Talk:hopia

Etymology

@Mlgc1998 Why isn't it a Tagalog loan? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Why is it a Tagalog loan? The spelling presented in English packaging and marketing in filchi businesses selling these seems to just be trying to approximate the Hokkien pronunciation. The pronunciation of /ˈhopjaʔ/ with a glottal stop may be a very Tagalog or local Ph thing to pronounce the word, but the English word might not always necessarily be read that way. A non-Tagalog/Cebuano speaker might read this word "hopia" without knowing any Tagalog or Cebuano and the etymology would just be left with the English term solely pointing to the Hokkien term. Other modern filchi food loaned into Ph. English is like this too, with the others we just know it went through Tagalog because the Tagalized pronunciation was shown in the spelling, but for food terms like this, it doesn't seem to be necessarily showing the Tagalog pronunciation. Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:29, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: This would be in the topic of etymological intermediaries. For example, do you think the word "hopia" entered Tagalog first before English? If yes, the next question is, which one is more likely, Tagalog had language contact with English, or Philippine Hokkien had language contact with English? Given the slow and gradual process of English spreading in the Philippines in the 20th century, I'd say the former, Tagalog had lots of language contact with English (or Philippine English). So, the reasonable transition is Hokkien -> Tagalog -> English. Same thing with how Sanskrit loanwords in Tagalog generally had a Malay intermediary. It passed to Malay before coming to Tagalog.

By the way, I personally find the etymology of 好餅 to be dubious, because it's not an existing word in Hokkien. The word "hopya" itself is obviously from Hokkien because of the last syllable "-pya" being 餅 meaning 'pastry', but I'm doubtful whether "ho" is really 好, but that's just my personal opinion. I have no alternative theory to back it up, so this is just a side comment lol.--Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:27, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser This one is a food product kasi that people present to the market so one would usually go with using the formal lingua franca language in the marketing first, just like with Spanish before like pancit and asado. It would've been colloquially spoken first through Tagalog upon household introduction but then when it came time to formally write the word down and present it as a commercial product in Chinese Deli stores, it had to enter Ph. English product packaging and menus and the "hopia" spelling encapsulates the Hokkien pronunciation well in English without having to show any Tagalog side besides if one chooses to pronounce it that way, just like cuapao, siomai, siopao, hofan, etc., so in the early life of this word, it would've been spread simultaneously in a short time to both Tagalog and Ph. English due to of course the presence of bilingual English-Tagalog knowledge of educated filchi and non-filchi in the early span of time when this was first introduced. With words like lumpia, we know this one had to go through Tagalog cuz 潤／润 (lūn) turned into "lum-" that Tagalog likes to do before ⟨P⟩ and ⟨B⟩ like in interfix -m-. WIth other likewise food presented in Chinese Deli stores like tikoy as well, many went through Tagalog and afaik, Deli stores like Eng Bee Tin later fully accepted the shift to using Tagalog or Taglish in their marketing scheme to embed the products more into Filipino cuisine products like the other products that got cemented in during Spanish times. Some of the food products need not have gone through Tagalog first tho to get to Ph. English due to it's formal prestige status since American era, just like with Spanish before. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yup that's what I meant when Tagalog is the etymological intermediary. That's why it's Hokkien -> Tagalog -> English.

By the way, in my opinion, the current etymology is really either lacking or partly wrong. Someone has got to explain where 好餅 comes from, since it's not a word existing in Hokkien. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser For this word, it still doesn't show the morphological Tagalog influence in the word itself if one didn't pronounce it in a Tagalog way. It still makes sense for there to be a simultaneous diffusion of Hokkien -> English & Hokkien -> Tagalog, where "hopia" is the English form and "hopya" is the Tagalog form, at least that KWF recommends as spelling. As for the Hokkien term where it comes from, I remember it was Chan-Yap(1980) that mentioned it was 好餅 at p.137 Mlgc1998 (talk) 18:49, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I know that 好餅 is found in Chan-Yap, I meant that 好餅 isn't a Hokkien word, it doesn't exist. The Chinese word for "hopia" is 侯皮亞, directly from the Tagalog word, since it doesn't exist in Chinese. But I agree it's the best etymology we have so far. As for simultaneous diffusion, no, because the earliest attestation I can find of "hopya" is from 1937, in "Ang wika at baybaying Tagalog" (in the spelling "hopya"), whereas the earliest attestation of "hopia" in English doesn't come until decades later. So Hokkien -> Tagalog -> English (Philippine English). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser It doesn't have to be one Hokkien word. This one looks to be two Hokkien words stringed together for marketing purposes. I'm just not sure if Chan-Yap(1980) ever saw it written on packaging before or what the original packaging long ago looked like and which Chinese Deli store company presented it first to the public besides the big popular ones these days. Also, why would "侯皮亞" be from Tagalog if Mandarin really just couldn't write "pia" with one character. They'd still go with something like "píyà" even when having first read "hopia" or hearing "hó piáⁿ". Also, the Philippine English term could've sourced the term back from Hokkien itself directly even if the loan into Tagalog was recorded first. Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:35, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The idea of marketing purposes is a possibility, but there's no proof. Listen, I'm not trying to remove the etymology 好餅, since it's still the best etymology so far, all I'm saying is that it's incomplete. It seems like hopia was already popular in the 1930's. So either there was a business that really marketed it like that (since hopia in its local form doesn't exist in China) or it comes from a similar word.

Also, I don't understand what you said about Mandarin. As for Philippine English, there's a very clear reason why it's not Hokkien to English. Because there's no Hokkien word 好餅 in the first place. Question, if Hokkien speakers in the mid 20th century don't say 好餅, how can English borrow it from Hokkien? But during that time, Tagalog speakers say "hopya", so obviously Tagalog -> English. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Sorry I seem to have forgotten to tag you here. Anyway, I also saw you added "hó-piáⁿ" as the Hokkien translation of "hopia" in English. Legit question though, have you actually heard Filipino-Chinese in the Philippines say "hó-piáⁿ" complete with the correct tone and the nasal ending? Because for me, I've never heard it. People usually pronounce it the Tagalog way, with a glottal stop in the end. By the way, that's the reason for my reply above this. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I have a suspicion it might have something to do with Ho-Land Hopia and that company's fixation over "Ho". As for "hó-piáⁿ", I asked my dad and atsi if calling the food "hó-piáⁿ" seemed normal enough than just /ˈhopjaʔ/ and they seemed to say that calling it "hó-piáⁿ" was normal and my dad tried to type and show the characters "好餅" to me and my atsi was saying /ˈhopjaʔ/ was the 番仔話 one. The form with and without glottal stop doesn't sound too far apart, so i'm not sure the level of pervasiveness of each pronunciation among ph hokkien speakers. Mlgc1998 (talk) 12:48, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: That's interesting, but in my experience, I've never caught a PH Hokkien speakers, especially the older ones, say hó-piáⁿ casually in a conversation. It's kinda different when you explicitly ask someone. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:59, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yeah, I asked my mom, she doesn't hear people say "hó-piáⁿ". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:08, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I guess the Tagalog marketing worked very well and got normalized already then. It's like those surnames people have that people always pronounce in the Tagalog way now like Chua, Uy, Ng, etc. Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:27, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: The thing is, no one in Mainland China says "hó-piáⁿ" also. So what's our basis to say that "hó-piáⁿ" existed in the Filipino-Chinese community in the first place? I say, we don't have one. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser why would they? this particular food is a filchi cuisine thing that Indonesia also got but they called theirs bakpia and for some reason, the deli stores here decided to call it hopia. Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:33, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Another point is "lumpiya" which ends in a glottal stop in Tagalog, but is "lūn-piáⁿ" in Hokkien. And Fil-Chi people today still say "lūn-piáⁿ". What explains the fact that we still say "lūn-piáⁿ" but not "hó"-piáⁿ". Easy answer: we never said "hó-piáⁿ" in history. That's the best explanation for it, I think. I would love to be proven wrong though, but we kinda need proof that it was said before. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:36, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser it sounds like something a certain company intentionally coined like how Chinoy & Tsinoy was coined by the people from Bahay Tsinoy museum Mlgc1998 (talk) 13:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Yes, that sounds possible, but we gotta find proof. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Derived terms

@Mlgc1998 It seems like you're including every flavor that Eng Bee Tin has, which I don't think passes attestation. Like "hopia durian" by Eng Bee Tin and Polland right now. Will we add more in the derived terms when they add new flavors? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:53, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser lol haha not just Eng Bee Tin, there's also Goldilocks, Ho-Land, Polland, Tipas Hopia de Leche, etc. A lot of at least the classic flavors seem to be talked about in cookbooks, cooking websites, and local side street bakeries. If the new flavors come out in publications, they could be added too. I started adding them cuz Edgie Polistico's Philippine Food, Cooking, & Dining Dictionary (2017) was listing some of them and I was determining which ones were the Tagalog and English forms, despite the mix use throughout menus, packaging, and marketing material. Mlgc1998 (talk) 12:08, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I guess if it's in a dictionary of Philippine food, it makes sense to add. What I meant was, I feel like we need a certain criterion/criteria for adding, because we can't just add any new flavor that comes out. It won't pass the attestation criteria anyway. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)