Talk:good law

RFD discussion: August–November 2016

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good law

Maybe this is a term of art, but it looks to me like it's SOP. I can see this construction applied with other modifiers: bad law, better law, worse law. It may be that we need to improve the definitions at good or law to cover this usage: this seems to hinge on an uncountable sense of law. Not that it's unique to law: other disciplines can be referred to similarly- good writing, good acting, good lexicography. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

If there's a legal definition of good (or any definition for that matter) that means 'still valid' then you have a point. The definition isn't 'a law which is positive and beneficial' but 'a law that's still valid' which is completely different. This is a clear keeper. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

I can't see any usage of this term with this meaning. If OK, why should it be uncountable? SemperBlotto (talk) 16:01, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

As a law academic, I'd say that good law and bad law are terms in use in legal circles. Perhaps we should add to good the sense of "valid". I note that we have the sense "useful for a particular purpose; functional" (with the example "the flashlight batteries are still good"), which is rather close in meaning. Perhaps it can be expanded to include the "valid" sense? Apart from good law, this sense of good arises in other contexts, such as "these coupons are still good" (they haven't expired yet, so are still valid). — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Keep. See, e.g., David Hricik, Law School Basics: A Preview of Law School and Legal Reasoning (2016), p. 100: "Verify that your cases are good law". If a citation is valid, it is good law. If fifty citations are valid, they are good law.

Further examples:

• Suzan D. Herskowitz, ‎James E. Duggan, Legal Research Made Easy (2005), p. 96: "How can you be sure that these cases are good law? How do you know that these cases have not been overruled or reversed?"
• Warner v. Sickles, (Ohio), Wright, J., in ‎John Crafts Wright, Reports of Cases at Law and in Chancery: Decided by the Supreme Court of Ohio (1835), p. 82: "Both cases are good law, and if here, the husband were dead, and the title remained in the wife, and the bond was sought to be enforced against her, it would be held invalid".

Cheers! bd2412 T 16:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

To modify Renard's example, I think good law may be uncountable because the term doesn't mean "a law which is positive and beneficial" but "law [in the uncountable sense] that is still valid". Roe v. Wade is still good law (not a good law) as it has not been overruled by the U.S. Supreme Court. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. DCDuring TALK 19:33, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

This certainly seems SOP, using the uncountable sense of "law" (also used in e.g. "...is settled law") and a sense of "good" that is also seen in the example above of "the coupons are still good", and (from Google Books) "it is still good dogma that the leadership should not merely hold onto the coattails of society but must...", "it is still good principle to use a pattern in dress rehearsal before cutting flaps in reconstructive rhinoplasty or anywhere else". - -sche (discuss) 20:27, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

There is a distinction between "settled law" and "good law" - "settled law" generally refers to a principle (e.g., it is settled law that you can't walk up to a stranger in the street and punch them for no reason"), whereas "good law" generally refers to a specific statute or precedential case. A specific case can be good law in an area that is not at all settled, a circumstance exemplified by the fact that two cases offering conflicting outcomes can both be good law. There is also an issue of lack of antonyms. Law that is not "good law" in the sense of the definition is generally not called "bad law"; it is referred to as being "not good law" or, even more frequently, "no longer good law". bd2412 T 13:15, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

• Keep, this nomination makes no sense. "Good law" does not mean "a law that is good" (the sum of its parts), it means law that is "current and still applicable" (to use the reference's terminology), as opposed to that which has been overturned or otherwise invalidated. Please read the definition before nominating for deletion next time. Augurar (talk) 20:55, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
  • @Augurar: please read the discussion before accusing others next time. :-p You'll notice that we did read the definition, and found that the relevant senses of "good" and "law" are commonly used elsewhere, e.g. "the coupons are still good", "settled law". - -sche (discuss) 20:57, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

The OP's examples ("better law", "good writing") are unrelated to the phrase "good law" in the legal sense. But as you say, the discussion has raised some more coherent objections which need addressing. This passes the WT:SOP test because "its full meaning cannot be easily derived from the meaning of its separate components". I would compare this to phrases like legal tender, statutory rape, etc., in that its meaning is derived from its constituent parts, but when used in a legal context it has a more precise and specific meaning worthy of its own entry. Augurar (talk) 21:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

See also the "prior knowledge" test Augurar (talk) 21:35, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Keep. It doesn't seem to be SOP, not least because it is used without an article, which seems to indicate that it is a single unit, not two used in conjunction with each other. In other words, I don't think it is simply "a law that is good" because one would then expect it to occur as "a good law." Andrew Sheedy (talk) 17:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I am forgetting, however, that the verb "to be" which precedes "good law" in all the above examples may be copulative. My first impression remains the same, however. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree that there's a sense of good that covers this; coupons that are still 'good' are good in a different sense, for one thing that sense of 'good' only ever seems to be used after 'to be'. 'Those coupons are still good' is ok, 'those are good coupons' is not. Even not taking that into account, it's a slightly different sense of 'good' that the one in the entry good. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

But isn't good law also invariably preceded by a form of to be as well? See the quotations mentioned by BD2412 above. The common sense seems to be "functional; in force, valid". — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:38, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

That's not what I meant (I do see the ambiguity though). I was contrasting 'the coupons are good' and 'the good coupons'. 'Good' to be mean valid does not come BEFORE the noun, but with good law it does. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Note: The phrase does not necessarily follow a "to be" verb; e.g.: Stanley Chodorow, ‎Hans Wilhelm Gatzke, ‎Conrad Schirokauer, A History of the World (1986), Volume 1, page 221: "Judges were often stymied in settling cases because both parties could cite good law"; Practicing Law Institute, Tax Strategies for Corporate Acquisitions, Dispositions, Financings, Joint Ventures, Reorganizations, and Restructurings (1999), Volume 11, page 971: "It has been strongly suggested, however, that the cited cases may no longer reflect good law, particularly when considered in light of the 1984 changes to Section 707(a) governing certain transactions between a partner and a partnership". bd2412 T 21:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

• Delete. --WikiTiki89 15:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Why? 73.170.41.47 01:14, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Kept. bd2412 T 15:53, 7 November 2016 (UTC)