is slightly ambiguous. Is it to be read as: The pomelo (a smaller variety of the shaddock aka Citrus decumana), or as: The pomelo (a smaller variety of the shaddock), aka Citrus decumana? On first reading, I took it to be the latter. However, the Century Dictionary also defines “shaddock” as Citrus decumana. On Wikipedia, Citrus decumana redirects to Grapefruit – the text of which does not contain the term “Citrus decumana”, but Wikispecies redirects to Citrus maxima, aka Aurantium decumana, aka (English vernacular names) “pomelo, pummelo, pommelo, Chinese grapefruit, jabong, lusho fruit, pompelmous, Papanas, shaddock”. --Lambiam09:39, 13 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
For the current taxonomic names of all the taxonomic names used in this discussion, see the following from the not-quite-definitive source on taxonomic plant names (vernacular names from other sources, esp. GRIN):
I throw my hands up when it comes to historical vernacular names: The taxonomic referents are not stable; the drawings are imperfect (faded colors, etc); photography was black and white and not common; geographic variation was significant; hybridization, natural and manmade, was common. Also many UK writers have been influenced by Continental names. DCDuring (talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Eric Kvaalen, Lambiam, DCDuring You are quite correct that pomelo is often glossed Citrus paradisi, often equated in the same sources with Citrus maxima var. uvacarpa. If you want to narrow that definition down to grapefruit, be my guest. As for the area labels, I do object to removing them from definition 3. The OED (2nd ed.) restricts sense 1 to the East Indies, which by the way doesn't seem entirely correct because this meaning also seems to be used in Hawaii and perhaps the American South West(?), and states that sense 3 applies "in America", which may cover the Caribbean as well. If you want the labels to cover a larger area there should be evidence of wider usage. I doubt that Google Books is going to be useful for that, one would likely need a newspaper or magazine corpus.
In my view the last three links (currently links 5, 6 , 7) given by me in the above RFV discussion are best taken as supporting the sense grapefruit (C. paradisi) whatever the flaws of historical nomenclature, but the other cites and links probably do not. ←₰-→Lingo BingoDingo (talk) 08:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
@Eric Kvaalen Sense 1 is "shaddock", sense 3 is "grapefruit". These are the OED's definitions:
a. In the East Indies, a synonym of the pompelmoose or shaddock (Citrus grandis). b. In America, applied to the variety or sub-species of Citrus, also called ‘grapefruit’ and (in the English market) ‘forbidden fruit’. Also = grapefruit. Also attrib.
@DCDuring, Lambiam, Lingo Bingo Dingo: Thanks Lingo. Does it give any dated quotes? Anyway, this supports what I've been saying, namely that "pomelo" does not mean "any of the citrus hybrids derived from" the shaddock, as our Wiktionary entry says. We have no support for saying that. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 12:29, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
Yes, quite a few, from the 1850s to the 1970s. Most either referred to C. grandis or were in my view at least somewhat ambiguous without additional context. ←₰-→Lingo BingoDingo (talk) 12:43, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
I agree that that we have not yet found any support for "any of the citrus hybrids derived from" the shaddock. If we ever find some we can add some similar phrase. In any event, there is plenty of ambiguity in the vernacular names of second-tier citrus fruits, not to mention the steady flow of hybridization. We don't have to add to the confusion. DCDuring (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
@DCDuring, Lambiam, Lingo Bingo Dingo: I'm not sure I understand. Lingo, can you prove that "pomelo" was used for hybrids other than the grapefruit? And DC, when you say we shouldn't add to the confusion, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? (That we should just say "grapefruit" and not other hybrids.) Eric Kvaalen (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
We don't yet have any evidence that specifically supports any hybrid other than the grapefruit. I didn't come across any in my searches for cites supporting definition 3. I also haven't yet found any other dictionary or glossary that has such a definition. When, as, and if we get some evidence favoring such looser definition, we can add it or adjust an existing definition. DCDuring (talk) 20:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
But it also looks uncertain to me that some of the older sources specifically meant C. paradisi when using the term “grapefruit”. Before science-based taxonomic clarity arises and percolates to the general public, the use of common names for unfamiliar species tends to be all over the place, sometimes persisting long after the dust has settled. Just look at the confusion with the name yam and in Portuguese with cará, or English versus French endive. --Lambiam22:13, 18 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
They probably meant something strongly resembling or ancestral to our C. paradisi. We don't have any pre-Linnean cites in our entry. I'm unprepared to dismiss pre-DNA taxonomy, botany, and horticulture as unscientific. It has taken a long time for biology to operationalize the evolutionary species concept, but pre-DNA taxonomy has value, at least until proven inadequate.
It is instructive to try to understand how various species (or forms, varieties, etc of species) got the names (both vernacular and scientific) they have had. That's one reason to have images, etymologies etc. DCDuring (talk) 01:18, 19 October 2019 (UTC)Reply
Category:Paintings of grapefruits on Wikimedia Commons.Wikimedia Commons . It might be possible to make inferences from those. There is a book: Citrus: A History (2008). Also a multivolume work The Citrus Industry, of which volume 1 is subtitled History, World Distribtion, Botany and Varieties. The botanical drawings seem like a good bet, as they are mostly from 18th and 19th century. DCDuring (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
