Talk:-adać
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Ultimateria in topic RFD discussion: October–November 2021
This or -ać[edit]
@Shumkichi Do you think we should keep this, or does it seem more like words with this suffix are better described as having -ać? Vininn126 (talk) 16:21, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 Hey, I didn't respond because I'm not sure and didn't want to just write "idk". But "napaść-napadać" - hmmm, I don't know if we can treat "ś-d(a)" as an alternation. I think "-adać" can be considered a real suffix. Alternatively, "-ać" could be considered the only suffix here with "-ad-" being simply an unetymological, epenthetic element. Shumkichi (talk) 14:36, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- That's fine. In "Gramatyka Języka Polskiego" by Piotr Bąk, he lists ś -> d as an alteration, but I think it may be more an artifact from Proto Slavic, because most people wouldn't consider badać to be related to bóść, despite the fact badać is pretty much just bóść + ać. It makes me wonder how we should great other -ść and -źć verbs, however, because obviously rozgryźć -> rozgryzać doesn't have its own suffix. I also don't think it's unetymological, because -adać is only applied to -ść verbs with a -d stem (as opposed to -ść verbs having an -s or -t stem, see przepaść -> przepasać or spleść, splatać). I think the etymology becomes clear in conjugation, since the -d is apparent in pretty much all stems that would get the -adać suffix (jeść - jadłem, jadać, paść, padłem padać, but pasłem). Personally, I think it's a variation of -ać. Vininn126 (talk) 15:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi Okay, I also talked to some users on the discord, and they agree with my analysis. I'm going to change the currently suffixed words and mark this page for deletion. Vininn126 (talk) 15:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- That's fine. In "Gramatyka Języka Polskiego" by Piotr Bąk, he lists ś -> d as an alteration, but I think it may be more an artifact from Proto Slavic, because most people wouldn't consider badać to be related to bóść, despite the fact badać is pretty much just bóść + ać. It makes me wonder how we should great other -ść and -źć verbs, however, because obviously rozgryźć -> rozgryzać doesn't have its own suffix. I also don't think it's unetymological, because -adać is only applied to -ść verbs with a -d stem (as opposed to -ść verbs having an -s or -t stem, see przepaść -> przepasać or spleść, splatać). I think the etymology becomes clear in conjugation, since the -d is apparent in pretty much all stems that would get the -adać suffix (jeść - jadłem, jadać, paść, padłem padać, but pasłem). Personally, I think it's a variation of -ać. Vininn126 (talk) 15:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 By unetymological, I meant when it comes to the infinitive. It can go both ways: either -ad- is etymological and comes from a Proto-Slavic stem or an affix that's no longer productive, or the personal forms of conjugated verbs, such as "napadłem", were reanalysed at some point as coming from the infinitive so the latter was reshaped. I'm just not sure, tbh when I decided to study linguistics and neophilology, I was deliberately studying everything but Slavistics so I am no authority on anything that's older than Late Middle Polish. Anyway, my point is that maybe we shouldn't delete the suffix so hastily. I can see that you're not a fan of surface etymologies - me neither, but sometimes people reanalyse sound clusters that aren't morphemes etymologically as independent morphemes due to folk etymology, and these new morphemes can become productive, at least for some time, affecting the way some parts of speech are formed. Either way, I couldn't find anything on the Internet that would suggest that "-adać" is a suffix so you're probably right but I just don't like the idea that you treat your Discord friends as an authority xd Shumkichi (talk) 16:07, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi When I say discord, I mean the wiktionary discord, with editors on it xDDD not some random people from discord. I'm not against reanalysis, either. I just don't think there's enough here for that. Vininn126 (talk) 16:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- This suffix isn't surface analysis, it's just adding a suffix to an extended stem. We don't analyse -adnę, -adniesz etc. as endings either. Thadh (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Vininn126 By unetymological, I meant when it comes to the infinitive. It can go both ways: either -ad- is etymological and comes from a Proto-Slavic stem or an affix that's no longer productive, or the personal forms of conjugated verbs, such as "napadłem", were reanalysed at some point as coming from the infinitive so the latter was reshaped. I'm just not sure, tbh when I decided to study linguistics and neophilology, I was deliberately studying everything but Slavistics so I am no authority on anything that's older than Late Middle Polish. Anyway, my point is that maybe we shouldn't delete the suffix so hastily. I can see that you're not a fan of surface etymologies - me neither, but sometimes people reanalyse sound clusters that aren't morphemes etymologically as independent morphemes due to folk etymology, and these new morphemes can become productive, at least for some time, affecting the way some parts of speech are formed. Either way, I couldn't find anything on the Internet that would suggest that "-adać" is a suffix so you're probably right but I just don't like the idea that you treat your Discord friends as an authority xd Shumkichi (talk) 16:07, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).
It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.
Me along with other users do not consider this to be a standard suffix, as noted in the discussion section of that page. I move that it be deleted. Vininn126 (talk) 22:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Shumkichi, Thadh, BigDom, Tashi, KamiruPL Pinging for the sake of discussion. I ask that you read the discussion there, first. Vininn126 (talk) 22:54, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete: As said on the talkpage, this isn't a suffix, it's just how stem extension/change works: -ad(n) + -ać gives -adać. The Russian equivalent endings make it even more obvious: по-пас-ть (po-pas-tʹ) > по-пад-у (po-pad-u) > по-пад-ать (po-pad-atʹ). Same with Polish: paś-ć > pad/n-ę > pad-ać. Thadh (talk) 00:13, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. Fay Freak (talk) 00:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, in case it wasn't clear. Vininn126 (talk) 12:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. Hythonia (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. Yeah, I don't think it's a proper suffix, too Tashi (talk) 22:10, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- RFD-deleted. Ultimateria (talk) 21:34, 9 November 2021 (UTC)