Talk:antiwhite

RFV discussion: September–October 2021

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antiwhite

Rfv-sense "Opposed to white nationalism or white supremacy." Added recently, along with the addition of "globalist" as a synonym of "antiwhite". Really? Although the phrase "antiwhite supremacy" or "anti-white supremacy" gets some hits, I didn't spot "antiwhite" itself used with this meaning. - -sche (discuss) 00:41, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how distinct this sense is from sense 1, "Opposed to white people." Of course in reality you can oppose white supremacy without opposing white people in general, but white supremacists commonly believe that one implies the other, and so they would use sense 1 in this situation. I can see arguments both for and against regarding sense 2 as separate. —Kodiologist (t) 11:20, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Another user added two citations, but they were both clearly actually sense 1 (one literally has "anti-white and pro-Negro"), in addition to not being durable. - -sche (discuss) 05:59, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The same user added a corresponding sense to prowhite which may also need to be RFVed... (also, not topically related, but seemingly unattested: sir, this is an Arby's and sir, this is a Wendy's.) - -sche (discuss) 06:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe I have cited this, but given what I found, I have tweaked the definition, because it seems more opposed to white cultural dominance than opposed to white nationalism. I would appreciate other opinions on what I have found. Kiwima (talk) 06:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

The Ignatiev (2008) cite, with more of the page included, is "I would love it if Irish, Italian, and Jewish Americans rejected their whiteness in favor of ethnic identities, but with few exceptions their claims that their history has given them an understanding of the oppression of black people are self-serving attempts to deny their complicity with white supremacy. Mostly they just want to change the name to play the game. I frequently encounter so-called antiracist white people who fall into metaphysics at the idea of abolishing the white race. They [...] "own" (acknowledge) their whiteness. [...] When I speak publicly, I make a point of distinguishing between being antiwhite, which I am, and being unwhite". He opposes and wants to abolish the concept of white people. (Whether this is really distinct from opposing white people is debatable, I suppose.)

The Turner/Nilsen (2014) cite is summarizing the white supremacist point of view that multiculturalism etc is antiwhite in sense 1, "opposed to / antagonistic to white people", and the Schweppe (2016) citation is explicitly the same thing, so I regard both as sense 1. Consider, for example, if I say beer is such an important part of British culture that someone's proposal to ban beer would be anti-British: this is still using "anti-British" to mean ~"hostile to British people", it does not make "anti-British" mean "hostile to beer".

The Watson (2018) cite seems like the same kind of thing as the Ignatiev cite, and indeed as the 2016 cite in which whites who are antiwhite are "self hating whites", i.e. "antiwhite" still means hating/opposing whites. No?

After I RFVed this, I realized that the user who added this sense has also added the same sense on multiple lines, while combining distinct senses on one line, and added separate words ("Christian") as alternative forms of other words ("bag"), and in general, while much of the content they have added is helpful once revised, their grasp of what constitutes a separate sense from a lexicographic perspective seems somewhat limited(?). (Had I realized that at the time, I might've just dropped or merged the added sense straightaway.) - -sche (discuss) 18:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps it would make sense to combine senses like "Opposed to white people or to whiteness" or "Opposed to white people, to whiteness, or to white cultural domination"? - -sche (discuss) 18:07, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea, unless there are sufficient unambiguous citations of the separate definitions. In any event, the combination would be without prejudice against the future creation of separate definitions. DCDuring (talk) 16:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

RFV-resolved Kiwima (talk) 03:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)