Talk:чёрт

Why is чёрта in accusative singular classified as irregular?

I get that черта with an accent on а is irregular but why is чёрта irregular? Samuel4388 (talk) 01:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Samuel4388: True. It’s regular. I don’t know. If I remove the override, it gives two forms for sg. acc. чёрта, черта́ - the 2nd is wrong. @Benwing2, could you help here, please? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:01, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev @Samuel4388 It's because it's animate, and animate nouns normally have the acc sg like the gen sg. Here, there's an override for the gen sg. which is being copied by default to the acc sg. Benwing2 (talk) 07:48, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2, @Samuel4388: OK, thanks. It makes sense now from the code perspective but the labelling is still not right.

Normally, it's correct to say, for masculine animates nouns - acc. sg = gen. sg.

But it's the gen. sg. which is irregular and only for this particular case, they are all vulgar or semi-vulgar (some can be animate but most are inanimate):

ни черта́, ни шиша́, ни хера́, ни хуя́, ни фига́, ни хрена́. (шиш (šiš) is actually "accent-b", so "шиша́" is regular but it's used in the same way, so I added it for completeness).

This irregularity is only valid for gen. sg., not for accusative sg.

In short, the label "△ Irregular" is incorrect for accusative sg. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:42, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev Since this occurs only with ни and only under special circumstances, I think it might be best to not list these forms in the declension tables, but in the Usage notes following the declension or in a footnote. This is what we do in general for weird cases like до́ смерти (where смерти here is unstressed) and other cases with unexpected stress that occur only in restricted circumstances. Benwing2 (talk) 06:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: OK, thanks. Let me think about it.

There are other rude collocations:

1. Nothing (vulgar forms of ничего́ (ničevó) or совсе́м не ... (sovsém ne ...)); not at all: ни черта́, ни шиша́, ни хера́, ни хуя́, ни фига́, ни хрена́ - bugger all, fuck all; not at all

   Extended meanings with "себе́", normal phrase ничего́ себе́! (ničevó sebé!): ни черта́ себе́!, ни шиша́ себе́!, ни хера́ себе́!, ни хуя́ себе́!, ни фига́ себе́!, ни хрена́ себе́! - wow!

2. Too much/many (of): до хера́, до хуя́, до фига́, до хрена́ - shitloads
3. Why?: на хера́, на хуя́, на фига́, на хрена́ - what the hell for, what the fuck for

Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev As an example, if you look at Zaliznyak's dictionary under хрен, it says "1a, R₂ ♢ ни хрена́ (простореч.)". As a more complex example, under шаг, it says "м 3c ♢ два́ (три́, четы́ре) шага́; ни ша́гу; ша́гу нельзя́ ступи́ть; на ка́ждом шагу́; брю́ки узки́ в шагу́". I take it all these examples are idioms where unexpected stress or endings appear, and probably are best handled by usage notes and/or special entries for the expression as a whole. Benwing2 (talk) 06:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)